AnoHana - Episode 8 Discussion / Poll

[TinyRedLeaf]

Amid all the angst, all the tears, all the drama, it suddenly struck me: Why is everyone so beat up over Menma in the first place?

I can understand her mother's anger, that the other children have grown up while her little girl didn't. But what was it about the circumstances of Menma's death that made every Space Buster feel so culpable about it? What have I missed? As far as I can tell, she died by accident. Yes, that alone could spoil anyone's rosy outlook on life, but to the point that they keep beating themselves over it with survivor's guilt, years after the event, for something they didn't directly cause?

Children, whose attention spans are usually so short that they can't remember much about what they did last week, let alone years ago? Why is Menma, in particular, so special that they still cling on to her?

As far as the show goes, I have not seen, till now, exactly why Menma was so influential to everyone in the group for her to matter so much to all of them. Even in the case of Jinta and Yukiatsu, I still don't know what so special about Menma for both of them to have had crushes on her instead of either of the other two girls.

Something just doesn't add up for me. It's a gaping hole that never quite got explained, much less filled up plausibly. Ah well.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

Amid all the angst, all the tears, all the drama, it suddenly struck me: Why is everyone so beat up over Menma in the first place?

Jintan - The very last time he saw her, he was extremely mean and later felt guilty about it, wanting to apologize only to find out she died while out chasing him that day. He feels that if he never got mad, which he was already guilty about, she wouldn't of died. Now he's super guilty.

Yukiatsu - Didn't leave on bad feelings necessarily, but unrequited. After finding out she died, he felt he added even more stress and worry to her in the events leading up to her death. That's where the guilt stems from. Also the fact that his first love died doesn't help.

Anaru - She flat out told you her reasons this episode.

Tsuruko and Poppo have yet to be adequately explained.

As for if they were old enough to truly care... Well perhaps the answer may vary depending on the person, but these people grew up knowing these things that happened. Guilt doesn't immediately happen. It's something that builds up and festers inside of you. They've had 10 years of that going on.

As for why Memma is so influential? Well Anaru again is self-explanatory. We don't know Tsuroko or Poppo's reason, but Memma seemingly was the unifier of their group in the first place.

Yukiatsu and Jintan probably liked her because of her personality. I mean how rationalized does love even have to be? She's supposed to be this cute, air headed girl who makes them feel good themselves with her kindness. *shrug*

[~Yami~]

perfect... this is so perfect....
I don't get sleep in 24 hours straight due to my university's activity but after watching ep 8 I was not sleepy anymore
I never predict that Menma's mother will blame the gang about Menma... I think that she is a kind mother who already accept the reality but looks like that she is still same with the others.
Anaru's confession is another epic scene... Anaru took a wrong time but actually her confession is soooo saaadddd.... If I am Jinta, I will comfort and accept her feelings but looks like I shouldn't underestimate Jinta. He already had his own decision and I will see about his response maybe in the next episode
The last scene is the best part. It's actually a horror scene (I hate them) but it almost make me cry.... ugh! Somehow Anaru, Poppo, Tsuruko, and Yukiatsu burst out their feeling and Jinta is speechless. Menma's intervention is one of the most important part that I have waiting since the first episode... XD... And Menma just got the right time...!! Nice one, Menma! That cold call and diary book are really brilliant plans....!!!!!

[Silverwyrm]

Originally Posted by ThereminVox

My poor Anaru though.. As long as Menma is hanging around Jinta, she doesn't stand...
*sunglasses*
... a ghost of a chance.

Hahaha your stupid pun wins me over for today.

With that said, they will all have to move on, it seems that regarding menma's death everyone feels responsible for *something* which is why its still on their minds. It's like everyone thinks it's their own fault for a different reason, but really, its just how things go. When someone dies in an accident we can trace back all the things that could have been said or done even slightly differently, but in the end no one could have known or can really be blamed.

There is still hope for Anaru yet, just not at the current moment

[Dr. Casey]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

Even in the case of Jinta and Yukiatsu, I still don't know what so special about Menma for both of them to have had crushes on her instead of either of the other two girls.

I found it a bit surprising at first that Yukiatsu liked Menma so much because she didn't strike me as the kind of person he'd care romantically for (Even the somewhat different childhood Yukiatsu was a pretty far cry from being like Menma in personality. Though I guess that having romantic chemistry with someone isn't a prerequisite for being interested in them), but she does seem compatible with Jintan, and personality types likes hers often get a lot of guys interested in them in real life. The outgoing, uninhibited type that sprinkle affection upon everyone often charm many people into falling for them because they make guys feel special and loved, and probably get more suitors than the aloof, intellectual types like Tsuruko, or even normalish girls like Anaru (Pre-skimpy clothing makeover, anyway). I don't think there's anything too surprising or unrealistic about two guys that spend a lot of time with Menma coming to like her (Especially since their relationship is already quite intimate to begin with, even as just a friendship); it's very different from, say, the typical harem scenario where half the protagonist's hometown is madly in love with him despite him being a pretty generic, nondescript guy. Hell, I think that if Menma didn't die as a kid, she'd have a lot more people after her than just Jintan and Yukiatsu.

[Valin]

Originally Posted by Ascaloth

Oh. Wow. This is... wow.

This here, this is good stuff. This is right up there with Maeda Jun's best. This is the kind of thing I've never seen in anime since "because it's the first thing Papa chose and bought for me".

I've missed anime like these for the longest time.

My thoughts exactly, ever since Clannad I've been waiting for an anime like this again

[Ascaloth]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

So apparently only Memma can get them out of this rut. Could she see things were wrong with everyone? Sure. But the whole series seems to be structured so far as building up just how badly Memma's death has plagued our cast and how Memma comes to terms with what she thinks she should do. It seems episode 10 was the culmination of that (First time Jintan's broken down in front of her). Again, it was merely the span of a few weeks that they've been in this situation.

Wow, you watched Episode 10 already? Dibs on your time machine, Reckoner.

Anyway, for those claiming plot holes here... it's Okada Mari. Anyone who's seen True Tears at the very least, should know she has a habit of keeping her cards close to her chest until the last possible moment. There's still a good 3 episodes to go or so before the series ends, so I'm betting this will be where the remaining questions are laid out eventually.

[satomianzaki]

wow really nice episode...so many revelations...

and nice reference there by jintan...i also liked the anime "dog of flanders"...its sad but a very good classic anime...

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Ascaloth

Wow, you watched Episode 10 already? Dibs on your time machine, Reckoner.

Oh my gosh I could've sworn I edited that out. Unfortunately I have no such time machine .

Forgive me, I am watching like double digit series right now, and I'm losing track of episode numbers in my head.

[TinyRedLeaf]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Jintan - The very last time he saw her, he was extremely mean and later felt guilty about it, wanting to apologize only to find out she died while out chasing him that day. He feels that if he never got mad, which he was already guilty about, she wouldn't of died. Now he's super guilty.

Yukiatsu - Didn't leave on bad feelings necessarily, but unrequited. After finding out she died, he felt he added even more stress and worry to her in the events leading up to her death. That's where the guilt stems from. Also the fact that his first love died doesn't help.

Anaru - She flat out told you her reasons this episode.

Tsuruko and Poppo have yet to be adequately explained.

As for if they were old enough to truly care... Well perhaps the answer may vary depending on the person, but these people grew up knowing these things that happened. Guilt doesn't immediately happen. It's something that builds up and festers inside of you. They've had 10 years of that going on.

As for why Memma is so influential? Well Anaru again is self-explanatory. We don't know Tsuroko or Poppo's reason, but Memma seemingly was the unifier of their group in the first place.

Yukiatsu and Jintan probably liked her because of her personality. I mean how rationalized does love even have to be? She's supposed to be this cute, air headed girl who makes them feel good themselves with her kindness. *shrug*

The problem I have is that it's only with Anaru that I can feel, as well as understand, her guilt over Menma, stemming from her having actually been pleased that she's dead, instead of being grief-stricken about the sudden loss. The reason Anaru's case works is that the series has focused quite a fair bit on her romantic feelings for Jinta, almost from the get-go: Her frustrations over liking a guy who just can't seem to get over a dead friend; her despair at seeing him sink further and further into a bottomless rut; her own episodes of naivete and vulnerability, which almost got her raped.

Is it any wonder, then, that she's among the most popular girl in the cast, if not the most popular? The show has done brilliantly, in my opinion, in developing her as a sympathetic character. Out of all of the Space Busters, she's the only one that I truly feel sorry for.

As for the rest of the cast, sure, we're given ample reasons for why they're all hung up over Menma. But that's just it: All we're given are bald assertions from the various characters. I just don't see enough evidence of why Menma mattered so much to either Jinta or Yukiatsu. Popo, well, he's mostly around for comic relief, so his motivations are only peripherally important at best. And Tsuruko is just being pulled along for the ride, with little to show for her supposed feelings for Yukiatsu.

It's just a lot of "tell", but very little "show". Hard for me to accept, therefore, that Menma was somehow so phenomenally important to all of them, crucial enough for all of them, not just Menma's mother, to get stuck in time, wishing to undo the chain of events leading to her death.

Basically, it comes to this: I broadly agree with Klashikari that while the execution of this show has been good (despite my inherently strong dislike for forced melodrama), the entire drama has been built on a flimsy premise, making the whole edifice far less effective than it should be. Menma is supposed to be this all-important catalyst that finally pushes everyone out of their funk, but I consistently fail to see evidence of this "special" aspect of her personality. On the contrary, she actually gets on people's nerves because of her constant indecisiveness, as Jinta angrily admitted an episode or two ago.

So, it's just plot contrivance, to me, that she has this supposed "magical" effect on other people. The characters claim it's there, but I don't signs of it, in the way I see the signs of Anaru's strong affection for Jinta. When it comes to Menma, the dramatic conceit just doesn't gel.

Little wonder then that I enjoyed episodes six and seven so much more than the rest of the show, since those were the only episodes so far that developed the rest of the cast as a whole, instead of obsessing over Jinta's inability to resolve his Menma "hallucination".

[Forsaken_Infinity]

I agree that the premise is flimsy and all the assertions feel contrived to begin with. But that still doesn't take away from the brilliance of the show. It does, however mean, and this is only my opinion, that this isn't really a masterpiece as some people are claiming. It's a very well executed show but the fact that the show has this iffy feeling about its premise can't be denied.

[totoum]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

And Tsuruko is just being pulled along for a ride, with little to show of her supposed feelings for Yukiatsu.

The fact she still keeps and wears the present Yukiatsu wanted to give to Menma was pretty much all I needed to see.

Menma being "the center of attention" doesn't mean she has to impact everyone directly

right now I see it as:

Anaru---->Jintan---->Menma<-----Yukiatsu<------Tsuruko

It's like a domino effect,Menma's death sent both Jintan and Yukiatsu in dispair which in turn affected Anaru and Tsuruko

Though I don't know where that puts Poppo.

[Guardian Enzo]

It's been made pretty clear that Jintan (in addition to obviously liking Menma) feels guilt because he insulted her, which he believes led to her dashing off and meeting her presumably Wakaba-like fate.

[TinyRedLeaf]

Originally Posted by totoum

Menma being "the center of attention" doesn't mean she has to impact everyone directly

right now I see it as:

Anaru---->Jintan---->Menma<-----Yukiatsu<------Tsuruko

It's like a domino effect,Menma's death sent both Jintan and Yukiatsu in dispair which in turn affected Anaru and Tsuruko

Which is why I asked, just what is it that both Jintan and Yukiatsu see in Menma? It's very telling that viewers have to invent their own reasons for this attraction ("Yukiatsu and Jintan probably liked her because of her personality"; "She does seem compatible with Jintan, and personality types likes hers often get a lot of guys interested in them in real life"). There is little direct proof, on screen, to show how Jintan and Yukiatsu came to be so strongly attracted to her. In contrast, there was ample proof of Anaru's feelings for Jintan from the very first episode, so much so that I didn't actually need her to admit how she really felt about Menma's death — her jealousy was so plainly obvious that her confession merely sealed what was implicitly known a long time ago.

Where, then, does the boys' romantic interest for Menma come from? It's just something we, as viewers, have to take at face value. That's hardly effective writing, in my opinion.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

Where, then, does the boys' romantic interest for Menma come from? It's just something we, as viewers, have to take at face value. That's hardly effective writing, in my opinion.

So you're unable to see why they should care about her so much in the first place.

I guess laying out the plot that she was a dear friend they happened to have a crush on isn't enough for you to believe the sheer amount of guilt that her death placed on Jintan and Yukiatsu. I then do find it ironic that you're saying they are doing too much "tell" instead of showing, considering that you've convinced me of just the opposite right now .

I mean there have been tons of moments expressing how much Jintan cares about Memma, the way he looks at her sleeping or when was on the balcony of a previous episode. This seems to be more of a case of showing and not telling no? I guess what you might want is more flashback, monologue, etc.

I guess the difference for me is that it was never hard to imagine why she's such a central pillar of the group, considering her personality.

In the end, I think the show comes down to how much the nostalgia factor plays a role in your enjoyment. A lot of people had the premise hit home for them, but it wasn't convincing to you it seems.

[Dr. Casey]

Can't tell if my post's subtly being called dumb or not, but I don't think I'm making random assumptions there; they seem like logical extrapolations to me.

And I dunno, I don't think there's anything wrong with the story asking you to accept Jintan and Yukiatsu's feelings at face value. Menma has a strong enough personality that it should be easy enough to discern what Jintan and Yukiatsu liked about her, and they developed feelings for her because they spent a lot of time together and she was the kind of girl that appealed to them. That works for me. I'm not sure why there needs to be much more justification than that - maybe you could explain why you believe there needs to be clearly defined reasons or justifications for Character A to like Character B, and that just saying 'Boy A likes Girl A' without delving into the reasons behind said like is poor writing? That would probably help me to understand your mindset more.

Your last post confuses me a bit, though, since it feels like you're taking two different trains of thought in comparing Jintan's/Yukiatsu's feelings for Menma, against Anaru's for Jintan. You say that there's no explanation as to just why Jintan or Yukiatsu like Menma so much, then you go on to say that you think Anaru's feelings for Jintan are handled better because they're hinted at from the first episode. That seems like two different trains of thought to me (Judging whether the reasoning behind romantic feelings are properly explained vs. judging whether romantic feelings are properly foreshadowed before they're revealed). Seems like comparing apples and oranges a bit, though the misunderstanding's probably a mistake on my part. And I don't remember Anaru's feelings for Jintan being explained in any more depth than Jintan's or Yukiatsu's feelings for Menma, even if they're foreshadowed more clearly and earlier in advance; you're just told that she likes him, the end (Though you can of course assume that she was attracted to his leaderlike personality, that she didn't know anyone else that shared her hobbies, etc).

[TinyRedLeaf]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

In the end, I think the show comes down to how much the nostalgia factor plays a role in your enjoyment. A lot of people had the premise hit home for them, but it wasn't convincing to you it seems.

Evidently so. As I've said, I have an inherent dislike for forced melodrama, and that's mainly what I see here. What's there to be sad about? I don't really "get" it. Lots of mawkish sentimentality, certainly, but very little in the way of hard-hitting grief, which is the kind of tragedy that really grips me.

Originally Posted by Dr. Casey

Can't tell if my post's subtly being called dumb or not, but I don't think I'm making random assumptions there; they seem like logical extrapolations to me.

No, of course I'm not calling it a dumb post, though it might come across that way because my replies are strongly worded. My apologies for any inadvertent offence.

Originally Posted by Dr. Casey

And I dunno, I don't think there's anything wrong with the story asking you to accept Jintan and Yukiatsu's feelings at face value. Menma has a strong enough personality that it should be easy enough to discern what Jintan and Yukiatsu liked about her, and they developed feelings for her because they spent a lot of time together and she was the kind of girl that appealed to them. That works for me. I'm not sure why there needs to be much more justification than that - maybe you could explain why you believe there needs to be clearly defined reasons or justifications for Character A to like Character B, and that just saying 'Boy A likes Girl A' without delving into the reasons behind said like is poor writing? That would probably help me to understand your mindset more.

I could name examples, but it's debatable whether the situations are directly comparable, since we'd be dealing with different stories with different premises. Not to mention the possible spoilers it would involve and the fact that discussing other anime here would be off-topic. Suffice to say, within the context of AnoHana, I find only one relationship to be well-developed so far: that of Anaru and Jintan's. Everything else requires me to fill in the gaps too often with my own imagination.

[sayde]

I'm a little embarrassed to have to this ask the following to you all. But I'm apparently too dense or clueless to figure this out for myself. And thanks to the end of this episode, I feel now's the perfect time to get some answers.

1.) Why hasn't Memma proven her existence before by interacting with matter in everyone's presence? Because from the way I'm seeing it, her being able to interact with matter is nothing new to her. And it's not like she hasn't had multiple opportunities to establish her presence in this way before. Is there some kind of ghostly limitation to this ability that I don't know about? Can she not interact with matter while people are looking in her direction? lol

I guess what I'm trying to ask is...why wait till now? Because I don't want to believe that this idea of interacting with matter in front of her friends to prove her presence only just occurred to her this episode.

2.) Question #2 is related to question#1. What was stopping Jintan from asking Memma to prove her ghostly presence/existence to their friends before now? Did he think that he was merely imagining Memma to be capable of interacting with matter this entire time? Did he assume people wouldn't be able to see her interact with matter even if he could (which makes little sense to me)? Or did he not want to expose Memma without her approval or something like that?

I feel the story writer already expected the viewers to understand the answers to the questions I just asked. But for whatever reason, it went completely over my head. And as much I'm liking this series, it's by far the most frustrating aspect of it for me--and it's preventing me from fully enjoying it as much as the rest of you all. So I'd appreciate anyone who's willing to shed some light on the issue. Because I just don't understand why Memma couldn't/wouldn't reveal herself before the end of this episode.

[totoum]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

There is little direct proof, on screen, to show how Jintan and Yukiatsu came to be so strongly attracted to her. In contrast, there was ample proof of Anaru's feelings for Jintan from the very first episode

You're saying that on one side we have to take Jintan and Yukiatsu's love for Menma at face value but on the other the reasons for Anaru's love for Jintan are properly explained?
Is so there's something I don't follow in your logic:I don't see how the origin of Anaru's love for Gintan is explained either,her jealousy is a consequence not a cause.If you want to know why she likes him so much that she's this jealous you also have to " invent your own reasons".

[Raiga]

This isn't so much about AnoHana; it's just that one of the scenes reminded me...

Ever notice how people always go somewhere else, usually a park or tea shop, when they have to talk? They NEVER have their conversation where they meet. I'm just trying to imagine in real life, running into someone on the street, "Oh hey, we need to talk. Mind walking for ten minutes to the nearest tea shop, settle down, place our orders, and then discuss it?" Not just in anime; it was during a J-Drama that I first noticed this trope. I swear it happens all the time.

... yeah I was reminded of that by Jinta and Menma-otouto. Still enjoying, still don't have much else to say... ^^;;