[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 6 Dawn of the golden witch

[Used Can]

Originally Posted by AmyElizzabeth

Alsooooo, when(and if) he denies witches (hey buddy I think you've strayed away from your goal a bit) will they, like, die? Or return to their human form?

Battler and Beatrice said in this episode that, once the whole thing is over, the game-board would disappear. However, in addition to that, Battler said that since he completely understands magic now, he'd take Beatrice out of the game-board.

Take that as you will.

[Koi]

Aah... good end...
please, let it that way

[blitz1/2]

Originally Posted by ~Ayane~

am...um...why would he deny them now when he married one?




....lol


also whats so wrong with Beato turning human and transferring to Battlers school? Hanyuu did that too, OLO

nahh. Beato seems to be the one who would transfer as Battler's homeroom teacher or school nurse.

[ArcticHelm]

Taking Beato out of the board like that seems like the most obvious end, but there seems to be a lot of witches with hands in the pot so to speak... I can almost see Bern and Lambda trying to get back at Featherine as it is at least somewhat hinted that she was a cause of their misfortune from what I can understand. However I think that even if Bern holds a lot against Battler/Beato, Lambda did rant on about the hell she and Bern climbed out of - apparently much worse than this. This could be implied by the certainty of a miracle/orchestrated miracle line that gets noted several times in the series. Although I'm not really sure what this would be.

[Used Can]

Originally Posted by blitz1/2

nahh. Beato seems to be the one who would transfer as Battler's homeroom teacher or school nurse.

THIS

Originally Posted by ArcticHelm

Taking Beato out of the board like that seems like the most obvious end

Not particularly so, considering Beatrice was created by some girl. We don't know how many similarities that girl and Beatrice may share, if they even have any. That, and there's the "Including Erika, there's 17 people in the island." So, unless there's something I haven't noticed, Beatrice has got to be one of the people we've already seen in the island.

[Koi]

that would be like... bad...
but if Beato turns out to be a old lady on her mid 50ies, that would be worse

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Used Can

THIS
Not particularly so, considering Beatrice was created by some girl. We don't know how many similarities that girl and Beatrice may share, if they even have any. That, and there's the "Including Erika, there's 17 people in the island." So, unless there's something I haven't noticed, Beatrice has got to be one of the people we've already seen in the island.

Well let's analyze the various possibilities... we have quite a lot of good hints in EP6.

First it's crystal-clear that Beatrice holds feelings of love for Battler and that feelings existed since 6 years before. We see a very interesting flashback of that time where this person asks Battler who is his ideal woman (which turns out to be exactly like Beatrice).

You can exclude Jessica right away. That is because Battler in that flashback says that his ideal girl should be like Jessica. Battler never uses names when talking to people, he uses "omae", so he's not talking to Jessica.

Let's exclude guys because there's no way Ryukishi is going to turn umineko into a shonen ai. Let's exclude Maria because she was only 3 years old. let's exclude all the milfs because it would be kinda sick and I'm not even sure that Kyrie was there in 1980 and certainly she wasn't there before.

You are only left with Kumasawa and Shannon...

is there even to think about that?

[Koi]

there are lots of servants that come and go. Maybe Battler was talking to one of them?

[ArcticHelm]

I think it also depends on what you mean by 'taking out of the board' as when looking at both Maria and Ange, you're able to notice they both see 'entities' that are not commensurable with the vessel or what not. Thus Maria 'sees' Beatrice as a different person who was along with another person or 'familiar' who did Beatrice's bidding in handing over the umbrella, etc. There is an acknowledgment of something distinct and separate which may or may not be denied. I personally cannot see Battler denying Beato at this point, although whether others are successful in doing so is entirely up in the air - even if this means that Beato is merely a 'delusion' on the part of Battler's post-game self. While it might not help from a mystery aspect, I don't think it'd be right to solely consider Umineko a mystery, even if it is a large aspect of it.

[Jan-Poo]

While Beatrice might not really be the culprit, I think it would be lame if she wasn't among the 16 persons that were in the island.

[Koi]

why do I have this feeling that Beato is Maria's image of good witch...
in other words... Nice side of Rosa

[ArcticHelm]

Well, this is more or less just considering the separate entity of "Beatrice" that formed over the many decades and events on Rokkenjima. Thus while this Beatrice contains the 6-year broken promise Piece-Beatrice, and Piece-Beatrice partially contains "Beatrice" as an alter-ego (what they know of the witch legend and their own personality) they are not necessarily completely identical. This could be referenced back to Moe-Island Beato: While Meta-Beatrice identifies that person as being her (in a sense of a body that Kinzo tried to contain the essence of Beatrice within), Moe-Beato only knew all of what she was as "Beatrice" after she died and was freed from the vessel. Thus while Meta-Beato definitely contains the parts: Beatrice who lent Kinzo the gold, Moe-Beato, witch-legend-Beato, Piece-Beato and is them, Piece-Beato is Beatrice, but only partially so.

[Midnight Bliss]

It's little to none likely, but if Umineko has one of those retarded IT WAS ALL A DREAM endings i am going to stab myself and Ryukishi, but it's most unlikely. I have a feeling it might end up like Higurashi

Spoiler for higurashi ending:

like the culprit being just sad in the end when caught, and then probably Battler or Bernkastel or who knows will take an action before the game starts to prevent the incidents from hapenning.

Or, a bittersweet ending between Battler and Beatrice.

and I agree with Jan-poo, it's most likely Shannon. :l I doubt it's Jessica, imo.

[MeoTwister5]

Well Battler looks like you got trolled again. Summaries ahoy.

Major Trolls and Major Retcon.

Spoiler for Ep6 Summaries:

MetaWorld
- Beato1 and Battler talk about the witch's side and how powerful it can be. Battler talks about how he used to play it with the first Beato over and over. Beato1 asks about the last game they played. She wants to know what was happening.
- Battler doesn't want to talk about it. Something about a miracle. Some discussion that's hard to translate.
- Beato1 apologizes for asking such a request. She feels some sadness because she sses sadness in Battler.
- Beato1 asks about his confidence in winning this game. He says he's confident. If he wins then this eternal cycle will be over. Beato1 is worried of what will become of her once the games end. Battler says that because he understands the magic of the games now, Beato1 should be able to leave the board. This would be her miracle (?).
- The two of them laugh at Battler's previous blunders, such as bombs. Battler decides to take his leave.
- A lone butterfly arrives and becomes Beato2. Beato1 says she wants to get to know her more, parts of herself. Beato2 wants to know about Beato1 too, and expects something great when the trials of the game are over.
- They talk about what would happen between the other couples, since someone has to lose for one couple to get what they want. Beato1 finds it messed up that they all can't get the love they want. Beato2 has faith in Beato1. Beato1 wants to do her very best to gain the miracle of magic.

- Bern says the first blue-red duel begins. Erika says Battler seems enthusiastic. Erika restates the information about the rooms Battler provided. The three basic facts about the rooms are stated as: that the victims themselves locked the themselves inside rooms, that there was no one inside besides the victim and that Krauss who opened them later is not a criminal.
- Erika admits she had the possibility of mistaking the autopsy of the victims due to her not having detective authority. She suggests that she can have theories as such, like medicines, and even suggests insulin. She says that since Battler does not rebut with red, her blue truth is acceptable. A bunch of narrator text on the limitations of the human side.
- Bern says it's kinda stupid for Battler not to rebut, and Erika says she cannot be definitive in her assertions due to lack of detective authority. Lambda asks how she could win without it, and Erika says it's a minor inconvenience. There is a comparison to how witch's are either absolutely 0 or 100, while humans cannot reach 100 and can vary in between.
- Example would be the autopsy. With the authority she could have completely proven or disproven a manner of death, 0 or 100. Without it, as a regular human, she cannot be 100% sure of the manners of death. A probability of less than 100% always exists.
- However, Bern's power can make some things assured as long as there's a 1% chance, and Dlanor's assistance evens up the odds. Dlanor's use of blue and red of course is limited with the loss of detective authority. Erika is feeling the strainn
- Bern says that when Battler realized the truth of the games, the games had already ended and him being GM is but a commemoration of this. (huh?)
- Lambda asks if this is what Bern wanted, since their game here apparently will not continue into infinity. Bern's original intent was to expose Beato. Bern says she's still the same person who tried to assist Battler, empowered Ange and managed to help get Battler back into fighting mode.
- Wall of text from Bern, who clearly isn't happy with all of this because she wanted a nice fight. Lambda makes fun of Bern who blames it on her piece (Erika) for screwing up the fifth game. Erika is of course apologetic.
- Bern chastizes Erika for failing to win despite detective authority, now considering she has none. Lambda wonders how Erika can even win now. Bern says this is a suitable punishment for Erika. Erika is pretty much crying.
- Battler arrives. They start talking about the rooms, which he says he never liked Beato's original sealed rooms. They ask hiw how he's enjoying the events to which he says he's only doing them to prove the witch's side against the human side. He reminds her of how he managed to stop Erika the last time, which again pisses off Bern.
- Battler says that Erika and Dlanor's attempts were commendable in the previous fight. They talk about Dlanor's inability to use the red sword (I assume it's related to Erika not having authority).
- Battler seems to suggest that it was Bern who took out Erika's detective authority (punishment). He says this is his and Erika's match and doesn't want Bern pulling strings. He says she should stay as a simple audience member and watch. Bern says she wants amusement, and paid high to be part of the games.
- Battler says he can just banish her from this if she meddles. She says he can't do that because Erika is her piece and she'd go too. Battler and Bern get into a heated argument. Erika again begs for a chance to fight him. Lambda tells Bern to stop acting like a kid and calm the eff down. Bern turns her ire to Lambda.
- Lambda starts teasing everyone. Battler again says he wants no one to interfere. He seems to have a different opinion of Lambda than Bern and says it. I didn't translate it right, but apparently Lambda gets serious and tries to convince Battler to let Erika use the detective authority because she wants a good balanced game.
- Battler asks Erika if she thinks it would be impossible to play properly without it, which of course she won't admit the truth. Dlanor says she can't wield the red if Erika has no authority. He asks if there's a way to get Dlanor to use red without Erika's authority.
- Erika complains. Dlanor explains that her red is also based on the truth, in this case based on Erika, and uses the tapes of the Ep5 game as example. Because such things are considered as true for Erika's human side, Dlanor can use them for her red truth. Apparently this is the reason he made sure she can't use tapes for this game.
- Battler remembers how he also got into similar situations in the past with Beato. He tells Erika that she can't, but however asks Dlanor and her assistants to help Erika as much as they can. Battler says her power comes from her helpers, which of course pisses her off.
- However Battler seems to allow her the tape to seal a maximum number of rooms (3 rooms)? Whatever the translation is, Erika is given a chance to seal rooms.
- Erika doesn't like it one bit. Dlanor confirms they will get the tape from Kumasawa. Battler allows a rewrite for Erika to seal 3 rooms.
- Battler retcons the story so as to let Erika seal 3 rooms before the first twilight. He however says they can only seal rooms people are involved in.
- Bern comments on how Battler lets all this get into his head. He tells Bern to STFU. He's says he's serious and wants a proper game.
- As he leaves he tells Erika to talk with Dlanor about the details. She thanks him and says she will do this with her best. She wants him to be serious too. He says yes, because this will be the final game.
- Erika is all blubbery and thankful as Battler leaves.
- When Battler leaves, super troll faces. So apparently it was all a scheme to trick Battler into letting them have the sealing tape. Yes Battler got trolled again, at least in their minds. All three were in on it.
- The 3 have a plan for Battler. They have a plan to break his sealed rooms.
- Dlanor apparently doesn't like being party to this trickery. She however admits that this was a big fatal mistake on Battler's part. Erika will go seal dorrs now.

[ijriims]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Well let's analyze the various possibilities... we have quite a lot of good hints in EP6.

First it's crystal-clear that Beatrice holds feelings of love for Battler and that feelings existed since 6 years before. We see a very interesting flashback of that time where this person asks Battler who is his ideal woman (which turns out to be exactly like Beatrice).

You can exclude Jessica right away. That is because Battler in that flashback says that his ideal girl should be like Jessica. Battler never uses names when talking to people, he uses "omae", so he's not talking to Jessica.

Unfortunately, it was not crystal-clear to me that this scene was from 1980 rather than 1986 Rokkenjima.

6 years ago, Battler was still having his liking of Shannon, how come if someone asked what kind of woman he like he would not say Shannon right away?

To me, that scene was asked by real Beatrice on Rokkenjima in 1986 to Battler.

Then, since the real Beatrice embodied a large part of meta-Beatrice, she told the newly born moeBeatrice to love Battler since she herself was unable to love him.

The "mother" of moeBeatrice was of course original meta-Beatrice. However, the whole moeBeatrice, trollBeatrice, meta-Beatrice and Battler was actually an analogy to the relationship between 1967 Beatrice, legend-Beatrice, 1952 Beatrice and Kinzo if you read between the lines.

If you replace Battler with Kinzo, moeBeatrice with 1967 Beatrice, meta-Beatrice with 1952 Beatrice. Then everything makes sense and it gave you the backstory of Kinzo and Beatrice.

[Used Can]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

You are only left with Kumasawa and Shannon...

That's true, but has Shannon ever shown any interest in Battler? I think even Jessica and Maria have shown more interest in him than her.

Not to mention R07 said he hasn't included settings like George and Shannon not loving each other. So, unless she's a slut who plans on dumping George if Battler remembers his sin, I really don't see how Shannon can be Beatrice, since Beato loves Battler.

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

Spoiler for Ep6 Summaries:

MetaWorld
- Beato1 and Battler talk about the witch's side and how powerful it can be. Battler talks about how he used to play it with the first Beato over and over. Beato1 asks about the last game they played. She wants to know what was happening.
- Battler doesn't want to talk about it. Something about a miracle. Some discussion that's hard to translate.

Allow me to expand on this part, I've already mentioned it before, anyway:

Spoiler for Meta-World Scene:

- Beato1 asked Battler what kind of answer he reached at the end of the game with the previous Beatrice, which Battler's finds to be quite ironic, since that's the exact question wanted Beatrice to answer him back then. However, now their positions are reversed. Battler knows the answer, whereas Beatrice has forgot about it.
- Battler told Beato1 he didn't want to answer, because he wanted to hope for a miracle.

[yuugi99]

Originally Posted by Midnight Bliss

It's little to none likely, but if Umineko has one of those retarded IT WAS ALL A DREAM endings i am going to stab myself and Ryukishi, but it's most unlikely. I have a feeling it might end up like Higurashi

Spoiler for higurashi ending:

like the culprit being just sad in the end when caught, and then probably Battler or Bernkastel or who knows will take an action before the game starts to prevent the incidents from hapenning.

Or, a bittersweet ending between Battler and Beatrice.

and I agree with Jan-poo, it's most likely Shannon. :l I doubt it's Jessica, imo.

No!!! then how about George????? I really really hope Shannon is not human Beato. They are just not alike.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by yuugi99

No!!! then how about George????? I really really hope Shannon is not human Beato. They are just not alike.

There is no human Beato EP 6 confirms that Beatrice is an imaginary being, which was created by the girl who was in love with Battler (the one Battler talked to about his type) and then abandoned. Beatrice is a vessel for that girl's feelings for Battler, which is why Beatrice states in the game that her purpose for being created was to love Battler.

If Shannon is the girl who loved Battler there is a very good chance she is already over it in some way.

[Tsuki Aoi Usagi]

Originally Posted by Marion

There is no human Beato EP 6 confirms that Beatrice is an imaginary being, which was created by the girl who was in love with Battler (the one Battler talked to about his type) and then abandoned. Beatrice is a vessel for that girl's feelings for Battler, which is why Beatrice states in the game that her purpose for being created was to love Battler.

If Shannon is the girl who loved Battler there is a very good chance she is already over it in some way.

But..."Shannon" loves George now. What is the point of her killing off everyone if she is already happy?

My money is bet on that Maria might be the girl. I don't know exactly how old Maria is...but she has to be at least 10-12 right now. And the sin occured 6 years ago, right? That'd make her about 4-6. She could've easily gain a big crush on Battler, Battler could've made the promise to her, and she could've been heart broken/scarred/deeply hurt. If you add that and the abuse she went through by Rosa...I'd say it gives her some good deal of motive and reason for revenge. Possibly gaining a bipolar or multiple personality disorder in the process.

Think about it though. She isn't that different considering she has her moe and troll moments, just like Maria. Plus, Beato was cruel at first, kind of like Maria is sometimes.

But I'm probably way off. xD;

Edit: Apparahently Maria is nine years old...thus making her three/four when the battler's sin occured. But I still think it's plausible.

[musouka]

Originally Posted by Tsuki Aoi Usagi

My money is bet on that Maria might be the girl. I don't know exactly how old Maria is...but she has to be at least 10-12 right now.

Maria is nine, and it's been stated more than once that she has no memory of meeting Battler when she was three.

Personally, I think people are asking the wrong question about Beato in regards to EP6, as always. One of the most interesting lines regarding her was Ange's musing about why Beato was created. Namely that creating someone to "love" for you is like creating someone to eat for you. Loving and eating are things that can only be done uniquely by the person in question.

I think this EP is once again people having stopped thinking because they think the answer has been given...