Learning Japanese

[AK-kun]

You guys are so lucky to be able to learn the language... I can only do so in two years time, provided my grades are good enough.

[uplinkhack]

Originally Posted by AK-kun

You guys are so lucky to be able to learn the language... I can only do so in two years time, provided my grades are good enough.

check out the link i posted above...quite a nice place to start reading about the language...grades no good also can learn what

[Omiane]

Im learning thru programs and videos and im taking it real seriously I wanna learn so Im dedicating myself to it.

[FatPianoBoy]

Originally Posted by AK-kun

You guys are so lucky to be able to learn the language... I can only do so in two years time, provided my grades are good enough.

A classroom isn't the only place you can learn stuff, you know. I've only ever studied on my own and with friends; I've never taken a Japanese class.

[uplinkhack]

as the saying goes, ~ you are limited only by your own imagination~

AK-kun don't worry about your grades. You're only 15 this year and you have plenty of time to check out new stuff. When you're free just look around the internet for some info, or go to the bookshop to check out some Japanese magazines, get a dictionary and you're ready on a brand new learning journey...

and don't give up too soon

[SSJiffy]

Hey lads it's been a while since the last question but:

Resutoran no takosu morenos wa totemo oishii desukara dai suki desu.
Takosu wa watashi no dai suki tabemono desu.

Here's what I'm trying to say:
I love the food at Tacos Morenos their food is delicious. Tacos are my favorite food.

Make it better?

[uplinkhack]

for my knowledge, i think this is better:

takosu morenos no ryouri wa totemo oishii desu.
Takosu ga dai suki desu.

[oneil]

From the English word that you wrote, I like to say it this way in Japanese

"Tacos Morenos" to iu resutoran no ryouri wa oishikute, daisuki desu.
Ichiban sukina tabemono wa takosu desu.

"to iu" here is something like an explanation as the listener might never heard of that restaurant name.

[CarpeDiem]

Originally Posted by uplinkhack

for my knowledge, i think this is better:

takosu morenos no ryouri wa totemo oishii desu.
Takosu ga dai suki desu.

Originally Posted by oneil

"Tacos Morenos" to iu resutoran no ryouri
"to iu" here is something like an explanation as the listener might never heard of that restaurant name.

I like relating it to English like this:
"takosu morenosu no ryouri" = the food "tacos morenos"
"Tacos Morenosu" to iu resutoran no ryouri = The restaurant food called "tacos morenos"

[SSJiffy]

Yo lads, decided to go dig this thread up from the abyss.

The difference between: iku, kaeru, and deru. When and where do these different verb forms fit? (any examples of usage are appreciated as always ^^).

One more thing. When I'm faced with a new verb (or one I've forgotten) how can I tell if it's a Class 1, Class 2, or Class 3 verb? If this verb-class stuff sounds absurd (and out of the blue to you blame Yookoso! 3rd ed. textbook.)

For example. For an assingment I needed to figure out what 'aimashita' became in short-form. I came up with aru (chigau), amu (chigau), and then finally the correct one: au.

Is there some short-cut to knowing the dictionary form from hearing the ~masu form?

:]

[Syaoran]

Originally Posted by SSJiffy

Yo lads, decided to go dig this thread up from the abyss.

The difference between: iku, kaeru, and deru. When and where do these different verb forms fit? (any examples of usage are appreciated as always ^^).

行く (to go) - 来月日本へ行きます。
帰る (to return home) - 今は２３時３０分ですから、私たちは帰ります。
出る (to leave) - アパートを出ます。

One more thing. When I'm faced with a new verb (or one I've forgotten) how can I tell if it's a Class 1, Class 2, or Class 3 verb? If this verb-class stuff sounds absurd (and out of the blue to you blame Yookoso! 3rd ed. textbook.)

I guess you can say all verbs ending in ~iru or ~eru are class 1.
ie. taberu, miru, deru, ...

Verbs ending in -u verbs from class 2.
ie. yomu, au, kaku, oyogu, asobu, matsu, iku...

Class 3 are irregular verbs such as suru and kuru.

For example. For an assingment I needed to figure out what 'aimashita' became in short-form. I came up with aru (chigau), amu (chigau), and then finally the correct one: au.

Is there some short-cut to knowing the dictionary form from hearing the ~masu form?

To get from one form to another, you need to know the formation rules of all those forms.
Class 1 in imperfective affirmative is replacing -ru by -masu. perfective affirmative: -mashita. Class 2 is -imasu/-imashita and so on.
Knowing that, you see that aimashita ends with -imashita > class 2 > au
yobimashita > yobu

That's more or less what it's about. You need to understand this very well. If not, it will be hard to make other forms in the future.
Hope this helps a little ^^

[raikage]

Originally Posted by Syaoran

Class 3 are irregular verbs such as suru and kuru.

These are, really, the only Class 3 verbs there are. Everything else is either 1 or 2.

Just thought SSJiffy should know.

[Spectacular_Insanity]

Hmmm. I never learned "classes" of verbs in my class. Ito-sensei teaches us the grouping of verbs as:

U-verbs (i.e. utau, aku, oyogu, yomu, kiru, dasu)
*this is probably the largest list as far as sheer numbers go. Conjugation-wise, for the long form (-masu form), the last syllable changes to the i-sound equivalent in the same row (see below). For example: utau --> utaimasu, dasu --> dashimasu

Ru-verbs (i.e. taberu, kaeru)
*This one is my favorite kind, as its by far the easiest. To get the long form, just take off the ru and add -masu. Example: taberu --> tabemasu

Irregular (i.e. iku, kuru, suru)
*This one's tricky, since they seem to be like anyother verb, until your reach forms like the -nai form. The rules depend on the verb. Example: kuru --> konai

Spoiler for sound chart:

あ a い i う u え e お o <--- these are the base vowel sounds
か ka き ki く ku け ke こ ko
さ sa し shi す su せ se そ so
た ta ち chi つ tsu て te と to
な na に ni ぬ nu ね ne の no
は ha ひ hi ふ fu へ he ほ ho
ま ma み mi む mu め me も mo
や ya ゆ yu よ yo
ら ra り ri る ru れ re ろ ro
わ wa を wo

Then there are also subcatagories, such as transitive and intransitive. Transitive verbs take a direct object with wo, where intransitive verbs do not. Most of the time, intransitive verbs take the particle ga with a subject. Ga places the emphasis on the thing that's happening, not the action itself. (Or is it the other way around? It doesn't really matter either way in this case, you just need to use it.)

Example: Akeru & Aku - to open

Both mean to open, but Akeru is a transitive verb, which means it has to take a direct object.

Watashi wa hon wo akeru. I open a book.

However, if you want to say, for instance, "the door opens", you have to use aku (and the suject particle ga).

Doa ga aku. The door opens. (it opens on its own, no one is doing the opening)
Note: When writing "doa" in japanese, it needs to be in katakana, not hiragana.

I apologize if this small explanation was too brief, etc. I also apologize for having everything in romaji. It irritates me, too. I don't have a language pack installed on my home computer so...

[SSJiffy]

Thanks guys, I feel I'm closing the gap in my understanding with this. And the explanation no matter how brief was helpful, Spectacular_Insanity ;].

[Ewok]

Originally Posted by Spectacular_Insanity

Hmmm. I never learned "classes" of verbs in my class. Ito-sensei teaches us the grouping of verbs as:

Most text books both in Japanese and other languages generally refer to verbs as Class/Group 1, 2 and 3, or 1 - 2 - Irregular. One of the mistakes people make while learning is to treat all -ru verbs as class 2 verbs, and it makes things messy.

Originally Posted by FatPianoBoy

A classroom isn't the only place you can learn stuff, you know. I've only ever studied on my own and with friends; I've never taken a Japanese class.

Very true, but you cannot transpose English into Japanese, and textbooks only explain so much. Despite the high quality of explanations in the thread, there are lots of little grammar mistakes. The meaning is still there, its just that it doesn't sound natural

[FatPianoBoy]

Originally Posted by Ewok

Very true, but you cannot transpose English into Japanese, and textbooks only explain so much. Despite the high quality of explanations in the thread, there are lots of little grammar mistakes. The meaning is still there, its just that it doesn't sound natural

What do you mean you can't transpose English into Japanese?
And yes, textbooks can omit things, and example sentences that are completely in romaaji and begin every other sentence with "Watashi wa..." certainly don't help with naturalness.
As for little grammar mistakes, most textbooks claim that there is little to no difference between は and が and offer little or no explanation in the different uses of で. Fortunately, I have native-speaking friends for reference, but most people don't.

[Vexx]

"ga" is used for emphasis or to introduce new information into the conversation. I got two books and a couple of japanese teachers that explained it pretty clearly. I've got one nice book that is about nothing *but* particle use ... but once you catch the flavor for the natural use, it becomes pretty clear when to use what in most cases. I'll edit this to reference a few books I've found helpful .

whether you call the herds of verbs "class" "group" or "flock" is pretty irrelevant as long as it conveys some understanding of what you do with them.

And I really have no idea what ewok means by "can't transpose english into japanese" until he clarifies. He could be referring to cultural assumptions, proverbs, metaphors, or any other complexity to translation. More likely he's saying that "word by word" translation gives you less than meaningful results sometimes.

[Ewok]

Originally Posted by FatPianoBoy

What do you mean you can't transpose English into Japanese?

What I mean is that to properly translate you need to be flexible and to not just change Japanese into English, but to change it to be natural - like Vexx said, cultural assumptions, proverbs, metaphors and other complexities mean that you have to translate the "meaning", not what is said or written, to be able to get the most accurate translation.

Allot of people make the mistake of translating what is written instead of what is implied or meant.

[FatPianoBoy]

Originally Posted by Ewok

What I mean is that to properly translate you need to be flexible and to not just change Japanese into English, but to change it to be natural - like Vexx said, ural assumptions, proverbs, metaphors and other complexities mean that you have to translate the "meaning", not what is said or written, to be able to get the most accurate translation.

Allot of people make the mistake of translating what is written instead of what is implied or meant.

Oh. Yeah, definitely. In the little translating that I've done, I found out very quickly that literal translation very rarely makes sense.

@Vexx: I think a friend of mine has the book you speak of. It's made by Kodansha (best Japanese language books ever made) and is called "Basic Japanese Sentence Particles" or something like that. I've been meaning to get that, along with "Basic Japanese Sentence Patterns."

[Ewok]

The Japan Times make a great pair of books on Japanese grammar. The appendix alone is amazing.