(L) Freezing [Manga]

[GendoAizenPig]

@Robot-Dinosaur
I really think this whole Kazuya power thing was gotten so overblown and people won't change their opinions on the matter, but I'm pretty sure I would've remembered them confessing their undying love for Kazuya. Did that happen before or after they tried to kill him? I mean they are completely subservient to him, but tried to kill him. All I was saying was that the author took the time to draw Andre and Morrison alongside Elizabeth and Arnette. As DragonOsman said, if the author was really going to go the harem route, why even waste the time drawing the other limiters at all? Honestly though there's really no convincing either side about this.

[DragonOsman]

^Exactly. Where in the world did they actually come out and say they love Kazuya? To my knowledge, the only ones who actually love him are Satellizer, Rana and Ouka.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Robot-Dinosaur

The traitor is unexpected though, I'll admit.

Not really. It was quite clear she was helping Gengo under duress so it's no surprise she betrayed him.

I must say, though, that I'm not quite sure what you mean when you say this latest chapter would assuage the feelings of the people upset about Kazuya's Netori field.

Considering you folks were under the impression this was the authors underhanded way of getting rid of the Limiters so the Pandoras could join Kazuya's harem, the fact they're still around should make you guys happy.

We've had Elizabeth, Arnett and Ticy express their undying love, devotion and servitude to Kazuya...

This never happened.

Originally Posted by DragonOsman

^Exactly. Where in the world did they actually come out and say they love Kazuya? To my knowledge, the only ones who actually love him are Satellizer, Rana and Ouka.

As I mentioned above, it never happened. People somehow conflated Kazuya accidentally brainwashing the Pandoras with their falling in love with him.

[DragonOsman]

Thank you. And yes, I agree.
10-char limit.

[blitz1/2]

Where is Arcadia?! You introduce her for like what 3 chapters, and then she disappears?! Where is my bro-con imouto dose?!

[Tachibana]

Originally Posted by blitz1/2

Where is Arcadia?! You introduce her for like what 3 chapters, and then she disappears?! Where is my bro-con imouto dose?!

Don't worry, if anything she's already beaten a few Pandora-Types and absorbed their soul energy and is on her way to unite with her brother. She should show up very soon.

[Sapphire Rhodonite]

Hmm...it's no-one's fault but my own but, I must admit, I got my expectations up clearly a bit too much when people were posting that this chapter had 'evidence' of any kind of affection on Elly or Arnett's behalf towards André or Morrison comparable to the affection they've displayed and held for Kazuya.

But its my fault for having an unrealistically optimistic expectation. I mean...I am right, they just stand in the background, correct? That's all? I didn't miss something did I? As far as I can tell neither of them have speech bubbles so I'm guessing they aren't partaking in the discussion either.

@Endscape: I know you have the best intentions, and disagree with me, but I just want to be clear that this isn't, to me, about a 'harem'. Its about who the Pandora value more, are more intimate with and care for more, are closer to.

And I do have to say I think its a bit unfair to say that a fan of Morrison or André should be 'happy' just because they appeared in the background of a scene. I mean I'm a fan of Elly, and Arnett to an extent, and their relationships with André and Morrison. Just seeing them standing, with no interaction or even communication, doesn't really make me 'happy' because it means nothing. It just means they exist...which is one thing I'm absolutely sure of.

EDIT: I removed this last little bit, about the love, cause though I stand by my point I don't really feel like dretching the point up again. I don't think there's necessarily a need too.

[Robot-Dinosaur]

Originally Posted by DragonOsman

Just them being shown by itself might be enough of a sign that the author isn't going for the "All of the Pandora are now in Kazuya's harem" route. And the influence from Kazuya's power itself could also just be temporary as well, with them already being free from it by now.

Even if it doesn't go the harem route doesn't mean it isn't going the soft core-netori route. The main problem people seem to be having is that the Pandora all feel more strongly for, are more attracted to and spend more time with Kazuya than with their own Limiter partners. Don't see how this latest chapter addressed that at all.

@GendoAizenPig: As for whether it's gotten overblown, probably, but I don't think that's surprising. I mean if something like this happened to Kazuya and Satellizer, so like Goro or someone used a Freezing on Satellizer that made her go all Doki Doki Master! for Goro and then never have any kind of closure where we see her denounce said feelings and explicitly depict her feelings for Kazuya are stronger people would get real made.

I think a lot of people would just like some form of closure. Oh and of course the fear that going forward this is the manga's new plan, Kazuya making the girls cream themselves over him whilst the Limiters just stand in the background like cucks.

As for the love thing, personally, I'd take 'surrender everything I have to him' to be as close to it as you can get considering its an explicit admission that you value him above all other things in existence.

Personally I'd be convinced if there was a scene showing Ticy or Arnett or Elizabeth expressing to André, Morrison or Abel even a fraction of as much love and care as they've expressed for Kazuya. Or if Ticy, Arnett and Elizabeth were shown to hang out with, and enjoy hanging out with, André, Morrison and Abel as often and much as they do Kazuya. That'd convince me straight away.

@Endscape: Guess I musta missed the hints then *shrugs* it happens.

Also how does the Limiters still being around change the fact that the Pandora are all expressing more interest, attraction and affection for Kazuya then for their own partners and that they spend more time with Kazuya than with their own partners? That hasn't changed yet so I still don't see why this chapter would assuage anything.

[DragonOsman]

Them saying they surrender themselves to Kazuya was more out of a feeling of subordination, as a servant to his/her master, than romantic love, though it also made them violated due to which they took their anger out on Kazuya right afterwards (but that feeling of perverse violation wasn't Kazuya's intention and he apologized in his head for it, too).

Yes, they're spending more time with Kazuya now, but unless they actually say they love him more than their respective Limiters, I don't think you guys have a case here. I mean, there could be other reasons why they're spending more time with him, right? Why does it have to be out of love and affection? Seriously.

[GendoAizenPig]

Okay I know this is pointless, but I'll give it a shot anyway. Arnette has been friendly with Satellizer and Kazuya since the first Nova Clash shown in the manga. Elizabeth has been friendly with them since Alaska and Ticy hasn't really been hanging around them all that much in general. She has been hanging around Elizabeth who just so happens to have been hanging around Kazuya and Satellizer. Them hanging around Kazuya and Satellizer didn't magically happen after he used his power on them. It was earned friendship from battles they went through together.

The author focused a lot of time on Elizabeth and Andre's relationship. It was a major focus of the E-Pandora arc. He also wrote a side story about Arnette and Morrison. Same goes for Ticy and Abel. Why ruin all that development for a stupid reason like this? There is nothing to indicate that Kazuya's powers had lasting effects. They were going to kill him for violating them. That's a fact. Does that sound like they retained their affection for him? He forced a power that had Ereinber Set effects on them and because of the way that power works they got the same feelings from it.

Raw Spoilers Below

Spoiler:

The RAWs showed that they didn't know where Kazuya was and they weren't freaking out about it until Satellizer lost it. If they were crazy subservient slaves to him, shouldn't they have been keeping tabs on him? If they're always with him shouldn't they have known he was gone before Satellizer freaked out and told them? Why were they wasting time with their limiters instead of him if they care about him more than them?

The effects of the power wore off and were temporary. All signs since that infamous chapter seem to support that. I think you guys should let it go, but I know that's not going to happen.

[DragonOsman]

^Yeah, I, too, know that it's futile, but I agree with you completely despite that. They really were ready to kill him (Arnette was, at least - Elizabeth was angry, but she tried to control it).

But wasn't Arnette one of the Pandora trying to get Satellizer to submit to Elizabeth in the beginning? She became chummy with her and Kazuya later, though, and like you said, she was friends with them already before Kazuya used his power.

[GendoAizenPig]

Originally Posted by DragonOsman

^Yeah, I, too, know that it's futile, but I agree with you completely despite that. They really were ready to kill him (Arnette was, at least - Elizabeth was angry, but she tried to control it).

But wasn't Arnette one of the Pandora trying to get Satellizer to submit to Elizabeth in the beginning? She became chummy with her and Kazuya later, though, and like you said, she was friends with them already before Kazuya used his power.

Arnette was shown at the party after the events of the first Nova attack inviting Satellizer over for drinks with Elizabeth and her friends. Chapter 38. This is also the first time Elizabeth and Satellizer meet face to face. She has been friendly to them ever since. She was one of Elizabeth's underlings that tried to make Satellizer submit, but was also the first to let the whole feud go.

[dark44]

as long as they are pandora and have stigmata they well be subservient slaves to him
Kazuya didnt use his power at frist but he was created to rule pandora
and why this argument about Arnette and Elizabeth he have the legendary pandoras and other pandora which have no limiter

[DragonOsman]

He was created to rule them, but his power itself is only temporary and they were royally pissed off at him after it wore off because of how it made them feel. And I bet that they still love their respective Limiters.

@GendoAizenPig: Yeah, if it's that, you're right.

[Sapphire Rhodonite]

Originally Posted by dark44

as long as they are pandora and have stigmata they well be subservient slaves to him
Kazuya didnt use his power at frist but he was created to rule pandora
and why this argument about Arnette and Elizabeth he have the legendary pandoras and other pandora which have no limiter

Sounds about right.

Also why there's an argument? It's because this isn't a matter of what Kazuya 'will' or 'should' do. Its a matter of what he 'can' or 'could' do.

It doesn't matter anymore if Elly or André get together, or if Arnett or Morrison stay together because their relationships are completely false and shallow. Arnett and Morrison could start a happy family life for years and years together but the moment Kazuya snapped his fingers Arnett would throw Morrison away like trash and do anything to be with Kazuya. The Pandora, all of them, now want to be more with Kazuya then anything else ever. That's canon.

I like relationships, they're a beautiful thing, I like the emotional complexity of people and the fact that different people find happiness in different ways, not all with one person. I liked that. That's why this matters. It matters because, I fear, Freezing has now made it canon that no Pandora can ever truly be happy or truly love anyone other than Kazuya. That breaks my heart.

Originally Posted by GendoAizenPig

Okay I know this is pointless, but I'll give it a shot anyway. Arnette has been friendly with Satellizer and Kazuya since the first Nova Clash shown in the manga. Elizabeth has been friendly with them since Alaska and Ticy hasn't really been hanging around them all that much in general. She has been hanging around Elizabeth who just so happens to have been hanging around Kazuya and Satellizer. Them hanging around Kazuya and Satellizer didn't magically happen after he used his power on them. It was earned friendship from battles they went through together.

The author focused a lot of time on Elizabeth and Andre's relationship. It was a major focus of the E-Pandora arc. He also wrote a side story about Arnette and Morrison. Same goes for Ticy and Abel. Why ruin all that development for a stupid reason like this? There is nothing to indicate that Kazuya's powers had lasting effects. They were going to kill him for violating them. That's a fact. Does that sound like they retained their affection for him? He forced a power that had Ereinber Set effects on them and because of the way that power works they got the same feelings from it.

Raw Spoilers Below

Spoiler:

The RAWs showed that they didn't know where Kazuya was and they weren't freaking out about it until Satellizer lost it. If they were crazy subservient slaves to him, shouldn't they have been keeping tabs on him? If they're always with him shouldn't they have known he was gone before Satellizer freaked out and told them? Why were they wasting time with their limiters instead of him if they care about him more than them?

The effects of the power wore off and were temporary. All signs since that infamous chapter seem to support that. I think you guys should let it go, but I know that's not going to happen.

I just want to say that I also feel its really pointless.

I really liked the relationship development between Elly and André, as well as between Arnett and Morrison and Ticy and Abel. That's why its so sad to me that the most intimate and happy I'll ever see Elly, Arnett and Ticy be is with Kazuya and never with their own Limiter partners.

Why is it so strange that I, someone who likes Arnett and Morrison's relationship, would be that Arnett's most intimate and happy scenes are with Kazuya and never Morrison? Or that Arnett spends more time with and interacts more with Kazuya than with Morrison? It doesn't seem strange to me, if Satellizer spent more time with and was more affectionate to Louis than to Kazuya I'm sure fans of Satellizer and Kazuya's relationship would be upset, and I'd understand that, so I don't know why it seems so unacceptable.

I've just become really tired. I used to look forward to reading Freezing Pair Love Stories, now I never bother to check when the next chapter comes out, and I used to really love any hints of Morrison and Arnett, or Elly and André in the main series but now what's the point? No matter what happens Arnett, Elly, no Pandora will ever be as happy or as in love with someone as they are with Kazuya. It's all hopeless because in 196 and 197 they explained, explicitly, that Kazuya's the thing all Pandora want more than anything else. I just really am not looking forward to more chapters of Morrison just standing around, terrified, screaming Arnett's name while she ignores him and creams her pants over Kazuya again.

GendoAizenPig I get that you feel I'm ridiculous I just don't get why since it seems pretty obvious why someone who likes the relationships other than Kazuya would be sad with this development. I'm not going to say you're wrong, I think some of your points might make sense, but at the same time I'm not sure and I'll wait and see. But I do think its pretty obvious why anyone who likes a couple other than Kazuya's would be sad about this development. That I think is true.

But it doesn't really matter, its just my issue so don't worry about it too much, I hope you can keep enjoying this series and please have a nice day, sorry to have interrupted you. Bye.

[GendoAizenPig]

@Sapphire Rhondite
I didn't want to do a long post because, again, I don't feel like there's a point, but I just want to point out that I do like Andre and Elizabeth. I also do like that the other Pandora have limiters of their own. I think "true harems" without exception are complete trash so I really don't want Kazuya to have one. So basically, I'm on the same side as you are, so I really don't know why you went off on a tangent implying that I'm somehow not. I liked Freezing Pair Love Stories a lot and would've liked it to have continued. This whole Pandora are in love with Kazuya thing lacks any substance at this point. Unless you have anything to support it, then it's not even an argument. I've put plenty of examples from the manga that support my side. They were being controlled. Kazuya was their puppet master. That's not love. Is that really so hard to understand? He is meant to lead the Pandora to transcendence. It's not absolute obedience. We've seen that Elizabeth was somewhat resisting it. We also seen

Spoiler:

a Pandora that could've still killed Kazuya after he used his power on her

in the RAWs. We don't even know if they kept their transcendent powers. If they did, he may never use the power on them again. My argument isn't that it won't happen. It's that there isn't anything to support that it will in the chapters since then. Your "argument" basically boils down to Kazuya has puppet master powers, so he could in theory make them his harem slaves. The reason this lacks any basis is because controlling people isn't love. Kazuya controls them through their stigmata, so they could just remove said stigmata if he went evil harem master. His hypothetical forced love doesn't make Elizabeth, Arnette, and Ticy's real love for their limiters any less real. I mean I personally think Ticy was in love with Chiffon anyway, but that's beside the point.

This is really the last post about Kazuya's powers from me. This has been going on for months and literally nothing has changed. If new information comes up in the story about this subject, I'll certainly be up for discussing it again, but until then I'll be focusing on talking about the new chapters and that's pretty much it. If you count that as winning the argument, then I guess more power to you.

[Sapphire Rhodonite]

@GendoAizenPig: I'll try to be short since I didn't really want to get drawn back into this, I considered my conclusion reached a while ago.

I'm on the same side as you are, so I really don't know why you went off on a tangent implying that I'm somehow not.

I really am sorry if it seemed I was implying that, it wasn't my intention at all, I don't care to much about 'sides' on this matter in all honesty. All I was trying to say is that my dislike for a thing doesn't have to impact on someone else's enjoyment thereof, sorry if it seemed I was implying more.

This whole Pandora are in love with Kazuya thing lacks any substance at this point. Unless you have anything to support it,

How is it not canonical that Freezing, a communication between hearts, results in Elly and Arnett expressing their desire to place Kazuya in primacy above all other things (which includes any other relationships they have)? Or how is it not canonical that Elly and Arnett experience greater pleasure, contentment and happiness from brief seconds of contact with Kazuya than from years of contact with Andre and Morrison? I understand you disagree but...I don't think there's no substance.

The reason this lacks any basis is because controlling people isn't love.

I wouldn't of minded if Kazuya simply 'controlled' them the same way the Nova have before. But Arnett, Elly and Ticy clearly experienced more than simply being 'controlled' and expressed their intense enjoyment their of. Explicitly Arnett, Elly and Ticy all three felt that being under Kazuya's control was the best experience of their entire existence. I am concerned purely with the emotional aspect of what occurred, if all that occurred was a matter of 'puppet-master' then it would not have saddened me.

I also dislike the implication thereof that females enjoyed their violation more then they enjoy consenting relationships. That sickens me.

His hypothetical forced love

By definition I don't think 'forced love' makes sense, it's contradictory, it isn't love if forced. Hence why Arnett, Elly and Ticy's expression of love bothers me as it is a conclusion of their own hearts and minds made in reaction to Kazuya.

If you count that as winning the argument, then I guess more power to you.

No I don't count it as winning anything. I don't really care about winning in all honesty, I just feel sad over what occurred to a group of couples I was fond of and find expressing that sadness one of the few ways to alleviate the feeling. I don't mind saying you've won if it is something you want, honestly I prefer just not to think of it in terms of win or lose at all.

I hope the cleared up your confusion over what I meant.. Sorry for the long time it took me to respond, I didn't know what to say at first. Again sorry for the interruption. Bye.

[Robot-Dinosaur]

Them saying they surrender themselves to Kazuya was more out of a feeling of subordination, as a servant to his/her master,

Don't know if that really changes it, not to mention I don't think its really accurate considering Elizabeth described it as 'stealing her heart' which definitely sounds romantic in nature.

Besides, if your significant other comes up to with a stranger and says that their going to value this stranger more than you but not 'romantically' only as a 'slave' would you really be happy about that?

Why ruin all that development for a stupid reason like this?

Because, as seen in the comments responding to the chapters, a lot of fans love the idea of a male protagonist cucking beta-males and value a harem over anything like characters with self-respect. Same reason anime and manga's been doing this for years, cause its pandering to its audience the lion's share of whom don't care what happens to an Andre or Abel but do get excited at the idea of an Elizabeth or Arnett fawning over the protagonist (the self-insert for the fantasy). Its wish fulfilment basically.

I mean why have it happen in the first place if the goal is not to ruin it? It one wants the relationship between Andre and Elizabeth to matter then why have Elizabeth's most intimate and intense emotional experiences be with Kazuya and not Andre?

Unless you have anything to support it, then it's not even an argument

I don't quite understand this because, from what I can tell, there are points here being raised which aren't being engaged with. To me at least. I can go over them if you want but...I looks to me that there were clear points which weren't addressed.

He is meant to lead the Pandora to transcendence. It's not absolute obedience.

Okay so, hypothetically, you got a lover who one day comes home with their boss and tells you that, from now on, they will be serving their boss as a slave, creaming their pants over the idea of becoming an extension of their boss's will, devoting more time to their boss and, importantly, engaging in more intimate activity with their boss then they ever will with you. Would you really just be okay with that? Because most people definitely would consider that kind of impossible to handle in any genuinely mutual relationship.

I mean I personally think Ticy was in love with Chiffon anyway, but that's beside the point.

I think we can all agree that if someone has it rough its Abel. His only contribution to the plot is to almost die and get raped and he's pretty much valued by no-one. He clearly cares a lot about Ticy but he ranks below Chiffon and Kazuya in importance to her (in fact outside of their chapter in the side story I think she barely even knows he exists). Being Abel is suffering I suppose.

I'd agree with you though, that's my reckoning of the relationship too.

I also dislike the implication thereof that females enjoyed their violation more then they enjoy consenting relationships. That sickens me.

Agreed, this trope is repulsive beyond words.

[Robot-Dinosaur]

@Sapphire: So according to one translation of chapter 205 it seems Elizabeth and Arnett didn't just 'happen to bump into' Kazuya but were specifically meeting up with him (including Creo for some reason) to discuss his ability.

Satellizer also seems to imply they're okay with the power now. Kind of a quick turn around for Arnett really, takes her a day to go from spitting mad and feeling violated to apparently being okay with it and, from what I can tell from Satellizer's lines (admittedly not the best translation) also be okay with Kazuya using his powers.

What actually wanted to say though is that it seems you were right originally Sapphire, it wasn't just Kazuya running into them, they wanted to personally talk to Kazuya without their Limiters.

[Forbin]

Huh Arnet and Elizabeth aren't even in 205.

Spoiler:

They teleport Kazuya to the Nova world