2009-01-20, 16:28 | Link #1823 |
Adeptus Animus
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
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Query: Is Nanoha a show meant to display a realistic military in a realistic military setting?
Observation: Nanoha is a magical girl show that has a bit of military sprinkled in. The show itself is meant to represent heroines battling the wicked forces and helping the weak through the power of friendship and beams of pink death. Analysis: Being that is the case, the scenario writers (whom themselves aren't exactly an army in numbers) will do research into the military as far as is considered important. Ranks, methods of referral and some military jargon will be found and utilized. Research into proper military tactics won't yield enough knowledge to accurately write battle tactics unless vast amounts of research is made. This is not even counting the research needed for animators to display such a setting. Secondary query: What is the target audience of Nanoha? Are military buffs among them? Observation: The target audience of Nanoha are fans of the magical girl and action genre. Conclusion: Since the show was never meant to display a realistically accurate military setting, attempting to do a vast amount of research into correct military tactics is a waste of time and budget, and is better spend elsewhere. |
2009-01-20, 16:32 | Link #1824 | |
Sword Wielding Penguin
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2009-01-20, 16:49 | Link #1825 |
Σ(。д°(o--(ಠ益ಠ )
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FACEPALM: You're taking this military thing too damn seriously. This is like listening to that one guy in the movie theater complaining about every little inconsistency in a movie that no one would really care about.
Hasn't this been covered before? This is a magical girl show, not military drama.
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2009-01-20, 16:59 | Link #1826 | |
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GUARD BREAK: I'm just pointing out why the TSAB seem so incompetent is that the writers aren't idiots, they just don't know how to correctly deal with military strategy and haven't done so much as read a book into it. TEN HIT COMBO: And by cross examining the mistakes they made in duplicating a military organization, I am merely backing up my part of the argument. What was done, and what a mind who knew the least bit about their own military would do to set up given the resources at their disposal. Like I said, there are mistakes made that anyone who's a veteran RTS player wouldn't make. (Zerg Rush! I'm looking at you!) K. O. ! "Ara... Daijobou?" |
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2009-01-20, 17:17 | Link #1827 | |
Adeptus Animus
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It would be like me complaining about Fate's 'incompetence for melee combat' since she chose a scythe as her main weapon. Rather then complain about how a scythe is not a realistically viable weapon -energy blade or not- I realize that it was never meant to be realistic and instead sit back and enjoy the fireworks. |
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2009-01-20, 17:23 | Link #1828 |
Σ(。д°(o--(ಠ益ಠ )
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TARGET MISS: Where are you hoping to get with this? Military this, military that; you can complain and moan about how incompetent the TSAB is, but your argument is only as strong as the number of people that care. However majority of the audience doesn't pay much attention an organization that is barely touched upon by the show itself. Had the writers cared more about this, they obviously would've focused on it more. However considering that MGLN is about the characters and not the organization, your complaints fall upon the ears of the uncaring.
Edit: Keroko ninja post ()
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2009-01-20, 17:42 | Link #1829 | |
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2009-01-20, 17:51 | Link #1830 |
Adeptus Animus
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But what is the point you are trying to achieve by pointing out that the writers aren't versed in military tactics? It changes nothing.
According to the story, Fate is an expert melee combatant. Realistic analysis would prove otherwise. Yet, because the story says she is an expert, she's an expert. According to the story, the TSAB is a very successful military organization, capable of organizing and managing dozens of worlds. Realistic analysis of combat may prove otherwise, but according to the story, they are anything but incompetent. Same tale, same conclusion. Jail won his battle because for the sake of plot he needed to, and the writers gave Jail several tactical moves rather then just having him zerg all over the place. I find this admirable writing for those not versed in military tactics. |
2009-01-20, 21:22 | Link #1831 |
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Join Date: Dec 2005
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Keep in mind that the writers can be un-studied AND stupid. The two aren't mutually exclusive.
For story purposes, I'm prepared to accept Regius as a good reason why TSAB isn't more focused on anti-gadget doctrine, detection, prevention, yadda yadda. We know he's directly responsible for spiking dissemination of anti-AMF doctrine, for example. It's certainly not much of a further stretch to posit that he's been using his influence to keep TSAB away from things that would make Jail less effective - not with an eye to making them able to punch him out, just so that they don't get caught/tracked down and expose him in return. He's genuinely surprised that Jail ended up turning on him, right? So he's got a nasty suspicious mind but it's pointed at the wrong direction (i.e. Hayate and her subordinates, not his own mess). ;p Personally, I enjoy having fun with the weird technical/societal/doctrinal aspects of Nanoha because it's there to have fun with. Sure, at the end of the day, "writers weren't that great" is the conclusion to come to. But it's fun to figure out how it might have worked. I had a lot of fun with that "hey, wait" thing comparing the TSAB strategy meeting thing to ancient Japanese military/political control structures, for example. It's kind of fanciful, sure. But it COULD work! I don't know if you can make conclusions about Fate's scythe. Actual scythes are ineffective melee weapons because they're rather cumbersome and oddly-balanced. But Bardiche isn't a real scythe; he's a staff that happens to sport a (weightless, presumably) energy blade. Thus, the awkward balance isn't nearly as much of an issue, especially because he simultaneously increases his user's speed to compensate and then some. That said, Fate's also comfortable just whacking stuff with Bardiche as an ax... Also, admonitions to "take it easy" now make me envision floating Nanoha and Fate heads. "Yukkuri..." |
2009-01-20, 21:27 | Link #1832 | |
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2009-01-20, 22:06 | Link #1833 | |
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The TSAB, of course, isn't. It is portrayed to have catastrophically failed against a somewhat more competent foe, and that brings the investigators in. An crude analogy would be if for the 4th season, 7Arcs brings in a competent (to expert eyes) melee fighter as a villain, and he p3wns Fate and Signum with ease. Now what would that do to Fate's image as a competent melee fighter? |
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2009-01-21, 00:24 | Link #1834 | ||
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2009-01-21, 00:43 | Link #1835 | |||||||||
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And to be fair, the guy does have a strategic purpose that none of our heroines seem to share - to institutionalize capability into the Ground Forces. Right now, what security the TSAB provides is by Arcenciel and by what seems to be horribly few elite mages. The capability is individual, not as an institution, which is a very delicate situation to say the least. Quote:
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If they were really set on making a magical girl show, instead of seeing anyone fighting in Ep23, we should have all of them stay home and mutter sugary crap like "The Aces, I trust you" or "You are our only hope now, aces..." Quote:
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Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2009-01-21 at 00:58. |
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2009-01-21, 01:04 | Link #1836 | |
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ITT: Everyone hates / bashes on the TSAB. And the writers.
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If Chuck Norris was defeated by Bruce Lee in an all-out fight, does it mean Norris is weak? No, it just says Lee is better.
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2009-01-21, 02:20 | Link #1837 |
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Of course we bash on the TSAB. So far, as regards to series including "bad guys are currently or formerly working for the TSAB", we're 3/3. It's not fair to say that everyone in the TSAB is a bad apple, but something is rotten in the state of Denmark! ;p
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2009-01-21, 02:34 | Link #1838 | |
Sword Wielding Penguin
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What's the point in this topic if it changes nothing? If you don't like talking about it, just don't participate in this discussion. It's like walking up to two guys arguing about WWE wrestlers and starting up with the 'It's FAKE!' argument. "It's fake, it's just a show they put on to-GUAH!" It's a quick way to volunteer yourself for a test of a pile driver. To be fair, the TSAB are incompetent in terms of military perspective, but they can still hold their own compared to the attrocity that is THIS battle. At least with the writing for the TSAB, the writers, while not doing their homework, knew enough not to have people standing rank and file in the middle of the street (they stuck them behind baricades and such) and people flying like maniacs through the gaps between office buildings. (Not to mention, of the attrocities in that fight, the Apaches engaging so close you could throw a rock at it, the apaches flying through the buildings instead of over them where they can use their radar and gun effectively, the tanks MISSING HUGE targets just up the street... people standing right around the tanks when they fire. *Big No No if you don't like going deaf.* The fact that the tanks are even IN that densely packed urban environment when they shouldn't be... Complete lack of fixed wing air support, which would probably have been there first, not attack helicopters...) That's the kind of horrible attrocity you get when you don't do your homework, have no idea how the military works, and can't cover it up with Magical Girl goodness. "You have a helicopter that has a gun capable of pegging a target from three miles away. Your target is a giant snake-dragon on an office building. Why are you attacking so close it can lash out and bite the cockpit off?" *Shudder* D-War ... I can't even force myself to enjoy it for the mindless action because it's just so WRONG. I have to go purge my mind with something awesome now... I think I'll go watch some DBZ Abridged. |
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2009-01-21, 05:57 | Link #1839 | |||||||||
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This imperative is actually shared between intentists and SoDomizers. THe author's intent is to make the guys intelligent, so finding intelligent reasons for their unusual decisions is a good thing. A SoDomizer notes that the organization is staffed by people of human intelligence, so they probably had something to their decisions, even if they are different from our decisions. Quote:
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Over land, what you are forgetting is how small those drones are - they are roughly human size. Which means that only a few hundreds meters out, they look about a pixel big. Even a professional observer won't necessarily detect something like that, especially if the drones blend in well - the greyish paint they use is not exactly camouflage, but should produce a reasonably low contrast against many surfaces that would make them harder to spot, and the different shades should help break up their pattern a bit. You've also assumed that they'll stay in one swarm, when it is at least as likely they'll be dispersed over multiple routes until the attack. Not many people will call in for four pixel-size dots flitting across their vision, and they won't be aware that four pixel size dots are whitting past 20 people's vision around the same time. They might show up better on thermal detection, admittedly, but most thermal detectors |
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2009-01-21, 06:49 | Link #1840 | |||||
Adeptus Animus
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Now why is Fate not seen as incompetent? The answer is simple, despite her losses on the field of battle, in the end she always came out victorious. The same thing goes for the TSAB. Despite their loss against Jail's terrorist attack, they came out victorious in the end. I never said that the topic should change nothing, I said your point changes nothing. We know the writers did not do their research, we know that realistically speaking the TSAB is horribly incompetent, however for the purpose of the story, the TSAB is competent. It is an organization that has rediscovered dimensional travel and controls dozens of worlds, while keeping an eye on dozens more. If it was horribly incompetent, it would have fallen long ago, and the story of Nanoha would not exist. Just from that clip, I can already see the idea was not 'how do we let the army fight Dragons realistically?' but 'how do we make the dragons look totally awesome!' Heck, even I'm having trouble not rolling my eyes. I mean, the Apachis where something I can look past because I know very little about them, but an entire army is emptying tons of lead into a charging enemy force and only the occasional guy goes down? Anime sure helps making the stormtrooper effect look more acceptable. At least you see the shots missing their targets then. Target Audience is obviously dragon junkies. Quote:
Yet, for some reason, she isn't, while the TSAB is dogpiled for a single loss. When one looks at the situation, the answer is obvious: The people who complain about the TSAB's incompetence lack the knowledge to recognize the flaws in melee combat. It's like a mirror, you military buffs see flaws in the TSAB's strategy where we see none. Reversely, I can see flaws in the melee combat where you guys see none. The difference is that I accept it was never meant to be a realistic display, and kick back and enjoy, whereas you guys do not. Quote:
Therefore, while the rest of the fight is not exactly what one would call realistically portrayed (for example, despite being shaped to be capable, Zest never once stabbed with his weapon) Zest's 'I'll take her down with one powerful hit' is a viable, and understandable tactic. The irony then comes that he is fighting a hammer wielding opponent, whom is virtually in the same boat as him. Quote:
I have no doubts there are many military buffs out there who love the military setting, and simply shrug of the not-so-realistic display of it. Fact is, if you were part of the target audience, then they would have done more research. Otherwise the only other alternative I can come to is that while they wanted to do more research, time and budget prevented them from doing so. That, or calling them an incompetent bunch of nitwits. But I'd rather not call someone incompetent without a better understanding of the situation. That depends on a large amount of unknown factors, one among them being the budget they were working with in the first place. Design, audio, animation, editing, marketing, merchandise, post-production, there are many factors that come into play when making a media production, and budget 101 is quite simple, cut wherever you can. Of course, there are also other factors like time-constrains. Deadlines can do wonders for speeding up the 'shall I commit time to research this?' decision. |
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