[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Renall]

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

Edit: Off topic, concerning Ange and Maria in arc 4.
Over reading the whole thing about magic... I've came to wonder something...
Ange believed Maria cried all night long and made a mess out of her room out of frustration, but then wrote things differently in her diary. Should that view remain true it tends to implies that this sort of "magic" is something that is done afterward. Like reinterpreting your past and convince yourself it was that way. The chronology of the "future" of arc 4 is also sorta messed up. Ange at St-Lucile doesn't seem any younger and overall the events suggest the scenes we see there don't seem to have happened long ago. However when referring to her using magic they talk about long ago. I'm starting to think an interpretation of this is that starting from when she was in the hotel room she began to rewrite her own memories. That ended up including the whole things with the stakes at St-Lucile.

On the opposite side of that coin, we have ep5, where Erika insinuates that "truth" can be determined after the fact as the scenario which fits the facts presented and accepted. Whether or not it's actually true. And in a certain sense, the only way to ever collapse the cat box is for a single truth to emerge... how do we actually know it's true at all?

So what line are we walking here? Ange's subjectivity is apparently embraced. Erika's is rejected.

[Cao Ni Ma]

I think the reason why Ange looks the way she does while in school is probably just RO07 not wanting to make a new character just for a few scenes. Like how that family picture had a mini version of Ange with the same clothes she normally has.

As for the Erica interpretation. I think its partly correct on how quantum mechanics work and what the whole cat box thing is. The thing is that we dont choose its end state, the quanta decide for itself how it will appear to us. That does not mean thats the truth though, all of em at the same time are true.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

As for the Erica interpretation. I think its partly correct on how quantum mechanics work and what the whole cat box thing is. The thing is that we dont choose its end state, the quanta decide for itself how it will appear to us. That does not mean thats the truth though, all of em at the same time are true.

For the record Schrodingers Catbox was used to show the absurdity of quantum theory not demonstrate it. Schrodinger thought while chasing particles physicists were looking for things that don't actually exist. In reality the Cat can only be alive or dead, but not both. Or there exist different realities where the cat is alive and not dead or dead and not alive. That is unless you use more than one cat.

[Cao Ni Ma]

It is a critique of the Copenhagen interpretation at the macroscopic level but that doesn't stop it from being correct. There's is equal probability of the cat being alive or dead so you interpret it as it being both at the same time, at least until its observed. Things get wonky when you try to equalize quanta to cats.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

It is a critique of the Copenhagen interpretation at the macroscopic level but that doesn't stop it from being correct. There's is equal probability of the cat being alive or dead so you interpret it as it being both at the same time, at least until its observed. Things get wonky when you try to equalize quanta to cats.

Yeah that's why he chose a cat. Because with particles it makes sense since they buzz in and out of existence all the time. It's not meant to apply to cats. What the thought experiment is intended to show is that the cat was never both alive and dead. It was either dead or alive before you observed it. So the person who interprets it as both is supposed to look silly. And because this made physicists look silly different theories had to evolve from it.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

This is assuming that the Yoshiya name isn't made up or that the entire Lion universe isn't a complete and absolute fiction.

Given that Ep6 apparently has "no difficulty" whereas Ep7 does, I think we should start taking more things in the former at face value, such as the Yoshiya thing.

As for how Battler knows it, I don't think it really matters. What we should be asking is why Hachijou knows it.


As for Lambdadelta's goals... given that her entire purpose is one of the few big loose ends as far as the meta-world storyline goes, I think we may find out in Ep8.

[Cao Ni Ma]

Originally Posted by Judoh

Yeah that's why he chose a cat. Because with particles it makes sense since they buzz in and out of existence all the time. It's not meant to apply to cats. What the thought experiment is intended to show is that the cat was never both alive or dead. It was either dead or alive before you observed it. So the person who interprets as both is supposed to look silly.

Again, putting a cat (or any living or conscious thing in the first place) to substitute a quanta is a dumb idea. The Copenhagen interpretation is still the most popular interpretation because physicist shut up and got calculating.

There really is no purely objective way to analyze the events in Rokkenjima with what we've been given right now, so we cant really determine its state. That is, its more likely to be in a superposition that it being in a alive or dead status.

e- Lets just shut up about this and get calculating though.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

Again, putting a cat (or any living or conscious thing in the first place) to substitute a quanta is a dumb idea. The Copenhagen interpretation is still the most popular interpretation because physicist shut up and got calculating.

There really is no purely objective way to analyze the events in Rokkenjima with what we've been given right now, so we cant really determine its state. That is, its more likely to be in a superposition that it being in a alve or dead status.

e- Lets just shut up about this and get calculating though.

It would be more honest to call it the copenhagen or many worlds interpretation Instead of using an analogy that criticizes it is all I'm saying.

The state Rokkenjima should be revealed to be at the end should then be. Either mystery or fantasy. Either murder or accident. For the alive or dead thing. In the end it's only one of these unless the choices in episode 8 lead to different interpretations. And even then we're not really getting one real answer. Instead we get to see all the possible answers.

See? I was getting somewhere.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

As for how Battler knows it, I don't think it really matters. What we should be asking is why Hachijou knows it.

You say that like there's any distinction.

[AuraTwilight]

Given that Ep6 apparently has "no difficulty" whereas Ep7 does, I think we should start taking more things in the former at face value, such as the Yoshiya thing.

Kanon's true name was never a mystery meant for a player to solve, so it really has no bearing on difficulty. And if Kanon doesn't actually exist and is some split personality or whatever, having a true name makes no goddamn sense unless he made it up on the spot.

As for how Battler knows it, I don't think it really matters. What we should be asking is why Hachijou knows it.

Why can't Hachijou know it the same way Battler does?

As for Lambdadelta's goals... given that her entire purpose is one of the few big loose ends as far as the meta-world storyline goes, I think we may find out in Ep8.

I thought Lambda's goals were pretty clear-cut and simple. She wants to trap Bernkastel and keep her glued to the boob tube forever so she won't escape her yandere grip.

Basically, it's a witchy sort of love proposal where Bern will put up with Lambda's company so long as Lambda provides entertainment.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Renall

You say that like there's any distinction.

Well, that's just it, yeah? Sorc-Battler is Hachijou's character. Therefore, Hachijou knows the truth.

Why?

[Renall]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Why can't Hachijou know it the same way Battler does?

They do a double trollface in ep8 and proclaim: "Lucky guess."

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Kanon's true name was never a mystery meant for a player to solve, so it really has no bearing on difficulty. And if Kanon doesn't actually exist and is some split personality or whatever, having a true name makes no goddamn sense unless he made it up on the spot.

Might as well ask why Shannon has a "true name", then.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Why can't Hachijou know it the same way Battler does?

Well, Sorc-Battler, as the Game Master, has the ability to view any Fragment he wishes. Hachijou, on the other hand, is a normal human being with no magical powers of any kind, Featherine nonwithstanding.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

I thought Lambda's goals were pretty clear-cut and simple. She wants to trap Bernkastel and keep her glued to the boob tube forever so she won't escape her yandere grip.

Basically, it's a witchy sort of love proposal where Bern will put up with Lambda's company so long as Lambda provides entertainment.

My issue with that is how much of a chessmaster-type Lambda comes off as. Reread the Ep5 Tea Party again; she seems to be anticipating Battler's resurrection, something that surprised Bern.

And then there's Young Eva's suspiciously Lambda-like powers.... Kyrie ranting about a "Master".... you get the idea.

Originally Posted by Renall

They do a double trollface in ep8 and proclaim: "Lucky guess."

The only good thing about that would be Battler finally getting to troll someone.

[Jan-Poo]

There is a reason for Shannon to have a "true" name: she went to school.

Kanon probably never had to deal with this kind of problems.

[UsagiTenpura]

Originally Posted by Renall

On the opposite side of that coin, we have ep5, where Erika insinuates that "truth" can be determined after the fact as the scenario which fits the facts presented and accepted. Whether or not it's actually true. And in a certain sense, the only way to ever collapse the cat box is for a single truth to emerge... how do we actually know it's true at all?

So what line are we walking here? Ange's subjectivity is apparently embraced. Erika's is rejected.

It's interesting in that angle that Ange's "subjectivity" includes fantasy scenes, while Erika.... tho her view is full of things that range from wrong to lies she's aware of... is actually making a non fantasy explanation of the events.

Is that a message?

[AuraTwilight]

Might as well ask why Shannon has a "true name", then.

You're absolutely right, and that's exactly where I was going with that. The names might only exist to flesh out what were two-dimensional characters, being made three-dimensional "humans" in pursuit of love.

Well, Sorc-Battler, as the Game Master, has the ability to view any Fragment he wishes. Hachijou, on the other hand, is a normal human being with no magical powers of any kind, Featherine nonwithstanding.

Well, if we're going that route, then Hachijou is just a human avatar Featherine created while fucking with Ange's timeline and memory, natch.

My issue with that is how much of a chessmaster-type Lambda comes off as. Reread the Ep5 Tea Party again; she seems to be anticipating Battler's resurrection, something that surprised Bern.

And then there's Young Eva's suspiciously Lambda-like powers.... Kyrie ranting about a "Master".... you get the idea.

Because if Battler doesn't revive, then Bern is winnar and she leaves. See the problem?

Young Eva and Kyrie don't add any light onto anything as far as Lambda's character goes. They're just two humans appealing for her power of Certainty. Lots of people do that.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

You're absolutely right, and that's exactly where I was going with that. The names might only exist to flesh out what were two-dimensional characters, being made three-dimensional "humans" in pursuit of love.

Well, then you have to ask who came up with "Yoshiya" to begin with. Was it Yasu or Hachijou?

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Well, if we're going that route, then Hachijou is just a human avatar Featherine created while fucking with Ange's timeline and memory, natch.

But that's a ludicrous explanation. You can't use 'it was magic' as a justification for why someone knows things that she shouldn't. Things have to make sense from a 'real-world' perspective too.

This is especially true if Hachijou is the writer of Ep7 as well.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Because if Battler doesn't revive, then Bern is winnar and she leaves. See the problem?

Not that. Lambda wouldn't have gone along with Bern's plan to execute everyone and everything connected to Beatrice if she was still planning to trap her inside a logic error again.

I'm saying that it's possible Lambda PLANNED for Battler's defeat and subsequent revival.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

There is a reason for Shannon to have a "true" name: she went to school.

Kanon probably never had to deal with this kind of problems.

Because Kanon is 'less real' than Shannon, yeah. This, along with Battler's memories of Shannon, probably indicates that Yasu more physically resembles her than s/he does Kanon.

By the way, what does everyone think the portrait for Ep8 will be?

[UsagiTenpura]

Hachijou is first scene in a scene that never happened.
That scene should have happened during arc 4. Yet in arc 6 they discuss arc 4 and 5.
I seriously doubt Hachijou is any more real then Featherine.

[Renall]

The portrait should just straight-up be the culprit, whoever it is. With the smuggest grin.

"That's right, I'm just gonna tell you it was me upfront. Deal with it."

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

I seriously doubt Hachijou is any more real then Featherine.

Hachijou is writing a fictionalized version of a meeting that already happened, is how I interpreted it.

Originally Posted by Renall

Deal with it.

They should probably be wearing dark sunglasses then, as well.