Hayate no Gotoku manga (raw discussion only)

[Bastion_Arcion]

Originally Posted by Trans-Fat

Need some info in which I plan to use for my fanfiction:

1) The EOTW arc occurred 10 years prior to the storyline, right?
2) Hinagiku's parent's left her 10 yers prior, right?
3) The Royal garden was bought out by Mikado, right?
4) Isn't the site of the royal garden the current site for Hakuo Academy?
5) Was there a specific date when Hayate left the Royal Garden when he was young? If so, what dates?
6) Yukiji is how many years older than Hinagiku?

1 & 5) Hayate said it was ten years ago, I don't believe it was given a date, or even Hayate or Athena given ages, so it might have just been an estimate.
2) Hinagiku just said that her parents left before she turned six (that might be eight actually), that could have been a few months, it could have been March 2nd. Nagi has spent longer without parents than Hinagiku has been without her real parents (Nagi was older than three in her flashbacks with her mother).
3-4) I don't believe the RG was ever bought, the sign for the entrance Hayate was looking for did say that the land was owned by the Sanzenin, but the RG is a separate dimension, so it's unlikely that he actually owned it (and somehow the Tennos family gained control of it, despite the only Tennos being a little girl).
6) Yukiji is how many years older than Hinagiku? 12 years, I'd have to check when Yukiji's b-day is to know how many months/days.

[madmac]

6) Yukiji is how many years older than Hinagiku? 12 years, I'd have to check when Yukiji's b-day is to know how many months/days.

Weirdly enough, she has the same birthday as Hayate*. Wouldn't that make for an awkward party?

*It's slightly arguable. Her volume 4 profile says Nov 10th, at least one recent chapter stated Nov 11th. Not much difference either way.

The only other two characters I know of that share a birthday are Wataru and Chiharu on August 30th.

[Bastion_Arcion]

Originally Posted by madmac

Weirdly enough, she has the same birthday as Hayate*. Wouldn't that make for an awkward party?

*It's slightly arguable. Her volume 4 profile says Nov 10th, at least one recent chapter stated Nov 11th. Not much difference either way.

Does that make Yukiji Hayate's in-story expy?
He has a brother, just like Yukiji (a sister) as well, though his is older while hers is younger

Does that also imply Ikusa's b-day is March 3rd (or maybe the 2nd)?

[Used Can]

I don't think Maria is tsundere in the very least. In my opinion, she was just angry at Hayate being so bloody dense.

[Bastion_Arcion]

Originally Posted by Used Can

I don't think Maria is tsundere in the very least. In my opinion, she was just angry at Hayate being so bloody dense.

Maria has shown tsundere traits before, she just lampshades them in this chapter, and did the same in the Valentine's Day/White Day(?) extra (which I think was done long after White Day, but that's what it was about).
I think Horo of Spice and Wolf does the 'not tsundere, but tease her love interest' better anyways.

[Used Can]

Well, Horo is hundreds of years old and she has had experiences on relationships. So, I think it's obvious she won't show any tsundere traits, when being tsundere is basically a sign of (emotional) immaturity.

Anyhow, what Maria did in the Valentine's chapter, while it was definitely shyness, I don't think it could be called tsun, since she wasn't been particularly cold to Hayate. But well, the definitions of tsundere nowadays are so weird, that mere shyness may count as a form of being tsundere. I, honestly, wouldn't know.

[Bastion_Arcion]

Originally Posted by Used Can

Well, Horo is hundreds of years old and she has had experiences on relationships. So, I think it's obvious she won't show any tsundere traits, when being tsundere is basically a sign of (emotional) immaturity.

Anyhow, what Maria did in the Valentine's chapter, while it was definitely shyness, I don't think it could be called tsun, since she wasn't been particularly cold to Hayate. But well, the definitions of tsundere nowadays are so weird, that mere shyness may count as a form of being tsundere. I, honestly, wouldn't know.

In the extra, Maria was clearly tsundere, she even made fun of it. It wasn't the chapter on it, which seems to be what you're thinking of. When she was thinking of giving either cookies or chocolate to Hayate is the piece I'm talking about. She was acting out the 'tsun' part of it as well, while you seem to be thinking of an event of the 'dere'.

I will argue with you on Tsundere's being emotionally immature. There are plenty of examples of emotionally mature tsunderes even in anime alone. It's a personality trait, not tied to maturity. Even continuing when the related relationship is complete at times.
I doubt Hinagiku will ever outgrow her tsundereness, since it's tied to her shorttank(t), rather than a relationship. She's probably one of the most emotionally mature characters in the whole story.

[Used Can]

Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion

In the extra, Maria was clearly tsundere, she even made fun of it. It wasn't the chapter on it, which seems to be what you're thinking of. When she was thinking of giving either cookies or chocolate to Hayate is the piece I'm talking about. She was acting out the 'tsun' part of it as well, while you seem to be thinking of an event of the 'dere'.

I'm sorry, but I do not seem able to find this chapter.

Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion

I will argue with you on Tsundere's being emotionally immature. There are plenty of examples of emotionally mature tsunderes even in anime alone. It's a personality trait, not tied to maturity. Even continuing when the related relationship is complete at times.

I'm speaking about my own experience watching anime. I'm yet to see a single tsundere who isn't a teenager/young adult without experience in relationships.

[Bastion_Arcion]

Originally Posted by Used Can

I'm sorry, but I do not seem able to find this chapter.

I'm not sure where it is, but it did occur much later than the actual event. If anyone else knows where it is, help in locating it is appreciated.

Originally Posted by Used Can

I'm speaking about my own experience watching anime. I'm yet to see a single tsundere who isn't a teenager/young adult without experience in relationships.

Check out the trope page, there are several emotionally mature tsundere's listed there, I'm sure of it.

[Used Can]

There were a few, and that's why I said I wouldn't find it odd considering the vast definitions tsundere has nowadays. But, well, I guess it's my bad for trying to define such a broad term.

[Bastion_Arcion]

Originally Posted by Used Can

There were a few, and that's why I said I wouldn't find it odd considering the vast definitions tsundere has nowadays. But, well, I guess it's my bad for trying to define such a broad term.

Considering before reading the definition, I didn't even think Hinagiku fit the bill of tsundere, since it isn't Hayate who triggers the switch, though he's often given the button and forced to push it, I think you might just have to accept that it has a broader definition.

As opposed to some of the other tropes, this is given a broader view than is sometimes thought of.

[mitsuganae]

Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion

I doubt Hinagiku will ever outgrow her tsundereness, since it's tied to her shorttank(t), rather than a relationship. She's probably one of the most emotionally mature characters in the whole story.

I might agree with you if it weren't for the frequency of her internal whining over her "love" interest. At least someone like, say, Ayumu -- who at first glance might be considered a less mature character -- doesn't (w)angst about it as much. Taking such things in stride -- and even with a certain amount of grace -- is a sign of maturity, IMHO, and is one of the reasons why, as a character, I prefer Ayumu over Katsura the younger.

Lest anyone get the wrong idea, I do not ship Ayumu, or anyone. Shipping isn't even one of the reasons why I read this manga.

[madmac]

For what it's worth, I don't consider Maria remotely tsundere either. She was pretty obviously teasing Hayate last chapter as well. The White Day story you're talking about is in Volume 14 and doesn't "lampshade" anything. The entire punchline is Hayate walks in at a bad time and decides Maria must be tsundere when she clearly isn't.

Calling Maria "tsundere" makes even less sense considering she isn't even in love with Hayate or anyone else. Maria expects to be treated as a (desirable) woman, and is quite sensitive to being ignored and slightly paranoid about coming off as "easy" but she doesn't particularly have feelings for Hayate. It's one of the things I like most about Maria, along with her casually poking fun at Hayate whenever he tries to flatter her too much.

As for Hina, "emotionally mature" is not how I'd describe her at all. Hina's childish tastes and inclinations are called out constantly by other characters in the manga, to the point that I consider the basis of her personality as being the contrast between her "cool" persona and her inner girlishness. Heck, just look at Hina's dreams, which are always inherently silly and massively unrealistic and festooned with flowers and candy and hilariously bad shojo writing. It's a huge difference from Ayumu's dreams which are realistic to the point where she doesn't even get any action when she's sleeping.

Lest anyone get the wrong idea, I do not ship Ayumu, or anyone. Shipping isn't even one of the reasons why I read this manga.

Heh. No reason to get so defensive. No one ships Ayumu anyways, it's kind of sad...

[mitsuganae]

Originally Posted by madmac

Heh. No reason to get so defensive. No one ships Ayumu anyways, it's kind of sad...

Consider it a pre-emptive strike against all the (IMHO silly) shipping stuff that goes on around here. That being said, surely there must be a few Ayumu shippers in this subforum? I urge them to raise their hands and post more often. At the very least, it would make a refreshing change from all the Hinagiku and Athena worshipping (pun intended).

[madmac]

That being said, surely there must be a few Ayumu shippers in this subforum? I urge them to raise their hands and post more often. At the very least, it would make a refrehing change from all the Hinagiku and Athena worshipping (pun intended).

I've honestly never met one. I'll be pleasantly surprised if anyone posts an affirmative, though.


Getting back to Maria for a bit...

Really, for all that it's been obscured and watered down over time, the original set-up of this series is a love triangle. Nagi likes Hayate, Hayate likes Maria, Maria doesn't exactly dislike Hayate but loves Nagi more and tries to push him towards her. The original oneshot is a lot less subtle about the whole thing, partly because it never created a "misunderstanding" between Hayate and Nagi.

Of course, the series has drifted considerably since then, and Maria's been so heavily underused lately that it's always something of a shock when she gets a little push like last chapter, or her placement in Chapter 239. In the end though, I expect she'll be important to the plot in more the one respect, no matter how out of place it might seem for her now.

[mitsuganae]

Originally Posted by madmac

In the end though, I expect she'll be important to the plot in more the one respect, no matter how out of place it might seem for her now.

I do hope you're right. I suspect she has a part to play when the central mystery unravels (i.e. the business with the stones, Mikado, etc.).

[Used Can]

Originally Posted by madmac

No one ships Ayumu anyways, it's kind of sad...

I don't know what you mean by shipper, but I'd be happy with an Ayumu end.
Personally, usually, whenever I expect a particular end-girl, I do so because of my expectations on how the plot would develop if one girl receives focus. Back in the day I used to "ship" Hina, because I thought the story would have an interesting development if she received a more central focus. However, she received quite some decent amount of focus, and yet her development failed to impress me, and thus I lost interest. I always used to think Maria would be an interesting option, be she always go side-lined and is mostly a gag-character now. After that I thought Sakuya may be interesting, and I got to read that side story which I liked a lot. Finally, Athena showed up and I found her terribly interesting, and I thought that if she became more central the plot would develop in a fashion I'd like even more - especially considering I had lost a lot of interest in this manga before the EotW arc. So far, Athena's involvement in this manga hasn't failed to impress me and, in fact, has fuelled my interest in this manga.

As for Ayumu, I've personally loved her entire development. It's rather funny considering I tend to dislike the "normal" girls in any of these type of stories. In fact, I'd even say I tend to have a bias against them, yet I love Ayumu so much. I think she's a good example of what character development should be, and I think her involvement in the plot has been good enough and I've enjoyed the story every single time she's received focus. So, yeah, even if Athena is my favourite character and my main choice of a romantic ending, I'd be more than happy with an Ayumu end. In fact, in some aspects, I'd probably like it better than an Athena end.

[Bastion_Arcion]

Originally Posted by madmac

I've honestly never met one. I'll be pleasantly surprised if anyone posts an affirmative, though.

Then I'll surprise you, given that a relationship with Ayumu is even given credence by Hayate in the story. Ayumu is actually my third choice of the final relationship, and actually, if I was going to make my primary wish Hayate's second relationship in my fanfiction, Ayumu would be the first.
Hinagiku and Nagi finish out the top three by the way.

And just to make it fully clear, I don't 'worship' Hinagiku or Athena either. They're probably my sixth and seventh favorite characters in the story. If I chose to 'worship' any of the characters of the story, it would be Nishizawa.

Originally Posted by madmac

Getting back to Maria for a bit...

Really, for all that it's been obscured and watered down over time, the original set-up of this series is a love triangle. Nagi likes Hayate, Hayate likes Maria, Maria doesn't exactly dislike Hayate but loves Nagi more and tries to push him towards her. The original oneshot is a lot less subtle about the whole thing, partly because it never created a "misunderstanding" between Hayate and Nagi.

Of course, the series has drifted considerably since then, and Maria's been so heavily underused lately that it's always something of a shock when she gets a little push like last chapter, or her placement in Chapter 239. In the end though, I expect she'll be important to the plot in more the one respect, no matter how out of place it might seem for her now.

Maria is a member of the harem, just like most of the other girls in the story, she's just downplaying her relationship because of her devotion to Nagi, and thus pushing Nagi more than herself. She has a clear fondness for Hayate, and the original dynamic seemed to be Maria acting as mother and Hayate acting as father to Nagi.
The only one who's actually said to have liked Hayate and has truly given up is Isumi, and even that's questionable, since it's been a while since she had a chance to interact with him while the world's not at stake.
That's really where most of the girls stand with their relationship.

I agree with Ayumu acting more mature than most of the other girls, but rather than call that 'emotional maturity', she did stay at home when Hayate served as her (family's) butler under the pretense of being sick and states that she wished she could go on a date with Hayate, I would call it genre-savvy(t) because of the fact that she full-heartedly embraces the tropes she's part of and plays them out in an effort to push Hinagiku toward confessing.

Hinagiku on the other hand, is able to separate herself and devote herself to her work as Student Council President, a clearly adult-level mentality ability.
Also, Hayate likes the 'emotionally mature' females and while he only seems to realize his physical attraction to Maria and undefined attraction to Athena, it's pretty clear that the emotionally mature Hinagiku is at the top of his list, with Nagi and Nishizawa also showing signs of it, and Hayate openly being attracted to them as well.

[GlassesLady]

So in conclusion, Hayate's birthday party will be forgotten in favour of Yukiji's. And Hayate will cry.

[[/late]]

[Used Can]

I don't think you can call Hina as being emotionally mature. In terms of emotions, she's probably the least mature of the characters, since even Nagi can sort out her own feelings and convey them normally.

Hina is definitely mature in terms of being responsible and general behaviour. But when it comes down to her own feelings and how to act on them, she's probably the least mature of the entire cast, and the one who has taken the most time to develop.