[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Ep. 4 Alliance of the golden witch

[rogerpepitone]

LuckySovietStar:

Spoiler for the chapel:

In the "Rosa did it" method, she only needs to enter twice, and only needs to be sneaky the first time, which was before the murders took place.
~12:01 AM: Rosa enters the cousins' room, and quietly opens the envelope. She uses it to unlock the chapel. No murders have taken place yet.
~6:30 AM: Rosa is standing outside the chapel, key still in her purse. The envelope is in Maria's purse, unsealed.
~6:35 AM: Rosa enters the cousins' room, looks through Maria's bag, and pretends to remove the key from it. (Battler sees her.)

Spoiler for Jessica's room:

Originally Posted by Umineko

Inside the room, which seemed elegant for her age, Jessica had fallen over. There was a large pool of blood on the floor.

If she'd locked the door from the inside after being fatally wounded, there would be a blood trail from the door to her body.

Is there any mention as to whether her room was carpeted? It's feasible to clean blood off hardwood or tile in short order, but not carpet.

[LuckySovietStar]

Oh, I totally forgot about blood trail. I must ask my dad about any way of concealing it, he should have seen back wounds like this few times, and moving really injured people is kinda part of his work.
Also, it make so hard getting Kanon out of this room. No blood of his and all. And no blood trail. Unless Jessica chosen his pool of blood as her resting place, and she herself wasn't bleeding all the way . Or he was already dead before start of the game etc. I will try prepare some crazy twisted logic tomorrow or at my school opening ceremony.

Also about Rosa did it-I just don't like it. Too obvious? Also, one thing that made me think about DUPLICATOR X is that picture of Chapel, you know, that one from 1998. I bet she wanted to get to this place...Also, I will reread Jessica room part, because my last rereading was focused on things after this (at first I was just goin to compare anime adaptation and VN scenes, but you know, Musou Rosa is best mother ever. I love that part...)

[AncientSpark]

Spoiler for About the Chapel:

Does it state anywhere that the Chapel was actually locked in red? Or that someone visibly tried to open the door? I know the servants say that it is so, but that could be chalked up to a habit (unlikely, though) or the servants are all lying (more plausible). I mean, Rosa unlocks the chapel, true, but I don't recall if the description of the chapel says anything specific about there being signs of the Chapel actually going from a locked state to an unlocked state. Even if there was, some of the signs, such as hearing the lock change, could be faked. Yes, if the servants were in on the murders, this method is pretty flimsy, because it'd fall apart if Rosa even checked the doors, but, then again, a servant could have intervened and pretended to try to open the door, faking proof that the door was locked. It would depend on their confidence and their acting ability.

If LuckStarSoviet's section about the Red Truths contains the only relevant truths to the Chapel, then here's how it works. The door was never locked when Rosa arrived with the key! The servants were lying, either unintentionally or intentionally. As long as the Chapel was unlocked before the key was given to Maria, the murder could have been done by anyone, so long as they had the support of the servants. The fact that Beatrice mentions what would happen if the door was locked is a misdirection tactic. In fact, if this lie was intentional because the servants are accomplices, this "fake locked door" method can be applied universally to any of the closed room murders, so long as there was nothing that showed that the door was definitely locked (such as the chain during Episode 1's second twilight or a Red Truth). For example, during the Six Closed Room murder (I forgot which episode), it never shows who checks the door, so any servant could have designated one unlocked door and purposely chose that one to "fake unlock". Even if one of the others happened to find out that door was unlocked, everyone else would have been just as suspicious, so the only thing to lose, in this case, is the supernatural factor.

[porchoky]

Please stop me if I'm spewing BS but I was thinking about something (won't help solve any mysteries, just formalities, so to speak).

So in Higurashi, every time Rika died, she and Hanyuu 'ressurected' themselves by traveling to another kakera, right? (I'm not sure on this one).
However, in umineko, there are Voyager witches who can travel between kakera, and witches like Beatrice who can't. So every time the game resets, is Beatrice using her endless magic powers to reset the whole world or something back 2/3 days? Or is she unconciously teleporting herself and meta-battler and everyone else to another kakera to repeat the same 2 days?
If it's the former, how did old Agne ever become? Did Beatrice let the world go on for long enough for her to become of that age? Doesn't it also mean there is only one Ange, just that she keeps getting reset back so technically, there are no 'lone' Anges if Battler eventually wins.

[~Diru~]

I'm not sure, but I think it has to be something like kakera travelling, because a reset wouldn't make sense.
The future where Eva survived wouldn't exist because Beato and Battler would be locked in a repeating circle of time, which only continues when solving the riddles.
Also it should be the same murderer every time if it was a world reset, because otherwise multiple persons would have plans to kill the rest.
Hmm now that i think about it, the resetting of the world 2 days into the past could maybe create a parallel-dimension(new kakera?) so the time on the first one continues the normal flow while the new one starts again two days before.
I'm not sure about all of that, but maybe we'll get infomation about that in later episodes

[LuckySovietStar]

Six Closed Room Murder (Episode 3, First Twilight) is a tricky one. We don't know who opens door, and also who check the bodies. So if Conspiracy of Servants is true, even if doors are truly locked, keys can be placed at will, if one of servants is a person who check the bodies. Also, this can apply to Nanjo in Jessica room as well.

Spoiler for Chapel:

About never locked Chapel. I don't remember any Red Truth about it being locked (I used this compilation to double check, but I might overlooked something). When Beato started using red, Battler was trying to found some other entrance. So she stated, that Regardless of whether they were living or dead, the six people definitely entered through the door. I wonder, does it mean that exactly, no more and no less than six peoples entered Chapel? Or maybe its just that they come here in six person party? And what the hell, dead do not count as people (Kinzo), so why that living or dead part? Even if they dancingly entered Chapel with help of some ultra puppeteer as his dolls, they can't count as people in red. Strange. Or maybe that was misdirection and she was talking about persons who discovered bodies? But if I remember correctly, there was not enough...Rosa, Genji, Kanon, Gohda, Shannon? Cousins were late, and Kumasawa was sleeping, yes? And Nanjo was summoned after discovery....Oh, I see! So this already dead part is for Kanon .
Also, Chapel memo was not in shiny envelope. Very...casual. Almost like it was for adults to discover and come to the Chapel, not for Shannon. Maybe they were supposed to bring memo with them, not left it for Shannon to found? Or maybe one of adults (Kyrie) was suspecting something fishy and under "Oh, I will clean this and this" she left memo? Also, I don't think that Rosa know Kyrie's handwriting. Also, when Battler appeared at the Chapel, it was already opened by Rosa, so we can't trust whole "Rosa tried to open it, then rushed for key, and opened it with it" scene.

Spoiler for Usual?:

And there is something funny. When Beato is lazy and don't want to repeat again and again that everything is like previous rooms, she says Natsuhi's room was exactly the same, just like usual. "Usual" seems to start with Jessica's room, not with Chapel. Why? Because Chapel can't be opened with Master Key? Or because Chapel, in difference to Jessica's\Servant's\Natsuhi's rooms was never locked in first place?

Spoiler for Key Box:

Oh, also, with "you can reach key box from different room than servant's one", parlor and mysterious letter is easy to break. The original key to the parlor is sealed in the servants' room. So, when Rosa and co left parlor, Culprit entered, placed letter, left and returned parlor key. And Rosa need to bring her spectacles .
I mean, it's not that hard. You can't hide in hole on the wall, nor you can pass trough it, so they are not hidden door. And you can cover hole with keybox. It can work, but there is no way we can check on which wall it was, and what was corresponding room? I seriously need a map of Island and Mansion.

[Jan-Poo]

And there is something funny. When Beato is lazy and don't want to repeat again and again that everything is like previous rooms, she says Natsuhi's room was exactly the same, just like usual. "Usual" seems to start with Jessica's room, not with Chapel. Why? Because Chapel can't be opened with Master Key? Or because Chapel, in difference to Jessica's\Servant's\Natsuhi's rooms was never locked in first place?

The "usual" thing only refers to the "closed room" definition. Beatrice at this point was obviously tired of repeating the same things over and over. Of course the complex definition of closed room started with Jessica's case.

[LuckySovietStar]

So, Chapel was never put under that definition?

[Jan-Poo]

I don't think it was at that time. there are some closed room solutions that haven't been denied in the case of the chapel.

For example Battler later imagines that even if there aren't secret passages, there still might be a hidden place where the killer could have hide himself. This was negated in all the closed room of ep2 but not in the chapel's case.

[~Diru~]

For example Battler later imagines that even if there aren't secret passages, there still might be a hidden place where the killer could have hide himself. This was negated in all the closed room of ep2 but not in the chapel's case.

But that was denied in red in ep4 wasn't it?

There was no one hiding in the chapel.

[Jan-Poo]

Maybe. Does a secret room connected to the chapel is still considered part of the chapel? Yeah it's a word play. It's not like I really believe this is the solution. After all the idea from the beginning was kinda lame.

[~Diru~]

Also about the 6 persons, it was stated that

All six were genuine victims, and did not take part in a mutual murder!

and

When the six were killed in the chapel, the culprit was inside the chapel!

So there were at least 7 people in the chapel at the time of the murder.

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by ~Diru~

Also about the 6 persons, it was stated that

All six were genuine victims, and did not take part in a mutual murder!

and

When the six were killed in the chapel, the culprit was inside the chapel!

So there were at least 7 people in the chapel at the time of the murder.

That red text does not confirm that all six were killed at the exact same time.

If the culprit lured them in one at a time and murdered them then it is still true that all six of the victims were murdered while the culprit was in the chapel.

[porchoky]

Well, if you consider the small scene beforehand where all the adults are gathered in the chapel acknowldeging Beatrice, there were 8 (or 7+1 witch) people in the chapel.
Maybe Beatrice murdered 6 of the adults after that scene, then Rosa freaked, ran out and stole Maria's key and locked it up so no one would know.

[AncientSpark]

Wasn't it said, in red that "The key passed through no one's hands", or something like that? Rosa wouldn't have been able to lock it at that point, as the key would have been with Maria.

[~Diru~]

Starting when Maria's key was received, and until the instant Rosa unsealed it the next day, it passed through no one's hands!!

-> If it was 00:01 it may count as the next day so it may be possible if it happend after midnight.

But why would she open the envelope again later to open the door?

[LuckySovietStar]

She propably wanted to make sure that some of cousins will see her taking key from Maria's envelope. Creating a witness. You know, just going somewhere and acting like "Oh, I found key, ha ha ha" surely would be suspicious; this way if somebody would ask "Did she really found it just now?" Battler would say "Yeah, I've seen it". No more questions, hrm.
Also, I wonder. In anime, Nanjo was with servants when they were standing before Chapel, waiting for Rosa; I dont remember him being in that group in novel. This might be thing of little importance, but with Nanjo, there is exactly six people group to enter through front door before Beato stated it in red, so maybe she wasn't speaking about victims

[~Diru~]

Yeah I thought about that too, but in the VN did Rosa check if someone noticed her?
I think Battler only thought "I thought there was someone" when she already left, while he talked to her in the Anime.
And she could have placed the key back into the envelope after closing the door, when this happend there would be no reason to get the key from the envelope, because this would make her suspicious.She could have waited until an other person thought about Marias envelope.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by LuckySovietStar

She propably wanted to make sure that some of cousins will see her taking key from Maria's envelope. Creating a witness. You know, just going somewhere and acting like "Oh, I found key, ha ha ha" surely would be suspicious; this way if somebody would ask "Did she really found it just now?" Battler would say "Yeah, I've seen it". No more questions, hrm.
Also, I wonder. In anime, Nanjo was with servants when they were standing before Chapel, waiting for Rosa; I dont remember him being in that group in novel. This might be thing of little importance, but with Nanjo, there is exactly six people group to enter through front door before Beato stated it in red, so maybe she wasn't speaking about victims

God... now I'm imagining the scene.

Rosa goes to the cousin's room to create a witness.
She finds everyone asleep
She coughs
they are still asleep
she stomps the floor heavily
they are still asleep
she slams the door
they are still asleep
she smacks Battler in the head
Battler: Uh? What?
Rosa finally pretends to search in Maria's purse

[mizou]

I have a small theory about the closed room
since in red text, it said that when a room door is closed there's no manner to escape or enter the room without a key
in the four first games, the servants are suspected
but what if the door was not locked ?! I mean that the one who try to open the door simulate that it was locked