Nanoha Franchise General Discussion Thread

[Justin_Brett]

Were you not here for 'Signum isn't cool anymore', rounds 1, 2, 3, 4, 5...

[Archon_Wing]

Now, not even I'm that masochistic.

[Lhklan]

Originally Posted by Justin_Brett

Were you not here for 'Signum isn't cool anymore', rounds 1, 2, 3, 4, 5...

Not sure, but I don't think so.

At least, not for the first few rounds.

[XenahortCharybdis]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

We're masochistic that way, clearly.

There's probably also something about the reverse correlation between free time and the significance of the semantics being debated here.

[Sansker]

So since we are stock on who is the one who endures the most we can also bring something else here. Overall the past argument just serve the purpose of making half of the people talk about the series while also bringing thoughts on others here that didn’t really add anything. Impossible to reach a conclusion maybe is time to move on and just keep, as Keroko says, being constructive. So I decided to be just that and voice something different. What I like of the series.

Overall the Nanoha franchise as a whole was never the perfect anime but why I find it good? Two main reasons: Characters and emotion. You see the plot of the first series is easy to follow, doesn’t really goes beyond regular magical girls and it does deliver an ok execution with some elements here and there making it a little different but overall and ok series. The reason why I care and actually watch more was the two main characters in the first season: Nanoha and Fate. Where everyone else just kind of sit in the background and really had nothing more going on the two started a dynamic relationship that even send the original plot to the side line as in the middle of the first season I was more interested in how Nanoha and Fate will resolve their problems than what will happen to the Jewel Seeds.

And the story also gives you that impression as most of them are actually get off camera and then bet in a “final” battle between both girls. So I will be lying if I say I didn’t see how that was going to end but later on the story gives something more if I think was lacking a better action climax. The villain and the final trouble were kind of deal with in a less dramatic way than expected and the ending was a sad if heartwarming scene in a breach with the phrase “we will see each other again” that has been done several times and will be until the end of times. So really all that was there in the end reduces to one simple fact: did you care about the characters? Because if you don’t then this will not be that good and like I say I did care. Without calling it the best execution and develop ever we did get to see Nanoha and Fate in their scenes, how this affects them and how they were determinate to win no matter what. Is the passion on them that I get what makes me care and watch this to the end. Not to say the other characters were just waste of space but just don’t stand out that much and others like Yuuno or Arf fall in to strong side characters or weak main ones in case of Yuuno which role is always reduce as the series moves forward.

So with that in mind the sequel to the first season A’s, use the same formula. And is really obvious how they repeat the same idea twice: lost logia that can do something, people who wants to use it and need to be stop but they aren’t that bad. We can pretty much guess where this is going right from the start so really again they need to use what save the other season: characters. Sadly even when tiny bits are dedicated to Fate’s development those are just too short and too spread across the 13 episodes to be as good as they should and Nanoha, while still good, also suffers from this to make room for new characters: the Wolkenritter and Hayate.

And I am just going to say this but I am not that much of a Hayate’s fan. I get her just fine but she seems to be just bland in the sense she is good, she is going to die and she seems pretty much ok with this. We don’t focus the story on her and how she feels now with a loving family just see her happy and knowing she probably won’t make it to her 10th birthday. In the end while I get her feeling she remains too much in the background not just unknowing her knights are doing things but also we don’t focus on her side of the story that much. We spend most of our time with the Wolkenritter but that is just fine. In the end what makes me care here are Vita and Signum the ones who get the best screen time and the characterization, a little basic, but characterization.

My problem with Hayate is that her character just remains too basic and without the passion or focus Fate had in the first season so really we do see more of how Vita cares than why Hayate does and we get more of how Signum feels about doing bad things than how the others do. Maybe that is why I tend to see this as a package. The characters do their jobs but like I say they fit their roles without stand out: Hayate is the cute, adorable and motherly little girl (I still consider odd that she as the age of 9 was the “mother” of the Wolkenritter) and is obvious the Wolkenritter will fight to protect her and while I like Reinforce she should be present more to make her tragic final stand all the more tragic. In the end they get the job done ok and there is when I stop is just fine but is not great.

Overall A’s is enjoyable and I will always agree to that. The action did improve and the little mystery help the plot with the masked guys even if it just sort of end and that was it. Chrono’s reveal was really spoil to us early and the fact the twin cats were the masked guys as well. But none the less I still care for some of the new characters, not all, but I did care about Vita, like Signum enough and just of make room for Shamal. Zafira really… not a big fan, too little scream time to really get anything from him. Nanoha and Fate in reduced roles still were the ones who make me watch this and seeing Fate’s get over its familiar problems and get family and friends was nice. A’s was really an enjoyable anime.

Now with all this comes the question: why I didn’t like StrikerS? Well even when some of the elements I enjoy where there this anime was fill with so many other things I didn’t care all that much and too many new characters that didn’t receive enough screen time to make me care enough to put them above the old favorites. When I consider what Fate and Nanoha went through in two seasons only to find their role reduce in the third to make room for 4 kids I never seen until that point I was not really looking forward to the anime. Overall I find StrikerS boring and that is its biggest crime to me but don’t focus on this last part and please try to read what I just say I did like.

Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha was, to me, full of heart and while using just cute little girls to tell stories and some fan-services it did make something I enjoy for what it was. A cute simple adventure about two girls becoming friends and then fighting more possible friends is not an epic duel of legend but more a simple adventure with some human elements to it that while not complex were indeed relatable.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Demi.

I think at this point, that's not really truthful. The Nanoha franchise has already lasted longer than almost anything. There is Gundam, and some other stuff. We don't have an anime series, because the movies are more profitable than an anime series.

Perhaps not if you merely factored in dvd and BD sales, but you can't take a series to the theaters for several long months, and sell the abundant amount of goods there in the process.

The fact that we are reduced to movies, instead of an anime series and movies, is one of your first clues. Gundam isn't really comparable, since new Gundam series come out every year or two. They always take a break between them, and we do get Gundam movies, too.

Sure, Nanoha is more popular in Japan, but I was talking mainly about the west. The Nanoha DVDs sold so badly, that the license was dropped in the west, and so no StrikerS over here. Despite A's being one of the more acclaimed series. The movies aren't being released here, as DVDs or BDs. If you want them, you have to order them from Japan. The 3 different manga (which are MUCH cheaper to produce), are once a month affairs... instead of the once a week of other series. And ask any other anime fan to name magical girl series. Odds are, they know Sailor Moon, Card Captor Sakura, and maybe Pretty Cure (which is constantly getting new series). Oh, Madoka, too, of course. Hell, some of them will probably know Tutu and Wedding Peach. But not Nanoha.

Call me when the Nanoha license gets picked up by a western company again. And when a new anime series is produced(which is harder to make money back on, then a movie). Hell, Sailor Moon is getting a reboot series instead of a movie, and that's frickin' old by now.

Also understand that MG shows make most of their money on merch, too. You can run any half-decent MG show on merch alone... but it won't make it popular. So merch alone is not a good indicator of popularity. All the evidence you really have, is that some small subsection of fans in Japan will go watch the movies multiple times. Outside of Japan, Nanoha fails hard... and that's coming from someone who still likes the series and still tries to promote it to people. Inside of Japan, it's still not the biggest thing around... not even close. It's base shrank through StrikerS (a season I liked, but can recognize not a lot did). They've returned to using loli's, because they know that sells with the Japanese otaku.

And you said it yourself: a movie is more profitable than an anime series. But if Nanoha were as popular as you think it was, then it could easily support an anime series. It can't.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

The fact that we are reduced to movies,

"reduced" implies that funding, making and launching movie is somehow easier than a TV series.

[Nanya01]

Originally Posted by Keroko

"reduced" implies that funding, making and launching movie is somehow easier than a TV series.

When it comes to Anime, it probably is.

Simply because anime has to produce a new episode every week, they don't take breaks very often and they don't do re-runs. And series that go on hiatus have a hard time coming back on the air unless they were really popular (Inuyasha and Negima for example).

Yes, in the short term, it's easier to do a series, but, well...

Look at Bleach, one of the big 3 in Japan for a long time, it got canceled. Manga's still on-going, but after this arc's over, the series is over.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Keroko

"reduced" implies that funding, making and launching movie is somehow easier than a TV series.

That's only one side of the coin. Yes, it can cost more to make a movie, but it is easier to make money back from a movie, then a series, since people actively pay to watch it (instead of depending on advertising). Lots of anime gets reduced to movies; Gintama is the latest. it's been cancelled a few times, yet has a movie coming out.

[Demi.]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

The fact that we are reduced to movies, instead of an anime series and movies, is one of your first clues. Gundam isn't really comparable, since new Gundam series come out every year or two. They always take a break between them, and we do get Gundam movies, too.

Sure, Nanoha is more popular in Japan, but I was talking mainly about the west. The Nanoha DVDs sold so badly, that the license was dropped in the west, and so no StrikerS over here. Despite A's being one of the more acclaimed series. The movies aren't being released here, as DVDs or BDs. If you want them, you have to order them from Japan. The 3 different manga (which are MUCH cheaper to produce), are once a month affairs... instead of the once a week of other series. And ask any other anime fan to name magical girl series. Odds are, they know Sailor Moon, Card Captor Sakura, and maybe Pretty Cure (which is constantly getting new series). Oh, Madoka, too, of course. Hell, some of them will probably know Tutu and Wedding Peach. But not Nanoha.

To make the west like it, you would need to completely change the franchises style. Merely adding new characters while sidelining NanoFate is not going to accomplish anything in that regard. If it sold badly merely because they got sick of NanoFate then it stands to reason that at least the first season or A's should have sold well. If A's couldn't sell well in the west, then what part of the Nanoha franchise could? Without completely changing it and pandering more to their needs. Which is the last thing Tsuzuki should want to do, because we're not the ones making him all the money.

Call me when the Nanoha license gets picked up by a western company again. And when a new anime series is produced(which is harder to make money back on, then a movie). Hell, Sailor Moon is getting a reboot series instead of a movie, and that's frickin' old by now.

There are a lot of benefits to a movie. Not only that, but Tsuzuki probably realized that he skipped too many years too quickly, and is trying to get back on track. And then there is Nanoha force, which no longer even resembles Nanoha.

The movies are really working well for him, it's a big risk planning for a 13 or 26 episode series. Especially when the movies have been a known success.

Also understand that MG shows make most of their money on merch, too. You can run any half-decent MG show on merch alone... but it won't make it popular. So merch alone is not a good indicator of popularity. All the evidence you really have, is that some small subsection of fans in Japan will go watch the movies multiple times. Outside of Japan, Nanoha fails hard... and that's coming from someone who still likes the series and still tries to promote it to people. Inside of Japan, it's still not the biggest thing around... not even close. It's base shrank through StrikerS (a season I liked, but can recognize not a lot did). They've returned to using loli's, because they know that sells with the Japanese otaku.

Well, Nanoha is both popular with the merch. and the tickets purchased to watch the movie in theaters. If I want an anime to succeed then I would care about what Japan thinks, not the Western audience. Nanoha is too niche a series to be trying to pander to both populations. It's hard for a MG show to succeed in the first place when the fanbase consists mainly of males. As opposed to something like Magoka Magica where both genders love it. Nevertheless, that series too, will go down the same trend if they plan on milking the franchise beyond the three movies. They're not going to side line their star players (Madoka and Homura) for other characters. It's just not a smart move on any level.

And you said it yourself: a movie is more profitable than an anime series. But if Nanoha were as popular as you think it was, then it could easily support an anime series. It can't.

I bet it could, but why settle for something that will be less profitable than a movie? Even if the series does really well, and sells 30k per disk release, it still probably can't compete with the movie.

[Nanya01]

I bet it could, but why settle for something that will be less profitable than a movie? Even if the series does really well, and sells 30k per disk release, it still probably can't compete with the movie.

Because...

If you have a TV series that's running while movies are being made, you can advertise for them, get more people interested in the movies and have more people watch them, then make even more money?

[Demi.]

So he's going to have two animated continuities running at the same time?

[Nanya01]

Why not?

DBZ did it.

[Justin_Brett]

It's not like Force or Vivid can be animated anyway with the mangas still running. I'd rather they do the high school stuff in a movie rather than put a whole series' worth of work into it.

Unless you'd like to see Touma beat Curren with a courage punch.

[Sunder the Gold]

Originally Posted by Justin_Brett

Unless you'd like to see Touma beat Curren with a courage punch.

I'd like to see Curren beat with ANY sort of punch.

Also, don't be hating on the Soul Eater anime.

[Justin_Brett]

I'm hating on the ending. I like Soul Eater.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Nanya01

When it comes to Anime, it probably is.

Simply because anime has to produce a new episode every week, they don't take breaks very often and they don't do re-runs. And series that go on hiatus have a hard time coming back on the air unless they were really popular (Inuyasha and Negima for example).

Yes, in the short term, it's easier to do a series, but, well...

Look at Bleach, one of the big 3 in Japan for a long time, it got canceled. Manga's still on-going, but after this arc's over, the series is over.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

That's only one side of the coin. Yes, it can cost more to make a movie, but it is easier to make money back from a movie, then a series, since people actively pay to watch it (instead of depending on advertising). Lots of anime gets reduced to movies; Gintama is the latest. it's been cancelled a few times, yet has a movie coming out.

Long-term series that must air continuously are expensive and require a steady viewership to quantify further seasons, yes. And while long-running series that go on hiatus have a hard time coming back, this is easier for "seasonic" series that have clear start and endings each season (case in point, series like Sora no Otoshimono or Dog Days). Nanoha would fall into the later category.

However, there is a big difference between an anime series an an anime movie. Quality, for example. An anime series has far lower quality standards than a movie, which means the animators spend less time and can afford to outsource many in-betweens for even lower production cost. A movie does not have that luxury, thus increased time and money are required.

Also, if you believe competition for timeslots on TV is fierce, imagine for a moment what competition for cinema halls is like. Don't be mistaken, lots of time and money go into assuring your movie hits the cinema's.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Demi.

To make the west like it, you would need to completely change the franchises style. Merely adding new characters while sidelining NanoFate is not going to accomplish anything in that regard.

Oh, I don't mean that they have to sideline NanoFate or Fate. That's the problem with trying to have this conversation with you, because taking away even 30 seconds of Fate time is sidelining to you. I've said this many times already, Demi, and I'll say it again: I dont' care if Fate has the majority of screen, or if NanoFate tie the knot and go frolicking through the field every 10 ten minutes, as long as I get development of the secondary characters (or that someone of them come up to be mains, ya know, like other shows manage to do).

But, to you, focus on anyone else means less time for Fate.

If it sold badly merely because they got sick of NanoFate then it stands to reason that at least the first season or A's should have sold well. If A's couldn't sell well in the west, then what part of the Nanoha franchise could? Without completely changing it and pandering more to their needs. Which is the last thing Tsuzuki should want to do, because we're not the ones making him all the money.

You don't understand that the pedo nature turns off normal people, even normal anime fans? S1 was a bad start, which means less people tuned into A's or bothered to buy the DVDs. I've lost count of the number of youtube reviewers who reviewed the first season, outright admitted that they heard the second was much better, and yet never got around to. At last count, that was... all of them.

And by the time of StrikerS, most of who were left were pedos who got damn upset that StrikerS took their lolis away. So they drifted off to other series.

The movies are really working well for him, it's a big risk planning for a 13 or 26 episode series. Especially when the movies have been a known success.

If it was so popular and good, it would get a 4th season, though. Coming off the downturn of StrikerS, they probably allowed him to do a reboot of the first season to cash in on the rabid otaku fanboys that were left; that's a safe enough gesture.

Well, Nanoha is both popular with the merch. and the tickets purchased to watch the movie in theaters. If I want an anime to succeed then I would care about what Japan thinks, not the Western audience. Nanoha is too niche a series to be trying to pander to both populations. It's hard for a MG show to succeed in the first place when the fanbase consists mainly of males. As opposed to something like Magoka Magica where both genders love it. Nevertheless, that series too, will go down the same trend if they plan on milking the franchise beyond the three movies. They're not going to side line their star players (Madoka and Homura) for other characters. It's just not a smart move on any level.

Really? You realize Dog Days is getting a third season, and that's nothing but catgirls getting their clothes shredded. Male pandering is the surest way to get your series funded. Nanoha, pandering to mainly men instead of young girls like most MG shows, should have been damn successful, then, by your logic. It wasn't. Sailor Moon beats the pants off it in popularity, as much as I hate to admit it.

I bet it could, but why settle for something that will be less profitable than a movie? Even if the series does really well, and sells 30k per disk release, it still probably can't compete with the movie.

False dichotomy. Because, why can't you do both a movie and a series and make money off both. Dragon Ball does it. One Piece does it. Bleach did it. Fairy Tail does it.

Originally Posted by Keroko

Long-term series that must air continuously are expensive and require a steady viewership to quantify further seasons, yes. And while long-running series that go on hiatus have a hard time coming back, this is easier for "seasonic" series that have clear start and endings each season (case in point, series like Sora no Otoshimono or Dog Days). Nanoha would fall into the later category.

Bolded emphasis mine. This is probably the best proof to showcase why Nanoha has low popularity compared to other series. At least, not as popular as others might like to believe.

However, there is a big difference between an anime series an an anime movie. Quality, for example. An anime series has far lower quality standards than a movie, which means the animators spend less time and can afford to outsource many in-betweens for even lower production cost. A movie does not have that luxury, thus increased time and money are required.

Actually, an anime series can have near-movie quality... it's all in the budget. You saw the difference from S1 to A's, where it was obvious they got a higher budget. You've watched anime of varying quality, so I know you've seen ones with awesome animation and lots of action.

And think about that quality for a moment... A 12 ep series has about 6 hours of animation. A movie runs about 2 hours. So, for the same price as a 12 ep series, you can have a movie with 3x the quality. Dial that back to 2x the quality, and a movie comes out cheaper and more directly pays for itself.

Also, if you believe competition for timeslots on TV is fierce, imagine for a moment what competition for cinema halls is like. Don't be mistaken, lots of time and money go into assuring your movie hits the cinema's.

I couldn't guess as to how the competition for movie theaters lines up against TV timeslots. All I know is that a movie better pays for itself, then a series does; first with the theaters, and then in DVD/BD sales. And the movie DVDs typically go for the same price as a DVD box set of 12 episodes... so you spend less money to make the same on DVD/BD sales.

Taking out the unknown variable as far as competition goes, you can see how clearly a movie is more profitable for a studio than a series. So even if we think movie theater is more competitive, it still makes financial sense to concentrate on a movie, to gauge interest.

I'm not sure how movie theaters work in Japan, but in the states, something like 95% of ticket sale money goes to the studio on the first week. The next week, the movie theater can probably keep 10% of the profit... then 15% on the following week. But movie viewership is decreasing all the while, and movie theaters need new films constantly to keep people coming in. There are only so many movie releases, and some specialize specifically in anime. Nanoha was only shown in specific select theaters, so it didn't get the exposure it could have. Thus, theaters would see Nanoha as a good idea, once made aware of a rabid otaku fanbase that would keep coming back to watch it... and thus make the theater more money week after week.

[Justin_Brett]

You realize Dog Days is getting a third season, and that's nothing but catgirls getting their clothes shredded.

If it got one because of shallow reasons, then Nanoha probably did too. They're going maximum lolicon now, but it was definitely there before. You just can't really ignore it now.

(and Dog Days is a good show)

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

And by the time of StrikerS, most of who were left were pedos who got damn upset that StrikerS took their lolis away. So they drifted off to other series.

But the best selling season was StrikerS, and that was the least pedo season.

And good riddance to losing those fans referring to adult Nanoha and Fate as "hags".