[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Ep. 4 Alliance of the golden witch

[Varion]

Poll is working now. I'm not sure who to vote for... hmm...

Why is Rosa so high though? This chapter made me hate her more than ever

Originally Posted by ClockWorkAngel

Who ever made that site had wayyy too much time on their hands.

Nah, it's a bizzare marketing campaign done by a makeup company that targets men where you upload a face pic and it sticks it into the template. Still hilarious though.

[Rias]

Not suprisingly (?) Eva-Beatrice won the first day's poll... Ep3 sure left a strong impact. (and probably the end part of ep4)

[Sterling01]

I'm stuck between Ange and Battler...
Also why is Hanyuu on the list?

[Rias]

same reason as why "「断る」心理テクニック" is on the list...people can add their own entries on the poll

[Golden Witch Drugs]

Spoiler for Kinzo's death, Ep 1:

I just came up with this... In ep 1 where Kinzo is fryed in the kitchen, they recognize his corpse only by his 6 toes. And since Kinzo is already dead, that can't be his corpse. So maybe one of Kinzo's children had 6 toes in genres? Maybe it was Rudolf (Since it most likley was a man). And since the faces were ripped apart in the first twilight then maybe when the body was fryed it looked like the face was fryed but i was actually ripped.

[crazysjd89]

Originally Posted by Golden Witch Drugs

Spoiler for Kinzo's death, Ep 1:

I just came up with this... In ep 1 where Kinzo is fryed in the kitchen, they recognize his corpse only by his 6 toes. And since Kinzo is already dead, that can't be his corpse. So maybe one of Kinzo's children had 6 toes in genres? Maybe it was Rudolf (Since it most likley was a man). And since the faces were ripped apart in the first twilight then maybe when the body was fryed it looked like the face was fryed but i was actually ripped.

Spoiler:

Just because someone is dead, doesn't mean their body can't be burnt, though.

The reason why Kinzo was burned in each episode is (assumedly) to hide the rigor mortis in his body, so people wouldn't know he's been dead for a long time (and probably to hide Livor Mortis and possibly Decomposition). That's why people theorized Kinzo was dead before each game, because his body kept being burnt.

[Marion]

Hello everyone! I've been watching this forum and other Umineko forums for a while, but I have finally registered in order to present my theory for Battler.

Spoiler for The Other and Real Battler:

(Note: When referring to the Battler that is the main character I will use Battler. When referencing to Asumu’s son Battler I will use BATTLER)

Okay so we know Battler is not Asumu’s child, due to the red text we received by Beato. We also know there was BATTLER, who WAS Asumu’s son. I think it went something like this:

While Rudolph and Asumu married they had a son. But what if around that same time Rudolph has having an affair with none other than Kyrie. According to character information they worked with each other in the same company and we know Rudolph to be a womanizer.

Rudolph and Kyrie named their child something, while Rudolph and Asumu named their son BATTLER. Because Rudolph and Asumu were married that makes BATTLER Kinzo’s legitimate grandson and Battler an illegitimate child from Kyrie. But what if BATTLER died soon after being born and Asumu was not made aware of this (maybe she was in the hospital or something). Rudolph doesn’t want to make his wife depressed so he might have asked Kyrie if they could take their and pretend it was Asumu’s son. Kyrie agreed and BATTLER, who is dead, was replaced with Kyrie’s son – Battler.

Rudolph and Kyrie maintain their affair, while Asumu and Battler believe that they are blood related. Asumu dies and Rudolph, perhaps wanting to repay Kyrie for her sacrifices, remarries to her. Battler, believing that Rudolph betrayed his ‘mother’ leaves for six years to live with Asumu’s family. This could be where Kyrie’s jealously stems from – the fact that Battler doesn’t even recognize her as his mother and that he was taken from her as a replacement for Asumu. This could also be considered Battler’s sin – replacing BATTLER and denying his birthmother.

Now to those that think this is unlikely, Beatrice never disproved this. Her red text only stated that Battler was not Asumu’s son. But her explanation afterwards was not in red text – which means it could easily be false. Remember what Bern, Lambda and Ange said: Beato’s talk about it was so that she could get away from the game she dubbed boring and completely mind screw Battler into defeat. We don’t know if anything she said about BATTLER is true, besides that because Battler is not Asumu’s son then that means there should be an original son, otherwise Battler wouldn’t believe he was Asumu’s son at the very most.

If Ange talked about this with Bern, at any time before Beato cornered him about it that means she doesn’t care if there was a BATTLER, because Battler is there. Ange was only 6 years old when Episode 3 or any episode for that matter occurred. That means she was born around the time when Asumu died.

I bet there's a bunch of things wrong with this, but I'm most going off of summaries of Episode Four since I don't actually have it yet >3>

[Klashikari]

The fact Kyrie got a miscarriage just ruins any theory involving a baby swap.

Also, considering episode 3, what actually happened is that Kyrie and Rudolf were going out, and Asumu barged in the fray and managed to take advantage of Rudolf's weakness to have a child with him.
The birth of original battler was the reason why rudolf had to get married with Asumu, they were not married before that.

[Saerianne]

Originally Posted by Marion

Hello everyone! I've been watching this forum and other Umineko forums for a while, but I have finally registered in order to present my theory for Battler.

Spoiler for The Other and Real Battler:

(Note: When referring to the Battler that is the main character I will use Battler. When referencing to Asumu’s son Battler I will use BATTLER)

Okay so we know Battler is not Asumu’s child, due to the red text we received by Beato. We also know there was BATTLER, who WAS Asumu’s son. I think it went something like this:

While Rudolph and Asumu married they had a son. But what if around that same time Rudolph has having an affair with none other than Kyrie. According to character information they worked with each other in the same company and we know Rudolph to be a womanizer.

Rudolph and Kyrie named their child something, while Rudolph and Asumu named their son BATTLER. Because Rudolph and Asumu were married that makes BATTLER Kinzo’s legitimate grandson and Battler an illegitimate child from Kyrie. But what if BATTLER died soon after being born and Asumu was not made aware of this (maybe she was in the hospital or something). Rudolph doesn’t want to make his wife depressed so he might have asked Kyrie if they could take their and pretend it was Asumu’s son. Kyrie agreed and BATTLER, who is dead, was replaced with Kyrie’s son – Battler.

Rudolph and Kyrie maintain their affair, while Asumu and Battler believe that they are blood related. Asumu dies and Rudolph, perhaps wanting to repay Kyrie for her sacrifices, remarries to her. Battler, believing that Rudolph betrayed his ‘mother’ leaves for six years to live with Asumu’s family. This could be where Kyrie’s jealously stems from – the fact that Battler doesn’t even recognize her as his mother and that he was taken from her as a replacement for Asumu. This could also be considered Battler’s sin – replacing BATTLER and denying his birthmother.

Now to those that think this is unlikely, Beatrice never disproved this. Her red text only stated that Battler was not Asumu’s son. But her explanation afterwards was not in red text – which means it could easily be false. Remember what Bern, Lambda and Ange said: Beato’s talk about it was so that she could get away from the game she dubbed boring and completely mind screw Battler into defeat. We don’t know if anything she said about BATTLER is true, besides that because Battler is not Asumu’s son then that means there should be an original son, otherwise Battler wouldn’t believe he was Asumu’s son at the very most.

If Ange talked about this with Bern, at any time before Beato cornered him about it that means she doesn’t care if there was a BATTLER, because Battler is there. Ange was only 6 years old when Episode 3 or any episode for that matter occurred. That means she was born around the time when Asumu died.

I bet there's a bunch of things wrong with this, but I'm most going off of summaries of Episode Four since I don't actually have it yet >3>

Welcome to the forums. ^^

Originally Posted by Klashikari

The fact Kyrie got a miscarriage just ruins any theory involving a baby swap.

Also, considering episode 3, what actually happened is that Kyrie and Rudolf were going out, and Asumu barged in the fray and managed to take advantage of Rudolf's weakness to have a child with him.
The birth of original battler was the reason why rudolf had to get married with Asumu, they were not married before that.

But I'd have to agree with this. Kyrie tells us the story when she battles Leviathan. She'd never want to give Asumu her baby on these circumstances.

[Sterling01]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

The fact Kyrie got a miscarriage just ruins any theory involving a baby swap.

It wasn't stated in red

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Sterling01

It wasn't stated in red

Since this information is not given by Beato herself, I don't think it will be required to be in red, especially it doesn't benefit her one bit in Episode 3 or 4.

Furthermore, it doesn't exactly make sense for Kyrie to think like this without specific truth, until she got cheated to a ridiculous level.
If it was stillbirth, I could understand, but it is impossible to deceive with miscarriage.

[Sterling01]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Furthermore, it doesn't exactly make sense for Kyrie to think like this without specific truth, until she got cheated to a ridiculous level.
If it was stillbirth, I could understand, but it is impossible to deceive with miscarriage.

We don't know if it was Kyrie who was the one thinking that

[k//eternal]

Who do you propose was thinking it instead?

[Sterling01]

Originally Posted by k//eternal

Who do you propose was thinking it instead?

......... don't know

[theacefrehley]

Originally Posted by k//eternal

Who do you propose was thinking it instead?

If we take the the magic scenes as Beatrice telling Battler about scenes he could not witness, perhaps the dialogs were also created by her.

By I don't see the point in faking information like this. I mean it in script-writer level.
Most probably Kyrie thinks/believes she had a miscarriage.

BUT;
(completely ignorant in biology speaking now)

Why can't Kyrie be deceived with a (fake) miscarriage?

I've read somewhere that miscarriage happens up to 24 weeks (6 months). Couldn't Kyrie have felt sick, taken to a hospital, passed out and woken up with the miscarriage 'bad news' = fake miscarriage+kidnapped baby?
6 months babies are very weak but are not impossible to survive.

[Rias]

Isn't this similar to the "recollection" of Natsuhi when he went to talk to Kinzo and got all that courage, in ep1? You have someone interact with some fantasy element, then does some inner thinking becuase of that.

Sure I agree that there's no point faking that kind of info, but perhaps there's a deeper meaning for that scene.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by theacefrehley

Why can't Kyrie be deceived with a (fake) miscarriage?

I've read somewhere that miscarriage happens up to 24 weeks (6 months). Couldn't Kyrie have felt sick, taken to a hospital, passed out and woken up with the miscarriage 'bad news' = fake miscarriage+kidnapped baby?
6 months babies are very weak but are not impossible to survive.

They aren't simply weak, the morbidity rate is drastically so high that preterm birth around 20 weeks are pretty much exposed to brain damage, infections etc.
Doing such stunt has a much larger risk of mortality (IIRC, preterm babies have only 50% chance of survival around 24 weeks), and the lucky survivors are absolutely not spared of numerous health issues.
Basically, one must be insane doing that: it would go against the purpose of kidnapping the baby. A regular kidnapping and a fake corpse would be much more "realistic" than this.
Rather, it is like an assassination attempt with a cover (which could be done with teratogen drugs).

Honestly, it doesn't make sense at all for such kind of stunt.

Originally Posted by Rias

Isn't this similar to the "recollection" of Natsuhi when he went to talk to Kinzo and got all that courage, in ep1? You have someone interact with some fantasy element, then does some inner thinking becuase of that.

Sure I agree that there's no point faking that kind of info, but perhaps there's a deeper meaning for that scene.

Since Kinzo was shown always from behind during that scene, there is absolutely no reason to doubt Natsuhi met "him", though there is no red text that stated "Natsuhi acknowledged Kinzo's existence for episode 1".
As such, we cannot remove the possibility that this really happened (especially considering Natsuhi self righteousness). There is a leeway that she could have been deceived here.

Furthermore, I question the existence of the "witch side" for Episode 1, if we consider the timeline of the events with the meta world (until it is like onikakushi, with some chessboards beforehand, but Tea Party 1 implies otherwise).

[Bern-chan]

Originally Posted by theacefrehley

Why can't Kyrie be deceived with a (fake) miscarriage?

I've read somewhere that miscarriage happens up to 24 weeks (6 months). Couldn't Kyrie have felt sick, taken to a hospital, passed out and woken up with the miscarriage 'bad news' = fake miscarriage+kidnapped baby?
6 months babies are very weak but are not impossible to survive.

Even if that happened, why would they kidnap a foetus? Who would have done it? Kinzo doesn't seem to leave Rokkenjima at all, and there's no hospital on the island. Maybe Nanjo could have been working in the hospital Kyrie went to or something. But I don't really see why anyone would want to kidnap her unborn son.

[crazysjd89]

Originally Posted by theacefrehley

Why can't Kyrie be deceived with a (fake) miscarriage?

I've read somewhere that miscarriage happens up to 24 weeks (6 months). Couldn't Kyrie have felt sick, taken to a hospital, passed out and woken up with the miscarriage 'bad news' = fake miscarriage+kidnapped baby?
6 months babies are very weak but are not impossible to survive.

Even assuming he survives through everything that Klash mentioned, he probably wouldn't be tall.

I think it would be nice if Battler was Kyrie's son, but I'm with Klash in that I don't see a real logical way for it to happen, though that doesn't necessarily mean their isn't one.

[k//eternal]

The only way I see it happening is if she doesn't mean "miscarriage" literally, but I have no idea why that would be the case. If she actually had a miscarriage, or there was a fetus kidnapping (what the hell?) there is basically no way the child would survive.

Unless you think the "homunculi" mentioned in the story are kidnapped and reimplanted fetuses and there was some kind of super-advanced technology for the time making it possible, that's pretty much a dead end. And if the end solution is that completely ridiculous, I'd rather buy into the "magic" explanation.