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Originally Posted by Orga777
Actually, I have to say it wasn't just that his Geass went out of control. If he learned to hold his tongue and wasn't bragging unnecessarily none of that would have happened. Also, the only reason he stopped his plan was because he would have gotten something out of it (Euphie gave up the crown.)
Ah, I always love a good debate. 
Right... How about no. What was his plan? Sit there and hope for the best? As Aquaman OS put it, he had no plan.
Yeah? HOW? He can barely function in battles without using his Geass.
The luck area. Lelouch was lucky Suzaku was there.
 Then why are you going to insult the way Britannia operates by slaughtering people if Lelouch operates the same way? It sounds very contradictory to me.
No it isn't. Again, just because the director sees things one way does not make it the absolute truth in an anime that is no where close to cut and dry. I brought this up before in another topic. Just because the director has a view on something does NOT mean that there can't be opposing view points on the matter. If there wasn't all of these topics in general are a waste of time and shouldn't even need to be discussed. But since it is obvious people have different views, they are being discussed. There is no one truth to interperate something.
I have to disagree. He is going about this a totally different way than Lelouch is. He wants to change things internally. Before he showed up, did anyone ever think that any non-Britannian could pilot a KMF? Or become a knight? Nope. As Deithard even said right in Season One right after Suzaku first became a Knight, the Britannian's now have a symbol that can garner them support from the 11's. If Zero didn't keep pressing things and cause pandemonium everywhere he goes who KNOWS what would have happened.
And what has Lelouch accomplished besides more conflict, pain, and death?
His "plan" would never have been put into action. Where would he get the money, power, army, and everything else? He was just telling himself that to make himself feel better so that he didn't need to think his life was useless.
Um... Nunnally is now a noble that supports change and he DOES obviously support her. Also, I don't think Schneizel wants to just wipe out and oppress people for that matter (he did love the idea of the SAZ when Euphie proposed it after all.)
Yes. So he CAN change the system.
Like Lelouch's 'plan' to just wipe everyone out?
He hardly used them as a crutch. As canis said, he just doesn't like Zero (and who can blame him) so he thought about doing it. He then remembered what happened with Euphie and definitly didn't want to see that happen again. The only thing you have to go one with that is that he thought of it because he despises Zero. Not that he is indecisive.
Because he knows he can't forgive him deep down. Is that so wrong? That is NORMAL HUMAN EMOTION. Zero was responsible for killing someone close to him and used her to kill a bunch of people effectively dragging her good name through the mud. Who WOULDN'T doubt it? But did he let it happen? No he didn't so you can say all you want, but being human is not a weakness OR a fault. Try again please.
I will still say Schneizel is not some epitome of evil doing. He actually prefers diplomacy over battle and he is in pretty good position to do something about it. We will just have to wait and see on that matter though. |
Which is why I said he was saying stupid things, Lelouch had a big mouth and it bit him in the ass. If he just let it go that Euphie didn't believe him about being able to order her to do whatever then everything would have been fine. And what good did it do him to have Euphie give up the crown? It did not benefit him at all, if anything it just surprised him that Euphie was willing to go so far and made him realise that she was the same person as when they were kids and that he can't fight her.
This isn't a debate, its an arguement going in circles now. You don't appear to be bringing anything new to the discussion and for that matter neither am I really, just rehashing old points and getting more and more tiresome by the miniute.
Lelouch's leadership and tactical abilties is what made the Japanese follow him, not his geass. Those are the major reasons for his success, though his certainly helps. He may have had a harder time of it, but it doesn't mean he would sit around and do nothing had he not have met C.C.
I wasn't condeming Britannia for the massacre, rather the fact that Suzaku would let it happen and even aid it while still professing to have joined the army for the purpose of helping those that are being slaughtered.
My response was to your idea that there are somehow rules and that "heart" and compassion has a place in war. There is no such thing as a "clean" war, it is just a matter of whose better at keeping their dirt in the closet better then others when the dust settles. Results are what ultimately the thing that matters most, although Lelouch was dangerously close to becoming what he hated in following his path of carnage.
Dann has basically covered what I'd say, so I'll save myself the trouble if you don't mind. Only thing I would add is that again Suzaku has not really been doing much to change the system from within. The SAZ does not count in my book for the simple reason that, what they are doing is basically what we did to the Native Americans. Shove them onto a reserve to keep them happy. The SAZ really has no real power, Nunally would not be able to do a thing if the Emperor decided to shut her down. And really it does not change Britannia's system at all. They only get thier right to call themselves Japanese in that small area and still have no real power. What constitutes as change in my book is that if the Numbers were afforded the same opportunities as a Britannian within the Areas. And again it was Nunally who restarted the SAZ, not Suzaku, and initially Suzaku even questioned her about it.
You're right, before he came along no numbers can be a knight, must less a knight of a Princess. Now heres the question, what exactly has changed for the better for the Japanese because of it? Would another number be able to become a Knight, or afforded the chance he was?
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Really now? This:
"He wants to help people and condems Lelouch's way is wrong, and yet his way of joining the side that are committing massacres, and even standing aside and allowing them is right?"
applies that you are condemning Suzaku for being on the Britannian side.
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Right, and once again I will state, what I was "condemning" was the fact that he himself was condemning someone for doing things the "wrong" way while he himself did not offer any solution or plan to make the situation any better.
When was it Lelouch's plan to wipe out everyone? His long term goal was to destroy Britannia, they may have to be sacrifices towards his goal but he is not planning armageddon.
Suzaku may not be a Zero fan but one of the points I got from R2 was that his anger towards Zero has diminished and he actually wants some answers from Lelouch as to why he chose to do that to Euphie when someone like him could have chosen a differant way. My point about the million Zero incident that you seem to be missing was that, he at first thought that the right thing to do would be to suppress them, but he used the fact that Euphie and Nunnally wanted to forgive him, I will restate this, he let the Zeros go because Euphie and Nunnally wanted to give Zero forgiveness rather then to take revenge. Now flash forward to crazed tablefap questioning why isn't he taking revenge for Euphie. He's behing indecisive right there, instead of breaking those two points apart in your reply read them together. Oh and there was the incident with the execution order for the soldier that tried to kill him that Anya had to sign because he couldn't make up his mind.
Now about Schneizel, I don't take anything he does at face value. He is too much like Lelouch and he just hasn't shown up enough to get a really good read on him yet. I mean having crazy Nina make him a nuke does not really scream good will to mankind to me. Allthough he does seem decent enough so far.
He will probably come in when the other Knights of Rounds get in on the action though.
