[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Ep. 4 Alliance of the golden witch

[maximilianjenus]

Originally Posted by Hareoic

Spoiler for Question about inconsistent recurring theme:

Beatrice says there can't be any magic without love, right? So where's the love when she (supposedly) has everybody on the island slaughtered in such brutal ways?

Spoiler for beatrice theory and current translation of episode 4:

using spoilers just because:
Theory of beatrice is good and is not killing anybody.
First, now we know that the "maria " letters were written by beatrice, so its' obvious beatrice knows about the loop/looping in a similar way to rika, so she sends two letter with the two possible scenarios that she gets to know about the killings.
Second, in the first tea party everybody is blaming the witch for the killings, while batler refuses to accept the existance of the witch and blames a human culprit, right awya beatrice appears and challenges battler to prove it, thu gaining an ally in her quest of finding the culprit-getting out of the loop.
Third, closely related to the previous point in the end of the thrid arc when beatrice goes against eva she proves that eva was the culprit all along by disproving withces.

My theory is that rosa-maria are beatrice, or closely related to if there is an 18th person that is not kinzo. That explains why when maria dies at first or rosa gets a confirmed death (probably, I don't remember how is her corpse's face in episode1) there are no new circles and "everythign goes wrong". and yes, beatrice is not the culprit.

[theacefrehley]

From EP3 - first chapters

いつもなら賑やかに迎えてくれるはずのうみねこの鳴き声が、まったく聞こえなかった
The bustling cries of the seagulls, which would usually come to meet them, was not heard at all.

[izmosmolnar]

Well I don't know what to think than. It is a bit controversial again, as they can be heard quite loudly by the docks.

Spoiler for clarification:

The first time they can be heard is the scene inside the boat when they are wondering wether Eva feels alright as she dozed off, just a few seconds before they announced they've arrived on Rokkenjima.
And they keep weeping until the time she gets out to the docks, Gohda says "welcome to Rokkenjima" and she hallucinates the "welcome back!" by her younger self, followed by Eva pondering about it, her life and other stuff. That's the last time they are present (?) I guess.
I actually didn't find the line you indicated nowhere around those scenes, and they are one of the very first scenes in ep3. I don't know why would the localization would differ in that regard, if that's the unlikely case.

[chronotrig]

You know, you might be on to something there. I never really paid much attention to the ME sound files.

The line ace mentioned is the very last one in chapter 1, which shows up only a few lines after the seagull sound effect stops. Also, the time the sound effect stops is the very instant Eva steps onto Rokkenjima.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this is the only time the seagull ME ever plays during the two day period from October 4-5.

So maybe there were still seagulls around the island, but not on it?

[izmosmolnar]

In all honesty I don't know how to make heads and tails out of that. You guys are right that line was indeed there, I've probably skimmed over that line at first as I was pondering why the seagulls stopped and why they could be heard up to that point.

Spoiler for :

I have no idea why she is missing them anyway, they sure greeted her for about 5 minutes while she was feeling depressed inside the ship's belly .

It's debatable wether they are on the island or around it I guess, depends on everone's definition. I reckon if they can be heard in a medium sized boat docked in a harbor they must be surely close enough to consider them on Rokkenjima, but that's just me. If they are similar to the seagulls around here in Europe, I reckon they would be too lazy to stay in the air for hours anyway.

Yeah I'm fairly sure -apart from the title- that was the only time "when the seagulls cry" (muhahaha pun intended ).
Edit: and of course episode 4 with Ange circa 1998. Just as you said, between the two intervals (October 4-5 '86) that's the only case I can think of.

What I don't understand is, why they were completely missing from episode1 than (I mean the scenes in the middle of the seajourney, by the broken shrine, seeing Gohda first time etc), and why are they so close by in episode 3?
If it's not because of Battler's "influence theory", could it be just a mistake from the creators by being careless and leaving them in for some inexplainable reason?

[Rayneing]

Wait, hang on.

Spoiler for seagulls:

Can the seagulls only be heard from Eva's point of view? If so, there might be something important about that.

[Kitsu]

Spoiler:

Or the story told there was an Illusion like the magic ones or is told later to someone by Eva maybe I dunno because in this scene we had something similar to a flashback a dream..the first scene Eva-Beatrice appeared. First we hear Eva tell her to go to college and finding a husband then in the next sentences she talks about George and how to get him to succed and then how she felt bad for wanting Jessica to be told off because she is a woman and such. Then we hear "Eva-Beatrice" talking about solving the epitaph and with that getting the title of the head. Which is rather strange~ because that happened later, so maybe it's told by someone
also in the boat trip the seagulls stop crying after Kumasawa enters to look after Hideyoshi and Eva. And then star again after Gohda appears. And no the seagulls are heart in the normal perspective not in Eva's

[izmosmolnar]

Originally Posted by Rayneing

Wait, hang on.

Spoiler for seagulls:

Can the seagulls only be heard from Eva's point of view? If so, there might be something important about that.

No, the story is described there from a neutral third viewpoint (ergo an ethereal spectator, or possibly Meta-Battler's, or if we can believe my aforementioned "theory", the "meta-player's" perspective), and it remains like that even when we read the above line ("The lively cries of the seagulls, which usually greeted them when they arrived, couldn't be heard at all" in the patched version). Despite that contraversially the seagulls greeted them by whineing loudly the entire time just before she put her foot on the island 5 lines earlier.

Spoiler for "I've given some additional thoughts. Don't take it at face value, It includes some really far-fetched, mind-numbing, improbable theories.:

I doubt we changed locations in those 5 lines (except darkening the screen as everyone can see), and unless the seagulls quickly muted themselves for some mysterious reason ( , more on that later), or flew away in a supersonic speed because Eva scared them by stepping onto the Island, I believe that's going to be likely disputable for now at the very least.

To be perfectly blunt, with all the factors considering, I suppose the only thing it can prove is
-the spectator/player has incorrect hearing,
-the spectator/player hallucinated the sounds, but other than that his/her hearing is ok
-the spectator/player hallucinated that they've actually stopped, but his/her hearing is ok
-Nobody is delusional in ep3, it was actually Battler's delusion in episode 1 that they are missing (in which case why they suddenly stopped crying in ep3, and why didn't we take notice of them a bit before, why are we deliberately ignoring them from a bit earlier / trying to forget them?)
-nobody is delusional, the seagulls stopped crying for some other reason by themselves (I opine that's unlikely, because in that case why they kept quiet/missing throughout the whole time in ep1? )
-nobody is delusional, the seagulls keep crying the entire time, but they can't be heard because they flew away, at the exact same time Eva stepped on Rokkenjima (then again where were they, and why they behaved differently in ep1?)
-nobody is delusional, the seagulls keep crying the entire time, but we actually changed locations throughout that 5 lines while the screen is dark, and that's the reason the seagulls can't be heard. (I reckon that's quite stupid. Imagine Eva stepping down from the boat, pushing her hands on her ears and running away )
or it's just a mistake by the creators to hear them in the first place (that's unlikely, at least I personally don't want to believe that)

Of course none of the above makes much sense.

Or it's also possibly proves that the player's/metabattler's viewpoint (the one we usually see the story after episode1) is quite contradictional itself, in which case only ep1's Battler's perspective can be trusted, and lot of the events happening after that can be regarded as a mind trick or something, and can't be taken entirely true.
If the case is indeed one of the above mentioned, and that'd be the real reason of the contradiction, the spectator/player can hallucinate almost every event in the game (except I believe episode 1 as it was almost completely in real life Battler's (not to be confused with Meta-Battler's) viewpoint).

edit: inbefore psychologists. no unfortunately despite how I tried to understand it, I'm not really grasping the difference between Delusion and Hallucination. That's the reason I'm confusing them so freely here.

[Kitsu]

Like I already said:

Spoiler:

The seagulls stop crying the time Kumasawa comes inside the boat to look after Hideyoshi and Eva. They stop and then when Gohda comes in again they star again. I would think this is a lot more strange. Also that Eva dreams of the future~

[izmosmolnar]

Well I tend to believe that's just because for a dramatizing effect with no real consequence or cause (I mean they still crying but the game chooses not to show it), and the appearance/disappearance of said characters (or Eva's prophecy) have no parallelism with the seagulls' actions.

Spoiler for again far-fetched theories in case I'm wrong:

Even if we know Eva is insane or delusional, that shouldn't explain why the seagulls are crying once, go mute a bit later, then start again, and completely vanish upon she disembarks (plus we even forget about them). Or even what they were doing in ep1. The viewpoint wasn't Eva's perspective so I can't see how her mood or attention could interfere with the player/viewer's ability to hear the seagulls' cry (provided they aren't imaginary of course).
I can't understand how Kumasawa's actions could change their behaviour, especially if we go with an anti-magic theory.
Even if we suppose Kumasawa (or by any chance Gohda) can order the seagulls by some magical commands, and she cast a spell on the player/viewer to forget them a bit later, she wouldn't gain anything with that. That's probably the most unlikely scenario I guess.

Or I could explain it in such far-fetched laughable way that the player/viewer is on guard against Kumasawa and upon seeing her he/she concentrates so much, tries to absorb her completely that the seagull's cry escapes his/her attention (while they still keep going at it outside), and by Gohda's appearance, the player recollects himself/herself enough to hear them again. That makes even less sense than the already mentioned theories, there is so many wrong points with that and it doesn't explain anything (ep1's absence, sudden silence, forgetfulness etc).

----
However now that I think about it seems more and more likely they aren't there by mistake, as it would be quite shameful to implement the seagulls' cry in the game incorrectly. Hell, their cry is the one that game is named after in the first place after all.

[Jan-Poo]

Spoiler for Seagulls:

I think that all this should bring us to the following question:

Why the seagulls do not cry? Is it because of the typhoon? Or is it because of another reason?

What always bothered me is that even Jessica (who should be used to live on the island and such) is surprised by this sudden silence.

Now it's hard to believe that everyone is hallucinating, besides... i've never heard of hallucinations that prevent you from hearing something that exists, it's always the opposite.
Also we are talking about Seagulls here not cicadas. When seagulls cry you don't just hear them... you see them. If they think there are no seagulls it means they can't see them either.

So the seagulls aren't there, but why aren't they there?

Knowing this could also explain the strange seagulls's behavior in ep3.

[theacefrehley]

I guess they are hust flying around the island, above the sea, but not landed on the island... whatever...

[izmosmolnar]

Originally Posted by theacefrehley

I guess they are hust flying around the island, above the sea, but not landed on the island... whatever...

Well I apologize, I did warned everyone it's an insignificant "issue" . But I've found it kinda contradictional itself inside such a short interval, plus I don't really grasp why are they behaving totally differently comparing it to ep1.

[theacefrehley]

It's just Eva's focus that was shifted because of her childhood voice... whatever... use your imagination ...
Or will you deduce that they were used as ingredients for the siestas?

[izmosmolnar]

Well no, I wouldn't go that far . Well I'm gonna wait and see, I hope they deliberately made it that way (ergo not a mistake on their part), and probably they gonna show us later in the answerarks the reason behind it.

[Auria]

Spoiler for Ep 5 Title?:

Well I already saw on various websites statements, that the title of the 5th episode will be "Curse of the golden Witch" - but google listed nothing more than fansites that used the information without mentioning any sources. Confirmation that this is a rumour please, or I start imagining a strange plot ~! No, wait.. it's not difficult to confirm that something is real, but to confirm something is a rumour before the actual title is announced is like.. devil's proof o_O"

[Marion]

Spoiler for Ep 5 title:

I'm pretty sure it's a rumor for now. We don't know anything for sure until official details come out. Though that will probably happen in the next couple months around summer. If the game follows the same pattern as it has been then Episode 5/First Answer Arc Episode should be out in August.

I wonder if they'll make a modification to the title slightly. They did that with the answer arcs for Higurashi (Higurashi KAI)

[kiby]

I know that it is really useless but i just remembered the jinja's case and I wondered if there is any information about it in ep 4?

[izmosmolnar]

OK I don't understand something again . It involves Ange too, so I reckon that's the appropriate thread to ask it.

Spoiler for ep4:

How come that they set up a setting at the family-dinner for Maria's dad -probably in every scenario-, even though no one knows who he is (yet...), but they completely ignore the existance of Ange? She is having Ushiromiya blood in her too, so most probably she should be sitting next to Battler (I seem to recall Jessy is the older than him), in Natsuhi's place, because she is the next born grandchild after Maria. I seem to remember, I even read it somewhere Ange attended the family conference few times before anyway.

TL;DR: If they sentimentally and futilely set up a place for Maria's dad who most probably never going to show up (well it can happen though, one can never be sure with Ryukishi07), then for what reason they don't set-up one for Ange, who is part of the family by blood?
Especially considering how obsessed Kinzo is with his family-blood/lineage, and how Ange used to attend the meeting too (she only didn't come due to her sickness).

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by izmosmolnar

OK I don't understand something again . It involves Ange too, so I reckon that's the appropriate thread to ask it.

Spoiler for ep4:

How come that they set up a setting at the family-dinner for Maria's dad -probably in every scenario-, even though no one knows who he is (yet...), but they completely ignore the existance of Ange? She is having Ushiromiya blood in her too, so most probably she should be sitting next to Battler (I seem to recall Jessy is the older than him), in Natsuhi's place, because she is the next born grandchild after Maria. I seem to remember, I even read it somewhere Ange attended the family conference few times before anyway.

TL;DR: If they sentimentally and futilely set up a place for Maria's dad who most probably never going to show up (well it can happen though, one can never be sure with Ryukishi07), then for what reason they don't set-up one for Ange, who is part of the family by blood?
Especially considering how obsessed Kinzo is with his family-blood/lineage, and how Ange used to attend the meeting too (she only didn't come due to her sickness).

Spoiler for Dinner:

Actually Ange should sit in front of Battler in place of Maria. It doesn't matter the fact she's younger, she is the daughter of the third sibling so she has precedence over the daughter of the fourth sibling, for the same reason Jessica has precedence over the older George.
As for Maria's father i think this is all a misunderstanding. It is never officially stated that they are leaving a place for him, this is only Battler's saying that in place of Maria's father there's Nanjo. But imho this only means: Maria's father would sit where there's Nanjo now, and it's implicit: "If Maria's father was married with Rosa" not "if he wasn't missing".