[Manga] Chapter 508 Discussion

[Ashaman]

Originally Posted by El_Frenchie

Hm. As with any Akatsuki, once you lose your robe, you die. But what's underneath will be sexy, I can guarantee.

It is. I've seen official concept pictures. They were around awhile ago, though I can't remember where to find them now.

@Cub-sama - What did Hidan, Kakuzu and Deidara die doing that was so worth it?

The first two are killed while they were wandering around (admittedly one resolved a character arc and the other gave us a taste of Rasenshuriken) and the latter died in a failed suicide bombing. Real worth it.

Kisame killed himself to prevent valuable info being taken away from him. A meaningful death.

Using Kisame, Madara planted a (potentially) long-term spy right nxt to a target, allowing for constant updates.

Zetsu may not be able to do that. Or, he could be somewhere else, spying on someone. Two spies are better than one.

[Kafriel]

^ Zetsu IS two spies xD Also Deidara killed Manda, legendary kill.

[Cub-Sama]

Originally Posted by Ashaman

It is. I've seen official concept pictures. They were around awhile ago, though I can't remember where to find them now.

@Cub-sama - What did Hidan, Kakuzu and Deidara die doing that was so worth it?

The first two are killed while they were wandering around (admittedly one resolved a character arc and the other gave us a taste of Rasenshuriken) and the latter died in a failed suicide bombing. Real worth it.

Kisame killed himself to prevent valuable info being taken away from him. A meaningful death.

Deidara and Sasori captured gaara and took the ichibi and ended up killing Chiyo accidently, Sasori also gave way to hinting where Sasuke was and continuing the story.

Hidan and Kakuzu killed Asuma, captured Niibi, killed the guy from the temple and gave us a taste of rasenshuriken and paved the way for some character development.

Itachi scarred a major character and has been one of the biggest movers of the plot since the beginning as well giving Naruto some mysterious power.

Nagato killed Jiraiya and Kakashi which pushed in some plot development for the both of them, set Naruto on his new path and more stuff I can't be bothered to write right now.

Now Kisame's captured Yonbi by himself (good start) then he apparently died against Bee and the Raikage felt a bit wtf and short but IMO it was an okay fight, then it turns out he is actually alive and infiltrated Kumo (good). Then it goes downhill, his death didn't make for any character development, was short and IMO felt rushed, while the information could be very important it would've saved some trouble if you just got zetsu to do it.

[Kafriel]

his death didn't make for any character development

I beg to differ, his death was the unraveling of Kisame as an actual character and as more than just Madara's pawn. Without that flashback, he would have been just a mist swordsman that worked for Akatsuki;we never got to know anything more about him or his relationship with Itachi, Madara and his fellow ninja.

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by Kafriel

. Without that flashback, he would have been just a mist swordsman that worked for Akatsuki.

meh... this is actually one of the problems i have for both kishi and kubo... the fact that these flashbacks only come JUST BEFORE the character dies... the benefit of the flashbacks is that they can add an extra layer of depth to a character, but the whole point of giving them depth is almost lost if you kill them right away afterword. Depth can attach us more to a character and make the audience desire to see them in action a whole lot more...

[Kafriel]

True, but as James has repeatedly stated, Kisame has outlived his purpose as an Akatsuki member, so he had to die sometime soon....but killing a nobody would be a waste of many chapters in hindsight, so making his life meaningful also makes his death meaningful. It's poor writing that could have been handled better, but side characters are the toughest to find time to develop, and it could have been worse.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by Slayerx

meh... this is actually one of the problems i have for both kishi and kubo... the fact that these flashbacks only come JUST BEFORE the character dies... the benefit of the flashbacks is that they can add an extra layer of depth to a character, but the whole point of giving them depth is almost lost if you kill them right away afterword. Depth can attach us more to a character and make the audience desire to see them in action a whole lot more...

Well there's been a great deal of flashbacks in Naruto and Bleach not associated with death at all. And Oda just recently killed off two major characters (a first for OP) one of whom didn't have any flashbacks for the entire series until right before his death and the other did not have any flashbacks at all until after he was dead.

A character doesn't have to be alive to receive character development. Finding out aspects of a character just before or even after they've died is a totally legitimate way of storytelling. For villains, flashbacks often occur near death because that's when the readers' sympathy is at its peak. They are otherwise supposed to be totally unlikable.

At least Kisame got a flashback though. Kakuzu and Hidan only got their histories mentioned in the databook ....

[kitten320]

Originally Posted by Shiryuu

Only villains dies in Bleach. So not out of nowhere.

Yes they do die out of nowhere. Villian was pwning good guy's ass and then suddenly died from flesh wound while goodie is smiling happily while being cut in half.

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

A character doesn't have to be alive to receive character development. Finding out aspects of a character just before or even after they've died is a totally legitimate way of storytelling. For villains, flashbacks often occur near death because that's when the readers' sympathy is at its peak. They are otherwise supposed to be totally unlikable.

the readers would sympathize with the villains A LOT more if they saw those flashbacks WAY sooner. they add depth to their characters and thus do a great deal more work in attracting our attention to those characters and making those characters seem more endearing... you can build up and develop the characters that way so that we are at a true height when they finally die... frankly, i didn't care all that much about many of the villains of these series and the flashbacks near death did not help much since by then it was much too late

and i got a few criticisms about Oda as well in this regard, which i will not go into detail here due to being spoilerific

[DeDe]

Aoba was right a few chapters ago. Why is every strong guy on that island so stupid? Did it not occur to anyone there that the scroll might be booby trapped? We saw trapped scrolls all the way back in the Forest of Death. They could have easily sent it back to Kumo or Konoha for analysis. Opening it there was just...really stupid. I know Gai, Naruto, Kirabi, and Aoba aren't geniuses, but I would have though more of Yamato. Oh well, Kishi wanted that info to reach Madara. And at least Kishi showed the drawback to Gai opening the gates.

Anyway. I believe Kishi wants us to feel some sympathy for all the Akatsuki, with the exception of Hidan, who was pretty much the only total evil scumbag out of the group. Even Kakuzu's backstory was that of a scorned shinobi.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by DeDe

Aoba was right a few chapters ago. Why is every strong guy on that island so stupid?

Ironically it was Aoba's idea to open up the scroll. Atleast they're sharing the Idiot Ball around.

[Spectacular_Insanity]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Well there's been a great deal of flashbacks in Naruto and Bleach not associated with death at all. And Oda just recently killed off two major characters (a first for OP) one of whom didn't have any flashbacks for the entire series until right before his death and the other did not have any flashbacks at all until after he was dead.

A character doesn't have to be alive to receive character development. Finding out aspects of a character just before or even after they've died is a totally legitimate way of storytelling. For villains, flashbacks often occur near death because that's when the readers' sympathy is at its peak. They are otherwise supposed to be totally unlikable.

At least Kisame got a flashback though. Kakuzu and Hidan only got their histories mentioned in the databook ....

I agree. After all, most of Itachi's character development was AFTER his death, when Madara told his story.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

A character doesn't have to be alive to receive character development. Finding out aspects of a character just before or even after they've died is a totally legitimate way of storytelling. For villains, flashbacks often occur near death because that's when the readers' sympathy is at its peak. They are otherwise supposed to be totally unlikable..

This is very true in most cases but it can be far too overused.

Naruto is nowhere near as bad as Bleach, though. In Bleach flashbacks seem to be the only way Kubo can give any depth to his characters. It seems as if he just can't be arsed.

[kk2extreme]

Now Kabuto has another zombie to control

[Ashaman]

Originally Posted by kk2extreme

Now Kabuto has another zombie to control

Excellent point

[secretzfan]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Well there's been a great deal of flashbacks in Naruto and Bleach not associated with death at all. And Oda just recently killed off two major characters (a first for OP) one of whom didn't have any flashbacks for the entire series until right before his death and the other did not have any flashbacks at all until after he was dead.

A character doesn't have to be alive to receive character development. Finding out aspects of a character just before or even after they've died is a totally legitimate way of storytelling. For villains, flashbacks often occur near death because that's when the readers' sympathy is at its peak. They are otherwise supposed to be totally unlikable.

At least Kisame got a flashback though. Kakuzu and Hidan only got their histories mentioned in the databook ....

I don't think this has been overused. In fact this is excellent way to give out a person's life history. It especially works for villains. It isn't bad when Bleach does it and it is excellent when One Piece does, but Oda doesn't a lot which is fine. (Oda hardly ever does flashbacks before death because hardly anyone dies on OP)There are in fact many ways to do a flashback, but I find they are best for Villains when it is there moment of death.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

A character doesn't have to be alive to receive character development. Finding out aspects of a character just before or even after they've died is a totally legitimate way of storytelling. For villains, flashbacks often occur near death because that's when the readers' sympathy is at its peak. They are otherwise supposed to be totally unlikable.

At least Kisame got a flashback though. Kakuzu and Hidan only got their histories mentioned in the databook ....

And even those two were supposed to have flachbacks (and more jutsu apparently) fleeshing out their background but Kishimoto didn't manage to find the time to do so in the timeframe of their arc so it was canned and we only got to know about it in the 3rd Databook.
It's just the way the author like to present his vilains, admitedly it's a bit repetitive but that's how he wants it : presenting them initially as completely evil sociopaths before showing that once upon a time they used to be regular people, before the ninja system they live in twisted them, often quite literally, into monsters.
All the antagonists of this show, no matter how insane and vil, used to be regular ninja before the world transformed them into the living and flawed incarnations of the afflictions which plague their world.

[Ulquiorra]

Originally Posted by Hunter

All the antagonists of this show, no matter how insane and vil, used to be regular ninja before the world transformed them into the living and flawed incarnations of the afflictions which plague their world.

The one that breaks this trend is Hidan who was a bastard from the get go. The ninja world did not change him. He actually scorned his village for being peaceful and serene. He sought conflict and attracted the Jashin cult through his violent actions. He probably would have been the only Akatsuki not given a flashback since he was truly evil and served no other purpose than to develop Shikamaru.

Deidara also didn't seem a product of his environment. Deidara was admired as a genius by Iwa. They still speak of him with respect. But he seemed to be mad from the beginning. Only caring about seeking greater aspirations for his "art". So he stole a forbidden ninjutsu(chakra infusion)and fled Iwa, turning into a terrorist.

Some people are just bad eggs.

[Kyero Fox]

Originally Posted by Spectacular_Insanity

I agree. After all, most of Itachi's character development was AFTER his death, when Madara told his Maybe false story.

fixed that for ya.

[Spectacular_Insanity]

Originally Posted by kk2extreme

Now Kabuto has another zombie to control

Speaking of Kabuto, when's he gonna his next appearance? I want the excrement to hit the fan.... that's always amusing.