2012-11-30, 06:05 | Link #61 | |
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Your linguistic professor most likely don't know enough about the geography and history of those areas. Anyway, those regions are inside China for a reason. |
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2012-11-30, 06:53 | Link #63 | ||
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The map is still mostly correct. It's called an "ethnolinguistic map" because it documents both the main ethnic groups of China as well as generalized linguistic categories. The language of the Uighur people is a Turkic, non-Chinese language, so it gets its own color. Now, you might say, there are also Han Chinese who speak Mandarin living there. Not historically. Tibet was Tibetan and whenever it was under Chinese control there were not many Chinese there to make the local language anything other than Tibetan. There is still at least a plurality of Tibetan speakers in Tibet. That is where the language is spoken, why should the map not reflect this? Where is the map incorrect? There are not enough categories. There should be six more colors south of the Yangzi river because down there they speak dialects that cannot be understood by a fluent Mandarin speaker, because they are in fact different languages. But then again if it lumps the Tibetan and Burmese languages into one color I don't see why it shouldn't do the same with the Chinese ones. The map is right after all. I think what you're getting riled up because you're seeing China presented as not one pure group, which in your mind might legitimatize separation and thus weaken the country. But there should be nothing to fear since, after all, Cantonese and Mandarin speakers have been able to see themselves as equally Chinese for 2000 years since their land got totally incorporated into China. I'm sure the Tibetans would be willing over time to do the same, provided they continue to see "Chineseness" as something positive... |
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2012-11-30, 08:21 | Link #64 | |
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2012-11-30, 08:46 | Link #65 | |
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Basically, most of the province is physically inhabited by Mongol-speakers, with a few concentrations of Han Chinese in various areas that give the province 80% of its populace. That's why the province is mostly the Mongol color but there are circles to mark the Han populations. I suppose a similar situation exists in Xinjiang. |
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2012-11-30, 09:51 | Link #67 |
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^While I agree, I'm against reversing the already established demographic situation.
Spoiler for and frankly...:
No matter how much a dickish move this is, we really shouldn't lease it out to the populace. How many of people on this thread know how did the deportation of Germans from Czech and Poland proceed ? It wasn't nice.
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Last edited by Ridwan; 2012-11-30 at 10:15. |
2012-11-30, 10:54 | Link #68 |
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I don't really believe in retroactive application (no, we're not going to be changing things to what it was in the past), but it is a fact that the process is still ongoing particularly in Uyghurstan, and this I consider a crime against humanity where the central government is basically engaging in cultural genocide in the name of "progress", transplanting loyal ethnic groups using incentives and bulldozing the lifehood of the people already living there. Ever wondered why there is such high ethnic/class tension in the region compared to other parts of PRC?
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2012-11-30, 11:20 | Link #69 | |
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Anyway, in that vein, Poland would shrink a lot and the bulk of Prussia reincorporated back into Germany...
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2012-11-30, 12:42 | Link #70 |
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What Sume meant was that in the case of China, they have so many Han Chinese available for migration that they can just flood an area with people and assimilate the local population, and not be accused of ethnic cleansing. What Poland (the Soviet Union, actually) did was not the same, that really was ethnic cleansing of local Germans.
I think that while it's pretty despicable of the PRC to actively undermine Uighur attempts to preserve their heritage, if Han Chinese have an incentive to move they should be able to. Eastern China is overpopulated after all. And the subject of heritage, I wonder if their language at is actually in danger or not. I know some Uighurs and they say they learn Mandarin as a second language and use Uighur for local dealings. Since they have a slight majority, I do not think their culture or tongue is in immediate threat. |
2012-11-30, 12:51 | Link #71 |
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My main problem is with entities like the Xinjiang Production and Construction Corps, Bingtuan for short. It has gone from its original principle of "not competing for benefits with the local people" to actively planting settlers and giving economic benefits to only those settlers at the expense of Uyghurs. It's one thing for the Hans to have an economic reason for moving, but quite another when the state is deliberately undermining the livelihood of the local people in order to consolidate control. There's a big difference in how things are done in Uyghurstan compared to other regions such as Tibet or Inner Mongolia.
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2012-11-30, 13:41 | Link #72 | |
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Clearly, you want to believe in some feel-good reasoning instead of hard data. |
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2012-11-30, 13:59 | Link #73 | |
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We really should get back to the original topic, though. |
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2012-11-30, 14:16 | Link #74 | |
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So you're saying the Han Chinese are living out on the plains with the native Mongols? I doubt it. Where there are cities, there will be a majority of Han people, but no migrant is going to move to Inner Mongolia so he can live the traditional nomad lifestyle, no, he's probably got a job in an urban area.
Look, the ethnolinguistic map doesn't say there aren't any Han there; it clearly marks their presence with the circles. If you can't be bothered to read maps posted on the same page, forget wikipedia! Quote:
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2012-11-30, 15:12 | Link #76 | |
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This is pretty much poking the US if they'll do something about if China does something this stupid. While China has ambitions of the Asia Pacific as its sphere of influence or think it is , it isn't. They don't have the same projection power as the US with carrier groups and overseas bases. The US values the freedom of navigation even if they would resort to force. It has happened before during the Iran-Iraq War. |
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2012-11-30, 15:42 | Link #77 | ||
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayannur Quote:
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2012-11-30, 15:54 | Link #78 |
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And? That's just one place. What about the aforementioned Xilingol League? Or are you conveniently ignoring data that contradicts your flawed view of the world, thus showing the hypocrisy of your "hard data" theory?
Really Tom Bombadil, stop acting like some of the mindless nationalists. You're better than that. |
2012-11-30, 16:01 | Link #79 |
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how old is the map, it not be wrong so much as out of Date.
looking at google ("Language map of China") quite few of those map shows much more penetration of Han language in Xinjiang then this one.
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2012-11-30, 19:59 | Link #80 | |
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Not enough? Let's look at Baotou, which has 2.6 million with 94% Han, though the latter statistic is from 2000, when it had 2.3 million. The metropolitan areas have 1.8 million between them, with the northern part of the prefecture sparsely populated. These Han areas are represented by circles too. Still, you haven't answered my question: Where do the Han live? When they go to Inner Mongolia to work, do they go off to the countryside, herding and doing whatever it is the locals do on the plains? Or do they live in towns and cities to do industrial and service work? If that is the case, wouldn't the bulk of the land still be ethnolinguistically Mongolian? Although I will be willing to concede that the map is probably somewhat old. |
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