2013-11-22, 15:45 | Link #1001 |
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OMG I need an answer. If anyone else has watched the third movie (Rebellion) PLEASE REPLY TO THIS.
Why didn't they let madoka regain her goddess memories and powers before homura could hug her and make them go away. I REALLY WANTED TO SEE WHAT WOULD HAPPEN >:U Are they going to make a continuation for that to happen? SOMEONE TELL ME PL0X. ~Fan Boying so hard~ |
2013-11-22, 18:09 | Link #1002 | |
Otaku Apprentice
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2013-11-22, 21:59 | Link #1003 |
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
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Alright, I've got back from the screening in Paris, and after trying not to be spoiled (which was not perfect because I did see few pictures of posters showing Madoka and Homura in their "final forms"), I sort of could watch the movie with only few apprehensions.
To be blunt, I couldn't really enjoy the movie as much as other people probably could, and I honestly don't have the time nor the energy to check reviews and all. Anyway, considering how long the review is, here it goes. Spoiler for non spoiler review of Madoka Magica: Rebellion:
Now, for those who are more interested in the details without minding spoilers: Spoiler for Spoiler-filled review of Rebellion:
I might polish a bit things here and there, but I needed to this asap, otherwise I wouldn't be able to have the fine details in my mind (and no, camrips are no go).
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2013-11-22, 22:25 | Link #1004 |
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Just got 'round to watching the camrip, and while the movie left me with mixed feelings at first, I gradually came to like it. Homura was my favourite magical girl in the original series, so I feared that I'd end up resenting her, but ended up liking her more. Her transition towards Homucifer could've been smoother, but at the same time it was tragic to watch, and made me sympathize more with her.
The visuals are one of the strongest points of the movie, giving the false Mitakihara an obvious 'illusion-world' feel. In my opinion, it was almost excessive actually, compared to the original series where there was a balance between the humans' world and the witches' worlds. I would've preferred a more ordinary look to the false Mitakihara before Homura exposed the truth behind it. Overall, it was good, definitely looking forward to the HQ version. |
2013-11-22, 22:55 | Link #1005 |
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Japan, Tokyo
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Got a few things to say myself :
- Homura litterally lived as long as Madokami (series acknowledged Madokami was the gestalt of all timelines' Madoka, therefore she knows how much Homura cared), and as such, I don't find it out of place that she'd have emotions or a mindset that go far beyond these a normal human can have. She is litterally a time abyss here, she forgot how many timelines she lived, and Kyubey outright says the number is countless. The very fact she could retain a human-like mindset after that is in and of itself a little miracle, I outright expected her to go insane from the sheer amount of time. - The draining seems to be implied by the very last scene of Episode 12 of the series, but yeah it sort of implied a Long Long After The End, whereas here it feels like she just had to fight a battle in the desert or something. But the point is, this is not important : the fact is, Homura would have eventually faced that fate on her own, this is a given. Spoiler:
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- Kyubey seems to imply he was partly caught in the whole mess against his will (maybe Homura wanting to re-enact her fantasy required Kyubey along with the others?), and had to play along. Spoiler:
- As for Sayaka and Kyoko, Urobuchi-sensei stated in a french interview at Epitanime 2013 this year that it was canon even though they couldn't put it in the series ( http://typemoon.fr/interview-durobuc...pitanime-2013/ http://translate.google.com/translat...tanime-2013%2F ); I personally didn't mind, for me Kyoko was too rough and jaded in the original series to be honest with herself when faced with Sayaka. - Spoiler:
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Last edited by DarkSoul42; 2013-11-22 at 23:40. |
2013-11-23, 04:47 | Link #1006 | |||||
The True Culprit
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Also, Madokami remembers all timelines, but she also inhabits all time and space. I think she has more 'experience' post-ascension. Quote:
Either way, I'm a bit iffy since up until now it didn't seem like a Puella Magi's karmic destiny MATTERED after making the contract, since their wish seems to lock things in place. It's not like Mami and company got stronger over the timelines or anything. Quote:
I'm kind of remiss to think what the Law of Cycles will do without a compassionate, beating heart to guide it. The only other context we have for emotionless forces is Kyubey, afterall. Quote:
Also, Nagisa and Sayaka seem to be special cases, since they claim they were holding Madoka's memory and power. Their witch-mode stuff could stem from that. Quote:
If ever Homulilly were to be capable of hatching, Madoka could act. Though the fact that Kyubey could block off a being he couldn't even observe from outside the universe from doing magical stuff he doesn't understand using non-magical methods is frankly stupid on all sorts of levels so the movie kind of falls apart there.
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2013-11-23, 04:58 | Link #1007 | |
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And speaking of that, I would just like to say that that theory posted earlier about how this happened due to Homura's and Madoka's wishes contradicting each other? Probably the most plausible explanation for this whole thing I've heard yet.
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2013-11-23, 05:39 | Link #1008 | ||||||
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Also, the thing is he did not actually block Madokami, what happened is : Spoiler:
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2013-11-23, 05:47 | Link #1009 | ||||
The True Culprit
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...Why? How? That makes zero sense to me. It's like telling Zeus he can't throw lightning at you because you have an umbrella up, nener nener. Heck, what does "seal off a Soul Gem from outside influence" even MEAN if the agent doing the influencing is outside of time, space, and the world's non-magical laws of existence. I'm pretty sure that outside of special cases like Rebellion, you can't observe Madokami on any sort of scientific device. How do you lock that out? I mean, hell, the barrier isn't even blocking out light bouncing back. It's NONSENSE, but it's necessary for the movie to function on any level.
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2013-11-23, 06:08 | Link #1010 | |
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So the way I see it, Kyubey was just lucky on this attempt because of Homura and Madoka's connection. Then again, I might be totally wrong, because we don't know what this process would do to any other magical girl. I'm just formulating an hypothesis based on what the movie gives, and that reaches the conclusion that human emotions are FAR more powerful than what meets the eye, and that they can even screw up universal forces when the conditions are right. (...which happens to be the point Homura makes, and why I say that strictly within the confines of their worlds, "complete witches" would give Madokami a run for her money) |
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2013-11-23, 06:57 | Link #1011 | |||
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"When a soul gem is already at its limit... And it's closed off from any outside influence... What do you think will happen? An experiment... If we isolate the soul gem, the source of magical girls redemptive and destructive powers... When the Law of Cycles comes to take you away... What happens to the soul gem? The results we witnessed were very interesting! The rules we set forth to govern this closed space has conditionally set out to capture the girl who sacrificed herself. Without a doubt, this is just like what you explained before about the witches' powers. In the isolation field, the soul gem is being protected from shattering and so, in turn you can't fully turn into a witch. It's like a bird that develops inside of an egg that never hatches. That's why you made a barrier of your own inside of your soul gem. We never thought you'd be able to reproduce a whole city, though. That was surprising." Really, the Incubators are not good scientists. They are more like Hollywood "mad scientists." They start dangerous experiments with little understanding of what's going to happen. That is, after all, how Madokami came to be as well. A wise being, after having discerned that Madoka's potential exceeded what they believed to be possible, even in theory, would have left her alone and cautiously observed in a passive way. No reasonable safety engineer would ever have signed off on Kyubey's plans in Season 1 or Rebellion. The credit for blocking Madokami goes mostly to Homura's labyrinth and the plan Madokami came up with to address the situation. Destroying the isolation field was trivial once the labyrinth was dealt with. Quote:
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The Incubators clearly have access to technology that we would regard as magic. Since the details were never explained, the limits of Incubator technology are not known. At the very least, they can interact with souls and get useful energy out of emotions. By human standards, that is magic, no matter what Kyubey calls it. On top of that, Kyubey's exposition makes it sound like the Incubators' experiment would have failed if not for Homura's labyrinth: "At that time, the barrier you created had no choice but to change her form back into a living being. To that end, us Incubators were finally able to get what we wanted and observed the true cause behind the disappearance of magical girls upon their demise." "Due to your assistance, we've been able go on endlessly in our research." Most of what Kyubey is explaining in that scene could be stuff the Incubators figured out from observing the girls over the past month. All they needed to set up the experiment was the isolation field, and it's not clear what (if anything) that isolation field would have accomplished on its own (without Homura's labyrinth). Why would blocking the visible spectrum be a necessary part of the intended functioning of the isolation field? Without knowing anything about the principles on which the field operates, your assumption is nonsense. You might as well look at a supercomputing cluster and say, "But it doesn't even run Windows!" |
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2013-11-23, 09:50 | Link #1012 | |||
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Some slight nitpicking on the actual lines in the translation.
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2013-11-23, 15:38 | Link #1013 | ||||
The True Culprit
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When it comes to undoing witches, Madoka should be effectively omnipotent. Even normal Magical Girls can trump the laws of a Witch's labyrinth with the application of magic. We've seen it. Quote:
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A better example might be the Ascension of Christ. How do you stop his vanishing into heaven without using magic, basically? Quote:
This is all leaving out the issues with Kyubey and/or Homura tricking a temporally omniscient being, too.
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2013-11-23, 20:41 | Link #1017 | ||||||
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If I understand your translation correctly, Quote:
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As an (admittedly imperfect) analogy, with current technology I cannot make a software program that truly understands calculus the way a human mathematician does. But I could make one that solves differential equations as if it did. The Incubators cannot make an isolation field that is truly magic, but nonetheless they can make one that blocks certain types of interference as if it were magic. Quote:
As for the ascension question... If we hypothetically accept Christian mythology, then Christ is omnipotent and so you can't stop him even with magic. Setting that aside, for a non-omnipotent Christ the answer would obviously depend on the principles & mechanisms by which he is attempting to perform said ascension. And the solution would be to find some non-magical means to interfere with one or more of those mechanisms. To preemptively answer the obvious objection, yes, it is not necessarily the case that such a means exists. However, it is also not necessarily the case that such a means does not exist. That cannot be determined a priori -- at least not without making additional assumptions that are not justified in the context of "magic" as defined in PMMM. Quote:
In any case, a photon is a physical entity. If Madoka took the form of photons, then she would be observable as photons. So "step 1" (observe Madoka) would have been at least a partial success for the Incubators. They could then analyze that data, and set up another experiment based on what they learned. Madoka has to go claim every magical girl; it's not like the Incubators will run out of test subjects any time soon. Quote:
Homura: "Are you... really all right with that, Madoka? Even though I'll forget you? Even though I'll never even be able to sense you again?" Madoka: "It's too soon to give up yet. After all, you managed to follow me all the way out here, didn't you? So even when you go back to your world... maybe you'll still be able to remember me. It'll be all right. I know it'll be all right. Let's believe." An omniscient Madoka has no business saying things like "maybe" or "let's believe" because she would already know what will or won't happen. An omniscient Madoka could just state directly: "Homura-chan, you won't forget me. I know." Or something to that effect. But she doesn't say that at all. Her only clear assertion is a vague "it'll be all right." Now, yes, I can't definitively prove that she's not just jerking Homura around, but come on... are you really going to argue she's playing a cruel game with Homura's feelings? As soon as Homura arrives in the new universe she will realize that she does indeed remember Madoka, so what possible justification could Madoka have for not simply telling Homura? Even on a thematic level, it would be pretty weird that the girl who became hope would be incapable of hope herself -- but that is what omniscience would entail. Hope is about positive belief/feeling/expectation when facing uncertainty. The uncertainty part is critical. It's not hope if you already know the result. |
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2013-11-23, 22:17 | Link #1018 | |||||||
The True Culprit
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Also, Madoka is a law of the universe. If they were capable of trumping those, entropy would've never been an issue in the first place. Quote:
Show me science that can permanently rewrite how science functions and maybe I'll concede the point. Quote:
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It's not even necessary, because the laws of the universe are effectively omnipresent. Witch barriers don't have their own flow of time, for instance (that we know of). Quote:
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You know, that hope thing that she's kind of in charge of handing out, now. Quote:
Your argument is akin to claiming that Christ can't feel the very thing he's offering his followers.
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2013-11-24, 00:22 | Link #1019 | |
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Then, since he tried his experiment on Homura of all people, Homura's labyrinth sucked Madoka in it. I think in this instance, it helps that Homura is the only being in the universe KNOWING and ACKNOWLEDGING Madoka's existence as an actual person and more than a concept, because if you apply the "belief/cognition brings things in existence" (a la "cogito ergo sum"; think what Lordgenome says in TTGL about universe being defined by observation, and the Great Gurren Brigade being unable to pinpoint the Antispirals if not for the ring; I'm thinking a logic like this one applies here), then in Homura's labyrinth, pushed one step further, Homura's belief gave Madokami an observable shape. So for me Kyubey wanted "to see what happens", and got far more he bargained for, thanks to Homura and her unique connection to Madoka. Then once he'd have actual PROOF of Madoka's existence and mechanics through Homura, he'd be able to eventually understand and limit it for his purposes. (Again, this is an extension of the "belief shapes reality" mindset, but I think that from the moment we have a reality-rewriting wish, this assumption is pretty safe) As for saying whether Madokami is absolute... I guess from the moment she left behind Homura with a thread hanging, so to speak, you can't say she is absolute because it left the loophole we've seen. (Again, the above is purely my speculation) |
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2013-11-24, 02:27 | Link #1020 |
The True Culprit
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I don't think belief-shapes-reality is the mechanic at play here, nor that Homura really 'called/summoned Madoka in', per se, so much that Madoka was invited in and offered her a form. Given Madoka's preparations it sure as heck seems like she didn't HAVE to enter the barrier, though not doing so would've been forgoing her only apparent means of helping Homura.
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