Patriotic -Are You?

[7thMethuselah]

Originally Posted by Dhomochevsky

@7thMethuselah:
Are the two lingual parts in belgium really living in different parts of the country?
(If so, which part is living in the south-east of belgium? ...in my neighborhood )

I see you are from Aachen. The southern part of belgium is french speaking, the northern part is flemish(dutch) speaking. So when you cross the border you will be in the ... German part. Yes I forgot to mention, belgium has a (small) german part as well, who are being treated just as bad as the flemish by the french. They have close to no right to defend their german culture and language, in fact the french are going through great lengths to assimilate it into a french speaking part (they even changed official town and street names allready from german to french, they block all political self-gorvernment for the germans, untill recently they were not allowed to have their kids attend classes which are given in german, etc...).
This german part of belgium was a "gift" from the Allied Forces to belgium after WWI and WWII. This gift was intended to make sure that the belgium government at the time would not interfere in the negotiations after WWII), so historically it should still be a part of germany ...
So in reality, when you cross that border you are onto french domain .

Here is a quickly made map that'll help explain the situation

Spoiler:

Originally Posted by Dhomochevsky

What you`re telling there sounds really bad. But I dont think splitting up is a good idea (although you could say I dont know what Im taling about ).
I mean, it could get very bad for the french living in the flandern part and the other way around if they would suddenly live in a foreign country. Would you tell them to give up there houses and move away? (maybe even move them by force? that happened a lot in history, its a terrible thing)

We have very detailed and complicated "language and culture laws" that protect the rights of minorities in our country. These laws apply to the distinctive parts of belgium as well, so the rights of the french in flanders are protected. If the country would be split, this would not pose a problem at all actually. It's a problem that has allready been discussed in fact among flemish politicians in favor of splitting. The general consensus was they french in flanders would be given a choice

1. They become flemish citizens, but their language is recognized as a minority. In essence they would have the right to use their own language but the administration of the country would become only one language. As flemish citizens they would be required to learn flemish. The same goes for the flemish living in the french part of belgium.

Is this a problem? Not really , first of all most french living in flanders (or flemish living in wallonia (the french part)) are bilangual, so for official business they would be required to use flemish, while in daily life they can use whatever they want. At this moment this is allready the way things are dealt in belgium officially. You are suppose to adapt to the language spoken in the part of the country you live in, the problem is the french refuse to use other languages and at the same time force flemish (and germans) to use french in wallonia.

Second of all, this is also not a problem because all citizens of our country are obliged to learn the language if they intend to live here (so not on vacation, but for permanent residents this is a requirement)

2. They stay walloon, at this moment they would become european union citizens who are effectively living abroad. The rights and duties of these people are allready protected by the European Union in this case, so not problem at all.

Originally Posted by Dhomochevsky

Second thing, if all the industries are in the flandern part, then wouldnt the french part get very poor, if theyre on their own?

The problem at this moment is that wallonia is indeed poorer then flanders. However, for the past 50 years or so flanders has been pouring billions of money into wallonia to get the economy up again. However, french politicians mostly used this money for other causes. The problem has become so big that flanders is having serious money problems at this moment due to these transfers, and they money is not used at all to improve the situation, insted it is used for prestegious projects of which very few people benefit.

Also the french set up a social system that basically means that once unemployed you cannot be kicked out of wellfare. This system is being payed with the money recieved from flanders. It's a system that discourages people to find a job and keeps french politicians who support this system firmly in power.

So while officially the money is being used to improve th economy, unofficially, the french have created fake offices and alot of wellfare which is being payed by the flemish.
Splitting the country or at least reducing this money stream for starters would force wallonia to invest and develop actual industries as well instead of the current system. Political analysts all say that the belgian system only survives because of the huge money pumped into it, and it is said that the current system will make belgium bankrupt in the next 20 years.
Also remember that when tsjechia and slovakia split in the early nineties they had a rich and poor part as well and a corrupt system like belgium as well. However because of the split heavy reforms were no longer blocked and after a a decade both pieces are doing better than the entire nation before.

Originally Posted by Dhomochevsky

Wouldnt it be better to do something similiar to our german "bundestaat" system?
Its called a federal system, right? The USA have something like that, too.
Things like education and culture are handled on that sublevel and every country can decide such things on their own if they dont break the law of the central governement.

We allready have a federal system in Belgium however it is very complicated and constructed to try and make sure no community can oppress the other. However in reality it's set up in such a way that the frnech have close to absolute power. In short it comes down to this :

Belgium has 7 ( SEVEN, yes that is not a typo) GOVERNMENTS

1. Federal Parlament + Federal Senate : the federal government
2. Flemish Parlament : government of flanders
3. Walloon Parlament (french speaking) : government of wallonia, the german territoties are a part of it, the french blocked the creation of a seperate german
4. Brussels Parlament : Brussels is a seperate federal entity in belgium and is in fact a city state within belgian borders
5. Flemish "gewestraad" : government of all flemish speaking people independent of where they live
6. French "gewestraad" : government of all french speaking people independent of where they live
7. German "gewestraad" : government of all german speaking people independent of where they live

The problem is that not all flemish live in flanders and not all walloons live in wallonia. Thus a flemish living in wallonia is subjected to different laws (which deal with the same subject) from up to 3 different governments. Hence the insane difficult situation.

Also, there are laws which can give one government the ability to block the laws or functions of other governments (even in cases which they have no interest in at all)

It takes specialists to seek out which law applies to which specific situation. Not to mention the enormmous bureaucracy attached to it. This complicated system is another thing that is strangling belgium. However none of the communities will ever give up their parlaments since we all know this will lead to one community oppressing the other again and it took the flemish 180 years to get this little bit of independece allready

Currently new negotiations are in progress to alter (read further complicate) this structure again. That's why many people now want a confederal system. The problem is if they switch to confederalism this will lead to alot of heated discussions among the two main communities. Usually this leads to a compromise to a situation in which even more complex structures are created and even more blocking laws are imposed thus making the situation worse. That's why we should go completely confederate (thus becoming two countries in one with a confederal government which can only decide about military and a few other departments)
Best would be to shake hands split and part ways


My apologies for this long and boring political post

[sheanight]

Originally Posted by Guts

I'm an american, simple enough? People that don't stand up for themselves, usually get knocked down.

... simple enough, is good enough for me .....

[HoboGod]

I love my country, but I think it sucks. the US has a great history behind it, there are some that I like better such as German history, English hstory, and Greek history, but considering we've only been independent for about 300 years, alot of interesting things have happened. the birth of new inventions and new technology, the stories of cowboys and outlaws, the lives of great american presidents, a civil war, a gold rush, the fights for freedom. American history had alot of great people and amazing stories, the history of America almost makes me a patriot.

But it doesn't. The following are reasons why UNITED STATES SUCKS BALLS:
(Warning: the following contains excessive hobo rantings and fist shaking, reader discression is advised.)

Spoiler:

• Represenitive Democracy is bullshit. It is the same princible as voting which acid to be boiled in. the ones who control the government can be and are in most cases corrupt. they hide behind the system to which we have elected them. they fuck us over and all we can do is trust them not to. the power changes periodically, thusly people cannot revolt against one leader. leaders can label revolutionists who fight for the good of the people as terrorists that attack american freedoms. they use false logic that makes them appear to be working toward the ideals of the people when they only work toward their own selfish ideals. I know not all politicians are like that, but those who are like that have too much power and those aren't have too little power.
• Two-party system is bullshit. How the fuck is that freedom? these 2 juggernaughts battle over which side you the people we be on. You can choose not to vote and passively agree that this is bullshit, or you can vote for a third party and watch it lose. The only way another party can actually win enough elections to make a difference is if those who vote for the party also JOIN the party. but most people would rather stay neutral because they are too buzy, not interested enough, or don't want to be a part of the corrupt political world.
• Electoral college is bullshit. it makes sence on paper. if a magority vote was counted, only heavily populated areas would be the target of political campaign and everyone other city would be fucked. if electoral points could be awarded to a person who didn't win the state, then third party canidates could hold points needed for another to win election. But seriously, this system worked back then when nobody saw the flaws, we need a new system of voting that people can't exploit or that will at least not be exploited for a while.
• Free market capitalism is bullshit. the very rich only become richer. the government is left paying to run the country while these piggies collect more money than they could actually use. what is the difference between capitalists overcharging for cheap goods to live in luxury and the king of england and his noblemen collecting taxes to live in luxury? are people so stupid that they think they and their fellow man can be a rich little capitalist too?

[bunnykun]

Originally Posted by kj1980

From my previous rants, you will know that I have a very pessimistic view of my country. While there are signs of improvement nowadays (finally), it has been a long and cold decade long recession with runaway suicide rates and crimes.


Confidence in the state diminishes when you have seen enough of people killing themselves by jumping onto an oncoming train. It also ends when you see Japanese schoolgirls as low as 13 selling their own bodies for +50,000 yen in "assisted dating" so they can get money to buy the latest Prada and Louis Vitton selections.

Patriotism ends when you see our so-called military (SDF) and the Ministry of Defense get into a stupid argument in Diet about whether Japanese peace keeping forces in Cambodia are allowed to carry handguns or not, with a yet another imprudent compromise - "Yes they will be allowed to carry handguns, but they cannot shoot unless they've been shot [at] first." Thanks a lot, Article 9.

When you hear enough stories about:
Teenagers having fun by "cleansing the streets" by randomly beating up homeless people
A middle school student decaptitating a mentally challenged child
Rampant teenage violence due to harsh bullying and the consequence of him/her committing suicide
Teachers molesting students
Students blackmailing teachers that they molested them when they didn't
A student killing another student because of a remark she made on an internet BBS board
A principal who died from overwork because the school board refused to accept his letter of resignation
An animator who died from overwork to keep up with time
Japanese salarymen who died from overwork because the corporate forces him to work excessive overtime
When a Japanese corporation refuses to give out overtime pay because they blame the employee for "lack of origanization" for "not completing his task at the given normal working hours"
When the term "death by overwork" actually becomes a justified term in the Japanese dictionary and is on gets on the list of insurance coverage
When you see the former Prime Minister continuing to play golf at an exclusive private course in a time of national emergency
When a governmental bill for our Ministry of Health and Welfare lists a incomprehensible listing of 1,000,000 yen for "soy sauce"
When the Tokyo Metropolitan Governor blames all the crimes and problem in Japan on "foreigners polluting our culture."
And countless others that I can't think of right now

I have to think "is my country worth dying for?" And why should I when my military doesn't even allow me to use weapons unless I am shot at? If an enemy targets me with an RPG, I can't shoot the guy because he hasn't fired it yet?


So, if my country goes to war, I'm moving my ass to Switzerland or Sweden.

Holy ****

Is japan really like that?

Some of the stuff you mentioned seems a bit cruel and whenever i see things things like that on tv i think its a it exaggerated. I guess thats just my ignorant attitude, probably cause since i live in the usa.

I guess i now know where they get those ideas for those cruel anime.

I think im a bit off topic i think.

[Sanjuronord]

Originally Posted by bunnykun

Some of the stuff you mentioned seems a bit cruel and whenever i see things things like that on tv i think its a it exaggerated. I guess thats just my ignorant attitude, probably cause since i live in the usa.

While you could write off a few of those as isolated incidents it is still obvious that Japan has some issues(probably more so than even the U.S.) with it's youth. The media in the U.S. has a big problem w/ blowing issues out of proportions but the real problem is the whole issue of the blame card when something goes down that needs to be dealt with and nothing ever gets resolved. When all the school shootings were happening in the U.S. it would get way blown out of proportion (though the moment you see somebody that was injured in one you can't help but feel it's very uncomfortably close -- there is a girl at my college that was shot in a school shooting and she's in a wheelchair probably for the rest of her life) and then nobody ever really pays the bill so to speak. I think the only thing that came out of it was that retail stores (wal-mart/k-mart) stopped selling handguns and ammo (because kids never get guns from careless parents; they buy em at walmart...). They tried to blame it on music, video games, police(in the Columbine incident I remember them blaming them for not acting fast enough), and who knows what else but they can't simply blame careless parents practically handing their kids guns(well not w/o inciting the rage of the NRA, rednecks, and Moses...). Sorry, long rant (probably even going off topic but hate how the country never seems to take care of anything internal) but you could make a very similar list about the U.S.

Originally Posted by HoboGod

leaders can label revolutionists who fight for the good of the people as terrorists that attack american freedoms. they use false logic that makes them appear to be working toward the ideals of the people when they only work toward their own selfish ideals.

It's a fine line between revolutionist and terrorist and often depends on the perspective of the person making the judgement. Also, at this point you almost can't even speak your mind without being called a traitor/terrorist in the United States(not as bad as it was say six monthes to a year ago) but like srb said the American freedom of speech is overrated (I'd call it dead myself, your speech is only protected if it's the mainstream consensus[sorry probably misspelled]).

As for false logic, I've been watching fox news off and on since the 9/11 commission made that comment about no connection to Iraq and Al-queda regarding 9/11 and they've really been playing it down and trying to make the commission look foolish. (to paraphrase Frank Black: cause when i think impartial news casting...oh yes, I think Fox News) They've done everything from blaming bill clinton for not taking down hussein (though they fail to mention the one big question...WHY should he have?) and pointing out (I think it was) the russian government agreed there was a connection (but trying to downplay that russia didn't think it was a big enough deal to go to war over). It's just ridiculous when a leader can claim a direct connection and never offer any proof. It's like having a murder trial w/ no evidence, no testimony, and the jury is just told by the prosecutor that he's guilty. It's not democracy it's exactly what HoboGod called it...

Spoiler:

bull excrement...

Originally Posted by HoboGod

You can choose not to vote and passively agree that this is bullshit, or you can vote for a third party and watch it lose

"All hail President Kang!"
Marge:"I don't understand why we have to build a ray gun to aim at a planet we've never even heard of"
Homer:"Don't blame me...I voted for Kodos"
There is no better parody of the american voting system than when Ross Perot can't even get enough votes to beat two aliens hellbent on enslaving the country (world? though how they'd do that by winning the us election i have no idea..). Also I find marge's comment kinda funny when you compare it to one of those pro-war country songs where the artist says he can't tell the different between Iraq and Iran but he's a 100% behind the war...

Originally Posted by HoboGod

we need a new system of voting that people can't exploit or that will at least not be exploited for a while.

Yep, but what we don't need is that computer voting system that they were wanting to do. I haven't even graduated from college yet and I could write a program that would rig the election.

Edit: good thing i posted on this page, thanks to 7thMethuselah I'm only the second longest post on this page! Woohoo...

[H2-FumoGuu]

I'm somehwat patriotic. My loyalty lies with America and I'm not white. I've met way too many people in this country who are not white and go around thinking, "it's my xxx race vs all the white people". Sheesh.

That said, I would never go to willingly go to war for my country. I just don't feel like dying, that's all.

[xavier8200]

I am a black american.

Nowhere in anyway patriotic. This country has way too many things that are out of wack for me to even think of myself a little patriotic. If I am going to fight for something I have to believe in it 100% and I dont even believe in america 25% I would without a doubt fight for people important to me and people that are in trouble. But to fight in Iraq or for the Bush administration that would be an impossibility. I just wouldnt go. Its not a matter of im black and screw this nation because Americans dont look out for me and my kind.

Its more like screw this nation because Americans and the governement wont and refuses to look after their own kind. Thats just the way that I feel

[Sid_Burn]

I've been a patriot of Hitler for sometime now... I really liked his speeches... it was so hypnotic... if I can build a time machine(like those in the movie "time machine") I'll warp to 1942 and will tell Hitler on how the allies would win the war... I just love a bad future... anyway that's how I show how patriotic I am to Hitler...

[dreamless]

I'll join a war to defend my country... well actually I have to... of course I won't enlist to fight a war to invade another country... but then invading another country is an impossibility for my country anyway...

[Scrumhalf]

Originally Posted by Sid_Burn

I've been a patriot of Hitler for sometime now... I really liked his speeches... it was so hypnotic... if I can build a time machine(like those in the movie "time machine") I'll warp to 1942 and will tell Hitler on how the allies would win the war... I just love a bad future... anyway that's how I show how patriotic I am to Hitler...

[Scrumhalf]

Sid Burn: So I take it you're proud of Germany's achievements and outcomes during World War II? I didn't think that there would be Germans still supporting Adolf Hitler. Isn't that like a crime in Germany today?

What do you think of Jews?

[Sid_Burn]

Originally Posted by Scrumhalf

you may laugh as long as you want... but it will never destroy my loyalty to hitler(even if I know that he's a badass person)...

[Sid_Burn]

Originally Posted by Scrumhalf

Sid Burn: So I take it you're proud of Germany's achievements and outcomes during World War II? I didn't think that there would be Germans still supporting Adolf Hitler. Isn't that like a crime in Germany today?

What do you think of Jews?

too bad I am not in Germany now... and I am not german... but ever since I read his book titled "Mein Kampf"... I suddenly became patriotic to him...

wat I think about the jews? I dont care about them and I dont even hate them... I just like Hitler's achievements in WWII... and ofcourse his speeches...

[HoboGod]

i agree, hitler did some damn good things for germany. german economy was suffering from the effects of WWI and the very BOGUS Treaty of Versailles. by becoming militaristic, hitler provided jobs for unemployed germans. by taking other countries, he regained land and goods stolen from germany.

he was very influencial among his people. they would follow him like alexander the great. if he had won that war, the world would have been united under one ruler. it would be like when the roman empire ruled europe. all was peaceful and learning, art, music, and literature flourished.

anyone who thinks hitler was not worth being patriotic over is obviously brainwashed by post-WWII propaganda (which they enforce even today in german schools.)

[Serendipity]

Originally Posted by HoboGod

i agree, hitler did some damn good things for germany. german economy was suffering from the effects of WWI and the very BOGUS Treaty of Versailles. by becoming militaristic, hitler provided jobs for unemployed germans. by taking other countries, he regained land and goods stolen from germany.

he was very influencial among his people. they would follow him like alexander the great. if he had won that war, the world would have been united under one ruler. it would be like when the roman empire ruled europe. all was peaceful and learning, art, music, and literature flourished.

anyone who thinks hitler was not worth being patriotic over is obviously brainwashed by post-WWII propaganda (which they enforce even today in german schools.)

I agree... even though Hitler did some very terrible things, he also did a lot of good for the country. I think he just got too power-happy...

As for propaganda, I guess that the Germans are trying to ensure that there won't a repeat of the past...

[Jinto]

Originally Posted by HoboGod

i agree, hitler did some damn good things for germany.

These things are nothing compared to the suffering he caused during the war.

german economy was suffering from the effects of WWI and the very BOGUS Treaty of Versailles. by becoming militaristic, hitler provided jobs for unemployed germans.

And all that was paid with money from the thousands of jews that were killed, and the whole german national budget. When the war began germany was literally bankrupt (even worse highly in dept).

by taking other countries, he regained land and goods stolen from germany.

You know what, after Hitler's stupid war germany had less land and goods than before, so whats your point?

he was very influencial among his people. they would follow him like alexander the great.

Not all followed his propaganda. But due to the fact that being a political opponent meant death, everybody prentended to be on his side. As an effect of this, the new born generations really believed in Hitler because they never learned something else than the propaganda of Hitler and Goebbels/Himmler.

if he had won that war, the world would have been united under one ruler. it would be like when the roman empire ruled europe. all was peaceful and learning, art, music, and literature flourished.

You'ld never been free in what you do in a totalitarian, police state. Did you see Equilibrium? Thats pretty much what was going on here... Kids blaming their parents in school for not being good nazis, resulting in the deportation of the parents.
Your learning, art, music and literature will only be peacefull as long as you follow the guidelines of the regime, if you do something against the regime (some unarische art i.e.) you will really fast end up imprisoned.
And maybe I should add this date May 10th 1933 "Bücherverbrennung" (book burning). After Goebbels "Feuerrede" (fire speech), all over germany million of books from famous german novelists and authors burned in huge hists.

anyone who thinks hitler was not worth being patriotic over is obviously brainwashed by post-WWII propaganda (which they enforce even today in german schools.)

Everybody who thinks patriotic over Hitler has no clue what he and the NSDAP regime really did. The Nürnberg laws, Reichkristallnacht, concentration/death camps and many other crimes against humanity.

[Bracken33]

I agree... even though Hitler did some very terrible things, he also did a lot of good for the country. I think he just got too power-happy...

Every human does good and bad things in his life but it is important to weight them.
What are his few good deeds worth in the end if you take a look at the whole picture?
Hitler was really one of the biggest abdominations in human history.
The holocaust and his racism make me sick.

if he had won that war, the world would have been united under one ruler. it would be like when the roman empire ruled europe. all was peaceful and learning, art, music, and literature flourished.

You are for sure an optimist.
With the whole "Untermenschen" and "Herrenrasse" concept I believe that after a german victory many people would have to live in slavery or simply would have been killed. Great peace that is is...eliminate everything different.
It would be no utopia, more like 1984.
Also how could art, music and literature have flourished under the nazis? Ever heard of burning books or banning art?

anyone who thinks hitler was not worth being patriotic over is obviously brainwashed by post-WWII propaganda (which they enforce even today in german schools.)

I do not try to be wise ass. In retrospective it is easy to be smart.
If Hitler would have stopped before invading Poland and there would have been no racism I probably would have admired him too as a contemporary. But this is of course mere speculation, because I am not a contemporary of him.

In retrospective with the knowledge we have today for me it is just dumb to be patriotic because of Hitler. This guy destroyed half of Europe and killed millions for nothing.
If I had a timemachine I would shoot him myself. Those who tried to assassinate him were the true patriots imho.
(Ok, I wouldn´t really shoot him because changing the timeline is very dangerous . Thank you StarTreck . )

... I just like Hitler's achievements in WWII...

His achievements in WWII?

Like beginning a two front war?
Like overruling the dicisions of some very competent german generals and causing one military desaster after another?

Even Stalin was smarter then our glorious "Führer". He noticed that he was not a good military leader and transfered the military command to his generals in the later phases of the war.
Hitler was very charismatic but imho a very bad military leader...

And then he even comitted suicide instead of facing the consequences. Yeah, great man he was...not.

Political discussions in english suck. I stop for now .

[Sid_Burn]

Originally Posted by Bracken33

Even Stalin was smarter then our glorious "Führer". He noticed that he was not a good military leader and transfered the military command to his generals in the later phases of the war.
Hitler was very charismatic but imho a very bad military leader...

Atleast he won great victories from 1939-1943... I'd say he's still a great military leader...

Originally Posted by Bracken33

And then he even comitted suicide instead of facing the consequences. Yeah, great man he was...not.

Hmmm... I think he really did'nt commited suicide... from wat i've heard the body found burned on the eagle's nest(was that eagle's nest... I forgot...) by the end of WWII was'nt really Hitler's body... I also heard he survive on 1945 and mysteriously disappeard on 1946... that's the story i've heard on Discovery Channel(I forgot the name of the show)... that was 5 months ago...

[HoboGod]

Originally Posted by Jinto Lin

These things are nothing compared to the suffering he caused during the war.

that is what happens in war, people suffer. but you aren't going to change the world with peaceful negociations. zealots don't understand words, but they understand pain.

Originally Posted by Jinto Lin

And all that was paid with money from the thousands of jews that were killed, and the whole german national budget. When the war began germany was literally bankrupt (even worse highly in dept).

the jews were living in ghettos. they had little money as it was. nobody liked jews. In times of prosparity, they were the lower class, in times of depression, they were reduced to being beggers and theives to stay alive. germany was near bankrupt because of the Treaty of Versailles. you ever read up on that treaty? it was an underhanded thing for the Allies to force upon germany.

Originally Posted by Jinto Lin

You know what, after Hitler's stupid war germany had less land and goods than before, so whats your point?T

germany started the war becuase they were raped of their land and of their money... they started that war to get it back! you call that a stupid reason to war? what would be a good reason to war, then? what more would germany have to endure before they had a good reason to fight back? they lost alot because they lost, but either side would have lost alot. if germany won, the allies would have lost alot. the winner writes the history books.

Originally Posted by Jinto Lin

Not all followed his propaganda. But due to the fact that being a political opponent meant death, everybody prentended to be on his side. As an effect of this, the new born generations really believed in Hitler because they never learned something else than the propaganda of Hitler and Goebbels/Himmler.

this is exactly the post-war propaganda i was talking about. just because people changed their opinion after the war doesn't mean they only pretended to like him all along.

Originally Posted by Jinto Lin

You'ld never been free in what you do in a totalitarian, police state. Did you see Equilibrium? Thats pretty much what was going on here... Kids blaming their parents in school for not being good nazis, resulting in the deportation of the parents.
Your learning, art, music and literature will only be peacefull as long as you follow the guidelines of the regime, if you do something against the regime (some unarische art i.e.) you will really fast end up imprisoned.
And maybe I should add this date May 10th 1933 "Bücherverbrennung" (book burning). After Goebbels "Feuerrede" (fire speech), all over germany million of books from famous german novelists and authors burned in huge hists.

during war times, that is true. but also during war times, United States and Russia were as bad and sometimes worse. Joseph Stallin killed anyone with extended education. Americans sent japanese-american citizens to camps. to start a new era, the old must be destroyed. people that weren't nazis had to be converted. if they could not be converted, they would have to kill them. we are all products of our enviroment. what is the fucking difference between being only given certain choices and being forced certain choices? in the end, you still have to choose.

Originally Posted by Jinto Lin

Everybody who thinks patriotic over Hitler has no clue what he and the NSDAP regime really did. The Nürnberg laws, Reichkristallnacht, concentration/death camps and many other crimes against humanity.

i know perfectly well. what hitler did wasn't nice, but it was nessisary. everyone knows about the haulocaust, but how many people talk about the russian pogrom? Russians legalized the killing of jews. angry mobs pulled jews from their houses and slaughtered them. all this was just to make jews leave the country. the nazis used more human methods before resorting to death camps. they sent them off on boats to other countries. alot of people (including U.S.) just turned them away. having jews living in ghettos hurt the country. they contributed to overpopulation, crime, and disease. it isn't nice, but the earth must be scourched before new seeds are planted.

Originally Posted by Bracken33

You are for sure an optimist.
With the whole "Untermenschen" and "Herrenrasse" concept I believe that after a german victory many people would have to live in slavery or simply would have been killed. Great peace that is is...eliminate everything different.
It would be no utopia, more like 1984.
Also how could art, music and literature have flourished under the nazis? Ever heard of burning books or banning art?

burning books and banning art strengthened hitler's power. if he won the war and controlled the world, then he would not need to continue such methods. a new era would bring new art. hitler used his more extreme "racial clensing" as an excuse to eliminate his opposition. hitler mostly targeted groups associated with economical burdon such as jews, gypsies, and cripples. slavery and killing would only apply to the lower class and those who resist the nazis.

and i'm not saying it would be utopia. history will always repeat itself and the world will always return to the brink of chaos. the nazis had a dream. hitler wanted to accoplish that dream. that dream wasn't so bad. i wouldn't nessisarily prefer living under nazi rule, but it isn't often that one man can lead a country to change the face of the earth.

Originally Posted by Bracken33

Hitler was very charismatic but imho a very bad military leader...

yep... hitler was a dumbass who didn't listen to his generals. it fucked him over in the end.

Originally Posted by Bracken33

And then he even comitted suicide instead of facing the consequences. Yeah, great man he was...not.

O_O... if he didn't kill himself, he would have been captured by the russians. the russians did worse things to germans than germans did to jews. *shudders*

[Bracken33]

I have to say that I am quite shocked after reading your post HoboGod.

burning books and banning art strengthened hitler's power. if he won the war and controlled the world, then he would not need to continue such methods.

I have already said that I think you are an optimist.
Take a look around in our current world. How many dictators do you know which voluntarily gave some of their powers back?
No matter if they rule a banana republik of 1 million people or the whole world.
Controlling their people is very important for dictators.

the jews were living in ghettos. they had little money as it was. nobody liked jews. In times of prosparity, they were the lower class, in times of depression, they were reduced to being beggers and theives to stay alive. ...

I don´t know where you get your infos from. Just do a little google search that will help you a lot.

In the Weimar Republik many Jews were mercantilists, artists or scientists.
Just one quote from a website I found (I translated it, I hope I made no mistake):

"In the Weimar Republik 5 of 15 german Nobel Price winners were Jews: Albert Einstein (physics), Otto Meyerhof (medicin), James Frank (physics), Gustav Hertz (physics), Otto H. Warburg (medicin)."

Also note that the Jews were only about 1% of the population of the Weimar Republik.

So again: Where do you get your infos from? The Jews were not beggars or thieves.

germany started the war becuase they were raped of their land and of their money... they started that war to get it back! you call that a stupid reason to war?

No that was not a good reason to go to war imho.
He basically had everything what he wanted in 1938. Versailles was effectively null and void in 1938.
If he stopped before Poland our history would at least be half bearable.
But Hitler and the Nazis had to fullfill all their delusional ideas...

that dream wasn't so bad.

I don´t know how your dreams look like but I would call Hitlers dreams nightmares.

O_O... if he didn't kill himself, he would have been captured by the russians. the russians did worse things to germans than germans did to jews. *shudders*

I feel great reluctance to compare such abominable crimes and figure out which were worse.
I can assure to you that germans did so evil things to Jews and other people that hardly anything more abominable can exist in human history.
Have you ever heard of Dr. Josef Mengele HoboGod?

Also an aditional question: Do you consider yourself a racist HoboGod?