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Old 2006-04-22, 08:15   Link #41
DeathWolf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by complich8
I think most of the rizon groups ended up on rizon because it was already large, had extensive services, and seemed capable of withstanding reasonable amounts of ddos.

if I remember correctly, the same ddos-force that brought down mircx managed to bring down two of the numerous rizon servers, causing minor splits, but the network stayed up and the rizon admins got a good laugh out of it).

As bandwidth goes, the aniverse->mircx switch was prompted by a week long ddos of something like 1.8-2.5 gbps. I don't think I ever got a number from cjb, but I'm fairly sure that taking down down mircx would have also been at least 2 gigabit. Amazing what botnets can do, y'know?
Yep, that's exactly what happened. We were trying to find a network able to host "the big 3"(aone, akeep, anbu) back then, knowing that many groups would follow us.
Rizon was originally far from being the wanted choice, being known for its warez activities.
But after trying 3 networks that died of ddos shortly after going there(all of that in 12 hours) rizon was the only choice left that could wistand the ddos.(and the large number of servs helped)
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Old 2006-04-22, 13:15   Link #42
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Remember how the exodus from Mircx lead to the death of the Rizen server?
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Old 2006-04-22, 14:19   Link #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bayoab
Also DVD rippers. I believe they have never produced a proper fansub considering envirosphere does not have a record of them.
I still have their full rip of Initial D 2nd stage. AFAIK they were the only group that has acceptable encoding of ID stage 2.

I think they also did Vandread Stage 2. I may have that.

They are all DVD rips; They were a bitch to track down and download from irc (even back in the days).
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Old 2006-04-22, 18:38   Link #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Starks
Remember how the exodus from Mircx lead to the death of the Rizen server?
Yeah, that was one of the ones that insisted they could handle us...

I don't think it even took the ddossers for that one!

I remember registering aone and the staff rooms on a bunch of different networks as a precaution ... that was fun and exciting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathWolf
Rizon was originally far from being the wanted choice, being known for its warez activities.
But after trying 3 networks that died of ddos shortly after going there(all of that in 12 hours) rizon was the only choice left that could wistand the ddos.(and the large number of servs helped)
I remember being opposed to rizon for exactly those reasons. I think none of us liked the choice at the time... personally I was trying to re-impose some distance between the anime community and the warez scene that I felt had been eroding away.

So we all went to rizon, and I remember looking for other networks for like ... 2 months, calling rizon our temporary home. And every network admin I talked to was like "yeah, we can take that, no problem, we've got 2 servers!" Eventually I just gave up and settled there... I think I was probably one of the last to put down that "looking for a big warez-free licensed-friendly network with full channel services" torch.

Ahh ... the idealistic naïveté of my younger days .

In fairness, some of those networks didn't need the help of the ddosers to go down...
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Old 2006-04-22, 18:59   Link #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by complich8
Yeah, that was one of the ones that insisted they could handle us...

I don't think it even took the ddossers for that one!

I remember registering aone and the staff rooms on a bunch of different networks as a precaution ... that was fun and exciting.



I remember being opposed to rizon for exactly those reasons. I think none of us liked the choice at the time... personally I was trying to re-impose some distance between the anime community and the warez scene that I felt had been eroding away.

So we all went to rizon, and I remember looking for other networks for like ... 2 months, calling rizon our temporary home. And every network admin I talked to was like "yeah, we can take that, no problem, we've got 2 servers!" Eventually I just gave up and settled there... I think I was probably one of the last to put down that "looking for a big warez-free licensed-friendly network with full channel services" torch.

Ahh ... the idealistic naïveté of my younger days .

In fairness, some of those networks didn't need the help of the ddosers to go down...
I was in #Fansubbers on that cold night back in April 2004. I snuck in and did "leecher" reporting for the rest of the community as the leaders of the groups discussed the future of fansubbing in a conclave-esque fashion.

I haven't been in that channel ever since and would give almost anything to get back in there.
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Old 2006-04-22, 21:11   Link #46
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ETG > *

-Tofu
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Old 2006-04-22, 21:18   Link #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by complich8
I think I was probably one of the last to put down that "looking for a big warez-free licensed-friendly network with full channel services" torch.

Ahh ... the idealistic naïveté of my younger days .

In fairness, some of those networks didn't need the help of the ddosers to go down...
Let us remember that the only warez-free networks that will allow anime groups on and can support ~3000 new users are.... are.... hey wait, there are none.
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Old 2006-04-22, 22:44   Link #48
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I like the quote on this thread.

"with the advent of the digital
fansub, where the translated episode is available days after airing,
there's really no reason for me _not_ to watch it."
(9/30/2000)

Another thread:
"Most of the encoded files floating
around the internet are based on those. Some of them are out less than a
week after the show is on TV!"
(9/29/2000)

Here is a really good page, with a database of fansubs and who released them.

Look particularly at the fansubs from 2000 and you'll get an idea of who was around back then.

Ayashi no Ceres: AnimeINC, AnimeDIVX, ABCBanime, Anime_Daisuki, Digital-fansubtitling Club (2000)
Candidate for Goddess: animefactory (2000)
Hand Maid May: Anime-Fansubs, High Quality Anime, Anime Help, Psychlo-Anime, Anime Coalition (2000)
Love Hina: Anime Fansubs, Anime-Heaven, Anime-Factory, OnAD, Nekomi Kodai Fansubs, HA (2000)

Of course, some of these were subbed into 2001, but gives you an idea of some of the older groups.

We really haven't progressed very far. People are still subbing shows a week or less after they air and the popular titles are still oversubbed.

Though there are really very few records of the digisubbing distribution going on back then... Even my memories are a bit fuzzy and I was there 3rd or 4th quarter 2000. People were downloading VHS captures since at least 1999, and Virtualdub/Divx/Subtitler were all available since 1999~2000... Surely there must be one of the pioneers among us... (I'm talking someone who was digisubbing in early-mid 2000 at least).

I'd love to hear more on this topic because that's where my memory runs out. ^^;

-Tofu

EDIT:

Also found this which has a post talking about a sub of FLCL by:

Translated by: LarryKun
Timed by: LarryKun, FireZs

Edited by: MDZ2, Oteck, FireZs
Aligned by: Oteck, FireZs

#Anime-Fansubs@Efnet
(post dated 8/16/2000)

There seems to be a discrepancy with the A-F website because this has them releasing it in 2001. Though it says they started Love Hina in June 2000...

I'd really like to hear about the scene before Love Hina started, and how those projects worked. I wouldn't be surprised if it had a lot to do with the korean fansub scene. I know some of the most influential groups at the start worked with Koreans who had access to HQ raws off of huge web servers and timed scripts (in korean) mere hours after it aired. This was the "dirty little secret" of the early digisubbing days, that many groups translated from korean scripts.

Last edited by Tofusensei; 2006-04-22 at 23:19.
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Old 2006-04-22, 23:28   Link #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thelastguardian
I remember that Divx4 was released in mid 2001 and many fansubbers were not happy about that. Something about Divx3.11 is superior compared to Divx4 for some perverse reasons :^). Some insisted at coding with Divx3 until the end of that year (Fruit Basket comes to mind).
Of course, I preferred D4 because people tend to encode at 640x480 with D4. Not so with D3 (which is just a hacked MS' mpeg4 implementation).

Found BakaMX's D3.11A Fruit Basket. I think their OP subbing for that series look better than even some modern groups' XD. The encoding still looks very good.
You actually have that a little wrong, though...

I took over encoding Fruits Basket for BakaMX and I'll tell you the story. Believe it or not, the original encoder for Fruits Basket (AnimeAvatar) made the controversial move to divx4 very early after the codec's release. This was back when EVERYONE was still using divx3. Divx4 was a lot easier to encode than divx3, with less obvious artifacing, but it suffered from looking "grainy".

Anyway, the first 3 eps were encoded in SBC divx 3.11a, eps 4-7 or so were in divx4. I took over encoding at episode 8, I believe, and was releasing two versions of the show, one in divx3 and one in divx4, until it was licensed after episode 11.

I appreciate you saying the subbing looked good, though. ^^;

-Tofu
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Old 2006-04-23, 00:41   Link #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tofusensei
You actually have that a little wrong, though...

I took over encoding Fruits Basket for BakaMX and I'll tell you the story. Believe it or not, the original encoder for Fruits Basket (AnimeAvatar) made the controversial move to divx4 very early after the codec's release. This was back when EVERYONE was still using divx3. Divx4 was a lot easier to encode than divx3, with less obvious artifacing, but it suffered from looking "grainy".

Anyway, the first 3 eps were encoded in SBC divx 3.11a, eps 4-7 or so were in divx4. I took over encoding at episode 8, I believe, and was releasing two versions of the show, one in divx3 and one in divx4, until it was licensed after episode 11.

I appreciate you saying the subbing looked good, though. ^^;

-Tofu
You forgot that I was re-encoding the episodes that were only released in Divx4 into Divx3 during my little "you suck, im getting the same quality for >20 mb less" fights with him. These were distributed to a few people so there probably are divx3 copies floating around.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tofusensei
Love Hina: Anime Fansubs, Anime-Heaven, Anime-Factory, OnAD, Nekomi Kodai Fansubs, HA (2000)

-Tofu
Random pieces of history. Anime-Heaven Love Hina 24 credits devilray (of E-F) as translator. I do not remember if this was before or after E-F formed.

Also, regarding animefactory (no -!) , the wayback machine has some interesting stuff on them like their decision not to use ASF. (You need to C/P this into an editor.)
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Old 2006-04-23, 01:26   Link #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bayoab
Also, regarding animefactory (no -!) , the wayback machine has some interesting stuff on them like their decision not to use ASF. (You need to C/P this into an editor.)
Or open with Firefox's IETab or Internet Explorer.
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Old 2006-04-23, 02:13   Link #52
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Smile Memories~!

What a lovely thread talking of the past and all ~! I joined #Elite-Fansubs near the beginning of '02 as a timer and typesetter. At that time, loae666 was the main translator, and he left after an disagreement with devilray concerning... something. Without translator, the #E-F sorta fell apart. Loae formed his own group, #Real-Fansubbers, to continue translating HnG.

I stopped typesetting/karaoking/whatever after doing the crazy special for SaiKano with gazillion signs. And haven't really regretted since ~ I'm better suited for leeching!

A couple days ago, I went to look around at what's new in the process of fansubbing, and it's really gotten a lot better with new software like AegiSub. Although I wouldn't say the quality has improved that dramatically especially with non-DVD sources for the past 4 years I would say the process has gotten easier -- a good thing!

Ah, I also remember the era of when TextSub plug was still new to everyone. I don't recall, but it might've been an effect on the op/ed that seemed humanly impossible to do in one of HnK releases, and I went on the holy grail quest to find out how it was done. Then I wrote a FAQ, but no one read it... heh. I also tried to teach others how karaoking is done, but no one read that either.

Still, the world of digifansubbing never missed a step, with or without me ~ hell, I think it got better without me! My successor (SakuraLan I think...) in R-F made her karaoke much better than mine! Really pretty and went with the song completely So, as I leech on happily, I appreciate the work everyone here put forth! I always watch each dancing karaoke with fascination, and the lovely moving text that syncs with the moving sign so nicely!

It's unfortunately most leechers don't understand how much work is needed to put out each single episode ~ ah well... life goes.

As a contribution to the thread other than the 2 HnG cut op karaokes, here's the very first anime I saw on computer ~! A #HQA@EFNet release! Enjoy!
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Old 2006-04-23, 02:15   Link #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tofusensei
Anyway, the first 3 eps were encoded in SBC divx 3.11a, eps 4-7 or so were in divx4. I took over encoding at episode 8, I believe, and was releasing two versions of the show, one in divx3 and one in divx4, until it was licensed after episode 11.
I only checked the first episode when I went thru the stack(my cheap cdrs are dying. I lost some episodes already, which is a good thing, right? RIGHT? ;^) ).

Anyway, some groups that came after you guys used D3 for fruit basket IIRC. (the cdrs are dead)

I was pretty amazed at the quality though when you guys released it . And no, I didn't join the codec fight back then. I was(am) just a leecher....


Quote:
but it suffered from looking "grainy".
Yeah that's the reason. I originally thought it has something to do with coloring...


Quote:
Originally Posted by bayoab
the wayback machine has some interesting stuff on them like their decision not to use ASF. (You need to C/P this into an editor.)
Blah, I hit the Firefox/IE problem. Had to switch to IE plugin.

Anyway, anything against ASF was a lost fight. It was technically superior to anything they had on the market back in 2000 (Real...hahahahaha good one. They did a good job with R10 though. Low bitrates encoding w/ R10 = gold ; quicktime...==mpeg4 in some weird containers) .
Anyway, at the end everyone uses ASF+Divx. Until Xvid comes along, of course.

Edit: Dumb question. Just remember the difference.




Edit2:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morph
What a lovely thread talking of the past and all ~! I joined #Elite-Fansubs near the beginning of '02 as a timer and typesetter. At that time, loae666 was the main translator, and he left after an disagreement with devilray concerning... something. Without translator, the #E-F sorta fell apart. Loae formed his own group, #Real-Fansubbers, to continue translating HnG.
Hehe. Your post reminded me. I check my not-as-old-but-still-old cdr stacks, and found ep1-39 of E-F HnG and some subsequent R-F HnG.

I want to say a few things-
1. That was back in the days when groups release files that are over 200 mb (VGA + D4). I remember a certain encoder (who shall remain nameless here) said that he purposely encode each files a bit bigger so that when you try to burn three files onto a cdr, they won't fit (by ~15 mb. Overburn? )
2. You guys switched from D3 to D4.
3. You can pretty much see the advance of subbing tools as the series aired . Codec changes, Jap karaoke, footnotes, sub screen overlay placement etc. .
4. I still remember people rushing into the channel when the HnG is licenced rumor started. There were false rumors before, so everyone was skeptical.

Quote:
A couple days ago, I went to look around at what's new in the process of fansubbing, and it's really gotten a lot better with new software like AegiSub. Although I wouldn't say the quality has improved that dramatically especially with non-DVD sources for the past 4 years I would say the process has gotten easier -- a good thing!

Funny you should mention this. A few months ago, I was just talking to a karaoke subber when he was translating/encoding the karaoke for a massively popular series (don't ask). We talked a bit about how hard it used to sub and encode (I was only mildly dangerous with this so...), and then he let me VNC (remote desktop) his computer to see how he was doing with the karaoke.
It is definitely is much easier nowadays, at least compared to my past experience. He finished the sub right before my eyes . Then he sent me the encoded file. Too bad I was busy coding to watch it.



I never did figured out what the hqa in "hqa&animeone" supposed to stand for . I thought it was a group, but then I thought maybe it just mean "High Quality Anime". XD

Noir huh. I never quite finished it.
HDTV raw? But the coloring is off. All the Noir sub that I saw back in 2001 are in VGA. I never seen this version before.
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Last edited by Thelastguardian; 2006-04-23 at 02:59.
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Old 2006-04-23, 02:39   Link #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tofusensei
I know some of the most influential groups at the start worked with Koreans who had access to HQ raws
Wasn't there a site called Shinbiro.com which was one RAW source aside the trading WinMX network? I never really found out how that worked and how you could get access to it.
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Old 2006-04-23, 06:31   Link #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LytHka
Wasn't there a site called Shinbiro.com which was one RAW source aside the trading WinMX network? I never really found out how that worked and how you could get access to it.
I had access to it. One of BakaMX's co-founders (dk_dusk) was a fairly influential korean on their anime trading scene and gave me a login. It was an incredible site. Leaps and bounds better than anything we even have today.

Imagine a web site with unlimited bandwidth and every episode of anime that airs, with really HQ raws, up for download mere hours after airing and with timed translation files (always .smi) up less than 24 hrs. This was before bit torrent, these were direct links.

This was where a lot of groups got their start from. BakaMX was one. This was also partially responsible for AnimeJunkies being able to sub so fast. If you saw an ep of theirs that said "Timed by Killshok" that meant "timing stolen from the korean release".

You'd be shocked at some of the shows that were being subbed that were actually Japanese -> korean -> English translations. A proper translator, with a knowledge of some Japanese, could do an excellent job. Korean and Japanese are, linguistically speaking, very close. Also, the culture references are more similar than compared to Western societies. Lastly, there are loads of Japanese-Korean bilinguals, and they tend to have an extremely high proficiency with the language, so the initial translations were very high quality.

Anyone remember FiveStar? I think he was an early korean fansubber as well as kevp.

Oh, I found this list too. Has some of the earlier groups and their networks:

a-e Anime-Empire #Anime-Empire DALnet/EFnet
a-f Anime-Fansubs #Anime-Fansubs EFnet
a-h Anime-Heaven #Anime-Heaven ANIverse
a-k Anime-Kissaten #Anime-Kissaten EFnet
a-v Anime-Videos #Anime-Videos DALnet
ac AnimeCo #AnimeCo
ad Anime Daisuki #Anime_Daisuki DALnet
adx Anime DivX #AnimeDivX EFnet
af AnimeFactory #AnimeFactory DALnet
ai AnimeInc #AnimeInc ETG
am AnimeMedia #AnimeMedia NewsNet
ampeg AmpegFansubs #animeMPEG DALnet
ani-net anime-network #anime-network DALnet / irc.synfuse.net
ap Anime Papaya #Anime-Papaya
ap AnimeParty #AnimeParty DALnet
ar AnimeRevolution #AnimeRevolution DALnet
as AnimeStation #AnimeStation WebChat
as AnimeSync #AnimeSync EFnet
au AnimeUnion #AnimeUnion WebChat
av AnimeVortex #AnimeVortex EFnet
avn AnimeVision #AnimeVision EFnet
bakamx bakaMX #bakaMX ETG
chiz ChiZeTo #ChiZeTo ETG
cf Choco Fansubs http://chocofansubs.cjb.net
cs Clear Shadow
e-f Elite-Fansubs #Elite-Fansubs ETG
fsf FanSubFiles
fivestar Fivestar
hnk Hikari no Kiseki #HikarinoKiseki DALnet/EFnet
ia Ishin Anime #Ishin-Digital ETG
ishin Ishin Digital #Ishin-Digital ETG
jd JDrama #JDrama EFnet
le LiveEvil
n-ef "Not EF"
nla New Life Anime #NewLife ETG
o-a Omega Anime Anime
p-a Psychlo-Anime #Psychlo-Anime DALnet
solar Solar #Solar ETG
soldats Soldats #Soldats ETG
ssx ssXanime #ssXanime WebChat
super5 Super5 #Super5 EFnet


-Tofu
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Old 2006-04-23, 08:50   Link #56
bayoab
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thelastguardian
Anyway, anything against ASF was a lost fight. It was technically superior to anything they had on the market back in 2000 (Real...hahahahaha good one. They did a good job with R10 though. Low bitrates encoding w/ R10 = gold ; quicktime...==mpeg4 in some weird containers) .
Anyway, at the end everyone uses ASF+Divx. Until Xvid comes along, of course.
Huh? They are talking about asf as a container format. Not divx3.11a.

Quote:
Hehe. Your post reminded me. I check my not-as-old-but-still-old cdr stacks, and found ep1-39 of E-F HnG and some subsequent R-F HnG.

I want to say a few things-
1. That was back in the days when groups release files that are over 200 mb (VGA + D4). I remember a certain encoder (who shall remain nameless here) said that he purposely encode each files a bit bigger so that when you try to burn three files onto a cdr, they won't fit (by ~15 mb. Overburn? )
2. You guys switched from D3 to D4.
3. You can pretty much see the advance of subbing tools as the series aired . Codec changes, Jap karaoke, footnotes, sub screen overlay placement etc. .
4. I still remember people rushing into the channel when the HnG is licenced rumor started. There were false rumors before, so everyone was skeptical.
Wait what? E-F never switched to Divx4. Infact, only a handful of groups were stupid enough to switch to it. (Bakamx, Ishin are the only two I can remember though I know there were more. The majority still used divx3.11a until divx5 and xvid appeared.) Divx5 v1 first appeared the same year divx4 did. Now, that was a bandwagon people joined.
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Old 2006-04-23, 08:59   Link #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bayoab
Huh? They are talking about asf as a container format. Not divx3.11a.


Wait what? E-F never switched to Divx4. Infact, only a handful of groups were stupid enough to switch to it. (Bakamx, Ishin are the only two I can remember though I know there were more. The majority still used divx3.11a until divx5 and xvid appeared.) Divx5 v1 first appeared the same year divx4 did. Now, that was a bandwagon people joined.
I don't think BakaMX ever "switched". AnimeAvatar was a divx4 zealot and switched for Fruits Basket and nothing else.

You're right, I forgot. The whole reason I started doing two encodes was to stop you from reencoding them hehe

-Tofu
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Old 2006-04-23, 10:07   Link #58
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Post

It's a shame that my anime list doesn't include group tags - else I'll have a nice history to present. But because I can find the CDs rather quickly, I don't mind finding stuff to verify information about encodes, staff, etc.

BakaMX Fruits Basket Episode 02 Opening - DivX 3 Low Motion
BakaMX Fruits Basket Episode 08 Opening - XViD?
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Old 2006-04-23, 10:14   Link #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morph
It's a shame that my anime list doesn't include group tags - else I'll have a nice history to present. But because I can find the CDs rather quickly, I don't mind finding stuff to verify information about encodes, staff, etc.

BakaMX Fruits Basket Episode 02 Opening - DivX 3 Low Motion
BakaMX Fruits Basket Episode 08 Opening - XViD?
Cool

ep 8's opening was divx4. I can't remember if I encoded that ep or if I started at ep 9. If you look at the credits (in the eye catch) it'll tell you.

I particularly like the small errors in the romaji. You could tell it was translated by a korean, hehe ^^;

And man, we got flamed like no one's business for putting a huge spoiler in the notes intro on that ep.

-Tofu
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Old 2006-04-23, 10:25   Link #60
Morph
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tofusensei
Cool

ep 8's opening was divx4. I can't remember if I encoded that ep or if I started at ep 9. If you look at the credits (in the eye catch) it'll tell you.

-Tofu
Ahhh, eyecatch! I was wondering where the hell the credits are! Let's see...

FB EP 2 EC
FB EP 8 EC 1
FB EP 8 EC 2
FB EP 9 EC 1
FB EP 9 EC 2

*Edit/Add*
FB EP 9 Eyecatch Vid

I'm not an encoder, so though I can manipulate the files, I can't really tell what the files are encoded in. The AVIs are cut using VDub DirectStream (is there any other way?)
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