"Defeat" in Romance Series: When Your Chosen Girl Loses [Spoilers Ahead!]

[aohige]

Ctrl + F "School Rumble"

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What trickery is this
Flag vs Onigiri faction battles is a prime entry in annals of all shipping wars

[ninryu]

Suffice to say I will not rest until Kuroko gets the ending she deserves.

[SuitUp]

Well, there are legitimate examples of losing girls that were handled better than the main girl, we got Toradora for example, Ami was way better handled than loli tsundere Taiga, but Taiga was right there in the title, and Ami was destined to be a side character..
There are other times where the shipping gets the better of the fanbase, try to argue about anything about Haganai and it will eventually devolve in a shitstorm about Pathetic Bullying Girl vs Stupidly big breasted blonde...

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

1) First girl wins.

2) Tsunderes tend to win. Even if there are no girls that neatly fits under "tsundere", the one closest to a tsundere tends to win.

3) Many love triangles in anime are male lead, "magical girlfriend", and "girl next door". "Magical Girlfriend" will almost always win these. Basically, the girl with something truly different about her (alien, magic-wielder, has superpowers, etc...) will tend to win out over the relatively normal "girl next door". Note that this is one of the things that can trump tsunderes.

4) If a pairing is more or less established by the end of Season 1, it's highly unlikely that there's going to be a lasting shift away from it.


These four rules alone will account for most romance conflicts in anime.

Triple, you're describing the 2008 anime meta , which still sound in some low level (bronze level) anime contexts (granted there are still many), I think the meta has shifted quite a bit. My point is that 1 base Kugrie tsundere all in pushes, much like 4 pool zergling rushes, can still catch unwary players off guard because the low skill cap for execution means that is far easier to use it than to defend against it, but it's extremely ineffective against experienced viewers that can see it coming. I feel such writers need to learn to stop cheesing and learn to actually write. Sometimes you get a random one like Oreimo, although that was the result of one of the crappiest balancing patches in which every other viable choice was nerfed to hell.

Ok, I'm just kidding, but I do see a bit more variety these days outside the dime a dozen stuff.

[Triple_R]

@Last Sinner - Excellent point on Rumbling Hearts. For me, that was one of the most unpredictable love triangles in anime I've ever watched, and it is a great example of a show going against one or more of "the rules" I listed.

As for the other shows you listed, I'll keep them in mind for future watches.

Originally Posted by Tempester

In regards to that, I'm sure Mashiroiro Symphony bemused many people here.

Mashiro-iro Symphony was an excellent romance anime. And part of the reason is what you're referring to here.

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

Triple, you're describing the 2008 anime meta , which still sound in some low level (bronze level) anime contexts (granted there are still many), I think the meta has shifted quite a bit. My point is that 1 base Kugrie tsundere all in pushes, much like 4 pool zergling rushes, can still catch unwary players off guard because the low skill cap for execution means that is far easier to use it than to defend against it, but it's extremely ineffective against experienced viewers that can see it coming.

Good Starcraft comparison, lol.

Well, the KugRie tsundere is definitely a big part of the 4 rules I listed. In fact, Shana is a case of someone who combines all 4 of them together - So anybody rooting for Yoshida was truly rooting for a hopeless cause.

With the decline of the KugRie tsundere, the tsundere archetype itself isn't so dominant these days. Still, being a tsundere tends to help.

The 4 rules I listed are much less an absolute guideline (as you can find a fair number of exceptions to each), but more a case of "Are you wondering why your preferred girl isn't winning? Well, one or more of these rules could explain it".

A lot of heartache over shipping disappointments could be avoided through keeping the meta-level and creative trends in mind.

[Marcus H.]

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What trickery is this

Don't remind me of that series' endings, anime or original source. I'm sure a lot of parties are still raging about that.

There are other times where the shipping gets the better of the fanbase, try to argue about anything about Haganai and it will eventually devolve in a shitstorm about Pathetic Bullying Girl vs Stupidly big breasted blonde...

You're forgetting about Rika.

Triple, you're describing the 2008 anime meta , which still sound in some low level (bronze level) anime contexts (granted there are still many), I think the meta has shifted quite a bit. My point is that 1 base Kugrie tsundere all in pushes, much like 4 pool zergling rushes, can still catch unwary players off guard because the low skill cap for execution means that is far easier to use it than to defend against it, but it's extremely ineffective against experienced viewers that can see it coming. I feel such writers need to learn to stop cheesing and learn to actually write. Sometimes you get a random one like Oreimo, although that was the result of one of the crappiest balancing patches in which every other viable choice was nerfed to hell.

I'm not a Starcraft player and I can still understand that.

Following through the gaming comparisons, the meta-game has shifted well away from the tsundere lead. I'm not that exposed to light novels to make an exact measure, but I can certainly feel that more series nowadays tend to choose a lead that is quirky in other ways than a tsundere could or just simply belong to a different archetype altogether.

For example, neither among Yaya from Unbreakable Machine Doll, Yukina Himeragi from Strike the Blood and Natsume Tsuchimikado from Tokyo Ravens are tsundere. (If Yukina is a tsundere, then she's the more balanced tsundere, not the trademark "TsunRie".

I for one welcome our new romance metagame, but I think what's more obvious right now is the patterns on the kind of story written and no longer the characters involved.

[DevilHighDxD]

Saki Rukino won, I don't cared how much denial I am in, the ending couple is Saki Rukino and Haruto tokishima. Haruto didn't die... He perfectly fine... Fine..........

So since Haruto is alive, he again proposed to Saki and she agreed.

So it their wedding at the end right? Not other right?

So therefore Valvrave's final couple is Saki and Haruto.

(Went through a extreme period of self-denial and self-coping with a imaginary ending that Saki ended up with Haruto, accepted that as my replacement of the actual Ep 24)

[Pocari_Sweat]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

Triple, you're describing the 2008 anime meta , which still sound in some low level (bronze level) anime contexts (granted there are still many), I think the meta has shifted quite a bit. My point is that 1 base Kugrie tsundere all in pushes, much like 4 pool zergling rushes, can still catch unwary players off guard because the low skill cap for execution means that is far easier to use it than to defend against it, but it's extremely ineffective against experienced viewers that can see it coming. I feel such writers need to learn to stop cheesing and learn to actually write. Sometimes you get a random one like Oreimo, although that was the result of one of the crappiest balancing patches in which every other viable choice was nerfed to hell.

Romance in anime is generally poor, much like Starcraft 2 is pretty a poor (and dead) game these days .

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

For example, neither among Yaya from Unbreakable Machine Doll, Yukina Himeragi from Strike the Blood and Natsume Tsuchimikado from Tokyo Ravens are tsundere. (If Yukina is a tsundere, then she's the more balanced tsundere, not the trademark "TsunRie".

I never kept up with Unbreakable Machine Doll after the first few episodes, but I distinctly recall significant growing chemistry between Raishin and Charlotte Belew, and Charlotte is the most textbook tsundere you'll find this side of KugRie.

Perhaps later/recent developments have made Raishin/Yaya seem a certainty, but that definitely wasn't my take on it after the first few episodes. In fact, Raishin struck me as seriously annoyed by Yaya's frequent advances on him, while Raishin also seemed to have a bit of a thing for Charlotte. I felt there was a decent chance of Raishin/Charlotte becoming the main pairing at some point, though my suspicion is that Unbreakable Machine Doll will probably have one of those inconclusive endings (romance-wise).

[larethian]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

@Last Sinner - Excellent point on Rumbling Hearts. For me, that was one of the most unpredictable love triangles in anime I've ever watched, and it is a great example of a show going against one or more of "the rules" I listed.

As for the other shows you listed, I'll keep them in mind for future watches.




Mashiro-iro Symphony was an excellent romance anime. And part of the reason is what you're referring to here.




Good Starcraft comparison, lol.

Well, the KugRie tsundere is definitely a big part of the 4 rules I listed. In fact, Shana is a case of someone who combines all 4 of them together - So anybody rooting for Yoshida was truly rooting for a hopeless cause.

With the decline of the KugRie tsundere, the tsundere archetype itself isn't so dominant these days. Still, being a tsundere tends to help.

The 4 rules I listed are much less an absolute guideline (as you can find a fair number of exceptions to each), but more a case of "Are you wondering why your preferred girl isn't winning? Well, one or more of these rules could explain it".

A lot of heartache over shipping disappointments could be avoided through keeping the meta-level and creative trends in mind.

Shana is protected by the law of the cover girl:
http://bookwalker.jp/series/1734/%E7...er=1734&qcom=3

[SeijiSensei]

Originally Posted by Pocari_Sweat

I heard that shippers totally ruined the discussions forum for Chihayafuru Season 2...

Maybe elsewhere, but not here. I've actively participated in both seasons' discussions and do not feel they were ruined. People have opinions about whether Taichi or Arata makes a better match for Chihaya (if indeed she even cares about romance), but there so much else to discuss about Chihayafuru that shipping could hardly have been said to "ruin" the discussion. We had long conversations about things like karuta strategies and the choice of the signature poem for each week's episode.

[Reckoner]

It's best to actually form an opinion for yourself basically rather than extrapolate based upon what others said about it. The Chihayafuru discussions were mostly pretty good.

[Arya]

Well, I'm one of those viewers that sadly can be affected quite a bit by the romance in a series, but since usually the outcome it's quite predictable I can decide early on if I want to stick with the show or not.
On the other hand my involvement is usually directly proportional to how unpredictable the ending is (damn WA2). So basically my rule is a sort of trade-off between how good the writing is and how disappointing the romance is or could become. Rule that I don't apply in romance anime since, well, the romance and the plot usually are strictly related.

So my problems start when the plot is consistent to some degrees but later on it starts to degrade to follow a predestined route. Koichoco is a perfect example of it.

Spoiler for Koichoco:

It had a consistent storytelling that built up a certain couple, then it drifted badly to the main girl. So generally in this cases, since I think I have sound arguments I tend to write them down.

And they get mildly worse when the writing is really good, at least for the first cour, like in Zetsuen no Tempest.

Spoiler for Zetsuen no Tempest:

This is a particular case because the setting already excluded any possibilities, despite the ambiguity of that sibling relationship, so when the plot stopped to engage me I dropped it, around the first couple of the second cour's episodes.

And they reach hell's levels in cases like Kids on the Slope.

Spoiler for Kids on the slope:

in which the writing is really good, the settings, romance-wise, seem to point to a certain couple, but for some reasons the girl that was madly in love with his childhood friend starts to waver for the MC, that was not really that good.
I had to drop it no matter what around episode 5 or 6. I don't remember anymore.
I never been so involved in a romance since True Tears.

And finally there are the nirvana cases like Chihayafuru in which I supposedly should not be able to keep my shipping demons away, but instead I don't care because the show is so well written in many aspects that it doesn't matter (until the quality of the show keeps its standards).

Oh, and by the way, I'm still on the fence about a certain series is still airing.

[Sackett]

Originally Posted by monir

From the ones that I've watched, I've yet to come across a series where I couldn't predict which girl would end up with the guy by the end of the series. Every story leaves a pretty decent amount of clues and hints to point toward the direction a story is going to take to establish the eventual pairing if any. Of course there are stories which doesn't resolve the pairing and leave it ambiguous. Even then, such story will present enough clues and hints toward that particular direction over pairing. So yeah, even if I think girl A should win, a story will politely correct me if I'm paying attention and will tell me to take off my shipping-goggles. So yeah, I'm bragging about how I have yet not to root for the girl that has lost at winning the affection of the useless (and equally clueless) hero in any of these romance-heavy anime stories I've watched. It doesn't mean the girl who is poised to win was my favorite. I was simply able to recognize and admit that my favorite girl had no chance in hell at losing her virginity to the useless hero at that moment.

Right now I'm trying to think of an anime where I thought the wrong couple developed at the end.

I'm actually having a hard time of it. I guess because to me love is a choice, and so therefor a person choosing a character is important, even if that's not the character I would choose.

Also, you have to think about how a couple fit together which might be different then myself.

Like Shinji and Asuka. Sure they are going to have a messed up relationship, and I probably wouldn't choose it, but hey, Shinji chose Asuka. Considering Shinji's character I can see why he would make that kind of choice.

Ranma, Tenchi Muyo, Haruhi, even Love Hina I felt fine with the canon pairings. (Love Hina is a great example of a girl I would never, ever choose, but who I don't object to the main character choosing since he obviously knew what he was getting and he wanted it.)

So I guess I tend to support the canonical pairings. To not support the canonical pairing there has to be something weird going on. Like maybe if the lead was choosing to be the girl he didn't actually want to choose.

So... I guess if Chrome Shelled Regios ultimately paired Layfon up with someone other then Felli it would be kind of off putting to me (assuming no further character development) since Layfon clearly wants to escape his role as a martial artist, and Felli is the only girl that supports that change. However Layfon feels a lot of pressure to do what he's expected to do, so I could see a story develop where he chooses the girl he feels he's supposed to instead of the girl he wants.

If Layfon were to change his mind and decide that he does want something different then what he has currently expressed wanting then I guess I wouldn't mind so much if he ends up with a different girl.

Now there are times when I've felt bad for a girl who loses. I mean I actually like Akane in Ranma 1/2 and think that's actually the best choice for Ranma, but I do feel bad for Ukyo. Probably because unlike most of the girls she has a legitimate claim on Ranma, and because she didn't decide on making a play for Ranma until after Akane said she wasn't interested. I've always wondered why Akane never gets called out about that fact. Even if I feel sorry for Ukyo though, it doesn't bother me that Ranma choose Akane, because that's obviously how it should be. They just fit together.

[ChainLegacy]

Originally Posted by aohige

Ctrl + F "School Rumble"

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What trickery is this
Flag vs Onigiri faction battles is a prime entry in annals of all shipping wars

That was the most disappointing romantic ending of all time. I mean, the show was comedy primarily, but for the last year of its run, the romance seemed to become more and more important... The author trolled us all...

Spoiler for school rumble:

I think I was an Eri supporter (been a while), but I'd much rather Yakumo have won then for NO ONE to win...

[relentlessflame]

For my part, I'm going to agree with monir's point earlier that I'm usually more interested in how a story justifies the plot development it sets up, so I've very rarely been surprised by the romantic development in anime, nor felt that the "wrong girl won" beyond just my own superficial preference (which plays second fiddle to the way the story justifies its own direction in my mind; even in bishoujo games, I can accept multiple different endings in a story as long as it's reasonably justified in the narrative).

The only types of "defeat" (so-to-speak) that I dislike in romantic anime are cases where the final relationship seemed underdeveloped or poorly justified, and this is mostly because it just isn't very romantic or all that interesting beyond a superficial level (if you like that particular pairing).

One of the hardest narrative twists to pull in romantic anime, I've found, is "actually, I've been in love with her/him all this time, but just never realized it/admitted it". The potential pitfall is that it can feel cheap if you didn't show enough hints of this earlier in the story, and can render all the rest of the romantic development portrayed in the story null and void by the power of "as-yet-unseen backstory". This sort of trick is sometimes used to bring a story back on course and take it down a canon route, even though many other more-seemingly-plausible options were explored and then cut short. So, to me anyway, the success of this particular pattern depends on how strong of a foundation they've set-up so that when the "turn" happens, you feel that it makes sense. Of course they have to find the right balance here to not make things feel too straightforward/obvious, but how this sort of element is played (if used) can be a big factor in my enjoyment of the story.

I do like many romantic stories where there's a "twist" and the development isn't completely obvious at first, so long as they carefully leave the foundation so that you can clearly trace the path they followed to get to the ending point. I do find that, in many of these cases, many viewers seem unwilling to re-examine the story and look for the hints they missed, and instead judge the result rather than whether the journey made sense.

[aohige]

Originally Posted by ChainLegacy

That was the most disappointing romantic ending of all time. I mean, the show was comedy primarily, but for the last year of its run, the romance seemed to become more and more important... The author trolled us all...

Spoiler for school rumble:

I think I was an Eri supporter (been a while), but I'd much rather Yakumo have won then for NO ONE to win...

Huh?

The added chapters later strongly suggest

Spoiler:

Eri won, even married Harima and had his child.

[ChainLegacy]

Originally Posted by aohige

Huh?

The added chapters later strongly suggest

Spoiler:

Eri won, even married Harima and had his child.

Wow, never knew there were added chapters. I dropped the manga after School Rumble Z seemed to show no signs of resolution. In that case, I retract my complaint.

[Ithekro]

In some anime doesn't "defeat" mean you have to marry the woman (you defeated)?

[Marcus H.]

In this thread, it means that your favorite girl lost over the one established canon pair.