AnimeSuki Forums

Nih · 2009-07-19, 13:55

Whoever the killer is, it seems they are bent on keeping Battler alive until the end (being the protagonist seems like a weak explanation). The reason might be related to his sin six years ago (since Beato said that's why people die). As such the killer cannot attack any people that are under Battler's supervision, otherwise the illusion of the witch will fall apart. Looking at it this way, we can assume that from the killer's point of view, Battler is the key that chooses the first 6 sacrifices, and then possibly the order of all the other murders. Now if we assume this is the case in all the games (again, Episode 3 is likely an exception in some way), then Natsuhi, Rosa, Eva and Kyrie could be taking their turns as accomplices, but I just don't like it because whoever is an accomplice needs a motive for it and likely knows something about the status of Kinzo's wealth and gold. As does the mastermind. The mastermind also needs to be related to Battler's sin.

So, following this somewhat flimsy logic, why would Natsuhi fall in despair after Krauss shows her the golden ingot? Is she the mastermind or is it more likely that the mastermind is using her somehow? Perhaps she simply had a nervous breakdown and forced the servants out along with Maria because she suspected them all to be related to the killer. And that could be her blunder, because if they all simply stayed in that room until police arrived, they would have likely all survived.

Kitsu · 2009-07-19, 13:57

Well who would want to kill the children?
The only slots who could be the accomlice are five "dead" people. Kanon, shannon, Krauss, Eva and Hideyoshi but all of them have someone important among the children.

I once had a rather cliche theory which actually fitted a bit to much because you all forgot something a second person wanted the others to leave and that was Jessica.

It's that damn Bonney&Clyde cliche.

Spoiler for Theory:

Kanon and jessica are the culprits. Jessica devolped a hatered against her family or what ever led her to this. kanon maybe had is own motive or just did what she wished for (he is furniture after all and seems to take a liking in her) and maybe if we look at the first circle you could interpret it that way. The circle breaks bonds and gives freedom. You can now look at their cliche situation. Dada! Another motive which is combined with the first circle! The first murders weren't carried out in random of course, the persons who deserved it the "most". The mother who slept soundly and made a nice impression on Jessica (the time she smiled and said she would give her the mirror) survived also she was given the charm by jessica. The blood on her door is made by either Kanon or Jessica to scare Natsuhi and make the impression of a witch. Rosa who beat her child gets killed. Krauss who supressed his wife and child gets killed. Gohda who annoyed and angered Kanon that day died as well. Kyrie and Rudolph...there are two possibities ... I go for the first one. They are at fault that Battler left the family...if they didn't marry Battler wouldn't have left (the connection to Battler's sin). Then there is Shannon...the girl who no one expected to be there. shit happens or so people say.
The second twilight is easy as well. They died because they suspected and insulted the others (inculding the servants(and with that Kanon), jessica and maybe even because they attacked Natsuhi and Kanon dislike Eva) Then there art the next murders. kanon's death is of course fake...but that doesn't mean Nanjo is involved in a murder or mastermind or something. we know that all three, Kanon, Nanjo and Jessica were alone in the room..."treating" him. But in reality they talked him over about faking his death to find the real cuprit or something (or promised him money for his grandchild whatever)
Kinzo's death is a little harder, there are two options...someoneelse burned his corpse because the hoped that everyone assumed it was a murder as well and then when Kanon found him he just staked Kinzo, or Kanon himself burned him somehow.

The next deaths are easy as cake. Jessica was of course totally sad about Kanon#s death. And attacked Maria and so on.
as soon as they were locked inside the study, Jessica put the envelope on the desk, Natushi is shocked..."Shit where does this come from! of course not from Jessica! she would never do something like that!!" Jessica's purpose in the study was to make sure a few really have to leave so Kanon can go all happy blood action without being shot by Natsuhi. Of course he didn't harmed Maria (who is a "dear" cousin of Jessica and had a bad childhood and was treated badly by Rosa) After playing a bit with faces Kanon calls the Study, to make them leave and do the next killing. Jessica's job is again to amke sure Natsuhi answers the call. Then it gets a little blurry.
Maybe Natsuhi's killing wasn't planned by jessica but Kanon just wanted to shot her or jessica hated her mother compleatly (for reasons told in Ep 2, paying no attention to her daughter, only seeing the new heir in her) and wanted to spare her to the end. I think it's the former.
After that I don't have a clue...because I don't what the heck happened after that and how they died and stuff. Maybe Kanon and Jessica just killed them because various motives (Battler leaving the family, George hitting on Shannon or just because they think it would be the good end for him and he would be reunited with Shannon, and Maria was killed out of pity) Or Kanon killed them (including Jessica and then later commited suicide in the boiler room) Jessica killed them (including kanon and putting him into the boiler room and then making something to get herself and the other cousins all smashed) etc.

Nih · 2009-07-20, 09:04

I think the mastermind has a double objective in mind: money and revenge. There's a high likelihood they hate the Ushiromiya family, children included. This hatred is probably related to Battler's sin somehow, but is not necessarily its origin. My only guess at this point is that it has something to do with Kyrie and Kasumi. Who else would be smart enough to commit a crime like this in the whole cast? But it's just a guess, Ange is considered to be an important piece because she provides us with insight into the future of Episode 3, which likely holds some clues to the tragedy on Rokkenjima (for example it shows who could potentially benefit from this tragedy). Even still, it's possible that the mastermind has yet to be revealed.

Let's try putting ourselves in Ryukishi's shoes. We want to write a good crime novel, we're done with about half of it. Clearly we need to have dropped some important hints for the readers, but if the answer would become obvious from those hints alone, what would be the purpose for the answer arcs? I have faith in Ryukishi and I think he still has quite a few tricks up his sleeves. And yes, my opinion is biased because I like all the characters in Umineko and don't want any of them to be a culprit in the end. But that's of course Ryukishi's decision, so no matter the outcome, I'm sure I will enjoy the rest of the novel just as much if not more than I had up until this point

Here's to a hope for a happy end :P

maximilianjenus · 2009-07-20, 12:56

That reminds me that the culprit at higurashi was/is one of my faves.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alaya

EDIT2: However, I won't deny the possibility of some compounds that I don't know, or are only known by specialists in dye and paint. It's possible that such a thing exist, but very unlikely.

lol devil proof. I remember some plastic glasses that would cahnge color with hot/cold water.

Alaya · 2009-07-20, 13:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by maximilianjenus

lol devil proof. I remember some plastic glasses that would cahnge color with hot/cold water.

When you try to make an argument in Umineko, don't forget to include the Divil's Proof

The change of color resulting from the change of temperature is not uncommon. I haven't researched on the mechanism of this property yet, but normally the color of compounds is a result from transition of electron within the molecule (for science student: the result from transition of electrons between pi-orbitals in a long conjugated system (molecule that have more than 5 doubles bond connect together)).

But the result of temperature might change the density of the object, which is a possible source for color change. I guess a Physic student might give you a better explanation in this case.

rogerpepitone · 2009-07-20, 19:15

There's no point in having a humidity triggered paint for the garden storehouse; the circle wasn't there in episode 4.

IIRC, cobalt chloride changes color with humidity, but it's red / blue.

KnightHart · 2009-07-22, 03:40

dunno if it's already posted (and if it's a right place to post it)

but the seiyuu for the stakes had been confirmed

Lucifer: Yuka Saitou
Leviathan: Madoka Yonezawa
Satan: Youko Hikasa
Belphegor: Seiko Yoshida
Mammon: Ayano Niina
Beelzebub: Yuri Yamaoka
Asmodeus: Aki Toyosaki

...someone is watching too much K-on ._

izmosmolnar · 2009-07-22, 04:08

^ I think that's the source, that supports it too, and lastly that's the 2ch link.
--------
Why is Satan, my favorite stake being voiced by a newbie, who didn't have any other roles than one-dimensional moeblob role? :/

Lucifer: Yuka Saitou (No major roles at all in the past)
Satan: Youko Hikasa (Moeblob Mio in K-ON and that's the main roles she ever had)
Leviathan: Madoka Yonezawa (UI in K-ON, and that's the major roles she did)
Belphegor: Seiko Yoshida (No major roles at all in the past)
Mammon: Ayano Niina (for some incorrect reason Matsumoto on ANN) (Yukari Kamioka in Otoboku, Mako in Nerima Daikon Brothers)
Beelzebub: Yuri Yamaoka (As explained here by Natsuki, Yuri Yamaoka is a newcomer in the seiyuu world, freshly from the school, with no roles in the past at all)
Asmodeus: Aki Toyosaki (Yui from K-ON, Koyoi from Hatsukoi Limited, Su from Shugo Chara, Yoshino from Minami-Ke and many other roles)

Seems like Asmodeus' voice actress has the most past roles, yet IMO Asmodeus speaks the least among the Seven Sissies. If someone finds out how to write correctly or who exactly is Yuri Yamaoka ( 六女・ベルゼブブ　　：　山岡ゆり　さん ) I'll modify Beelzebub a bit later. Thanks again Natsuki.

Saerianne · 2009-07-22, 04:18

Hmm, now to just hear them.

Alaya · 2009-07-22, 04:50

Consider that Satan is not very active compare to other stakes, getting seiyuu who voice Mio is good enough for me.

I guess the most important stake is Mammon, so she needs to be voiced by very good seiyuu.

Westlo · 2009-07-22, 05:05

They should do a good job voicing them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alaya

I guess the most important stake is Mammon, so she needs to be voiced by very good seiyuu.

Not really.. pretty sure countless female seiyuu could do a good to decent job voicing her, Mammon's role is nowhere near as demanding as Beatrice.

Natsuki Hyuga · 2009-07-22, 05:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by izmosmolnar

Beelzebub: Yuri Yamaoka (I couldn't even find her)

Seems like Asmodeus' voice actress has the most past roles, yet IMO Asmodeus speaks the least among the Seven Sissies. If someone finds out how to write correctly or who exactly is Yuri Yamaoka ( 六女・ベルゼブブ　　：　山岡ゆり　さん ) I'll modify Beelzebub a bit later.

Yuri Yamaoka is a newbie from HolyPeak, so I can understand why you could not find her anywhere

(She just begin her career in this year after all)

Here is the source. According to said source, she is from "under supervision" group, so I guess you could say she is a trainee of sorts. That's why you still can't find her in the seiyuu page.

EDIT: And no, there is no mistaking Ayano Niina name into Ayano Matsumoto since 新名 cannot be read as Matsumoto. Niina is the correct pronounciation from many sources.

Alaya · 2009-07-22, 05:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Westlo

They should do a good job voicing them.

Not really.. pretty sure countless female seiyuu could do a good to decent job voicing her, Mammon's role is nowhere near as demanding as Beatrice.

Well, of course, Beatrice is the main antagonist of the serie. But Mammon has a big role in the EP 4, so she should voice by a good actor too. She might not need to be top notch but a newbie with no experience is not ok too.

izmosmolnar · 2009-07-22, 05:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alaya

Consider that Satan is not very active compare to other stakes, getting seiyuu who voice Mio is good enough for me.

Different strokes for different folks. (Without the intent to flame or argue) I for one don't think Mio's angry voice is even remotely close to the anger (=wrath) Satan used to represent. It's a bit too mild to the really angry, pissed off voice I used to imagine for her (maybe it's just me). Oh well, we see how it goes. It's not like her voice should be a significant issue.

Edit. thank you again Natsuki Hyuga

.

Westlo · 2009-07-22, 05:33

Honestly there's nothing demanding at all about Mammon's role. You miss my point in mentioning Beatrice, it's not that she is the main antagonist, it's that her character has so many different sides to it a seiyuu would have to be really talented to nail every aspect of her. Ohara's a fav of mine... waiting to see if she can..

Christen · 2009-07-22, 06:00

I'll hold my judgement for the seiyuus I know until I hear them. I already got surprised by the voice cast for Umineko, I won't be surprised if the casting for the stakes surprises me (a contradiction just there

).

momobunny · 2009-07-22, 10:46

Wow, 7 different seiyuu for each Sister. That's pretty awesome! Seems like my two favorites get seiyuu from K-On (Leviathan and Asmodeus). :3

MeoTwister5 · 2009-07-22, 11:00

Looking at the cast list, it's as if the main reason they got mostly newcomers and freshies is because they probably have lower fees. Except maybe Aki Toyosaki, voice-over for the Yui Hirasawa, goddess of rock.

Somehow I imagine that the voices for the Siestas will be anyone Ryukishi manages to pull off the train.

TsundereCake · 2009-07-22, 11:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by izmosmolnar

Different strokes for different folks. (Without the intent to flame or argue) I for one don't think Mio's angry voice is even remotely close to the anger (=wrath) Satan used to represent. It's a bit too mild to the really angry, pissed off voice I used to imagine for her (maybe it's just me). Oh well, we see how it goes. It's not like her voice should be a significant issue.

Edit. thank you again Natsuki Hyuga

.

And it's not as if "Mio" is playing Satan. Hikasa-san may be able to do a more wrath-ful voice

Thisguy · 2009-07-22, 11:29

http://www.famitsu.com/anime/news/1226062_1558.html

Famitsu's latest news has hit the shelf, which consists of info regarding VA for Stakes (although we already know by now) and more importantly, anime-Bernkastel's introduction.

Bern's VA has not disclosed yet, but I don't doubt that Tamura's gonna voice her; for she did the narration for Navigation CDs too.
Well... from the looks of her, she seems to have lost her PAD somewhere...

2009-07-19, 13:55	Link #1281
Nih Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Age: 38	Whoever the killer is, it seems they are bent on keeping Battler alive until the end (being the protagonist seems like a weak explanation). The reason might be related to his sin six years ago (since Beato said that's why people die). As such the killer cannot attack any people that are under Battler's supervision, otherwise the illusion of the witch will fall apart. Looking at it this way, we can assume that from the killer's point of view, Battler is the key that chooses the first 6 sacrifices, and then possibly the order of all the other murders. Now if we assume this is the case in all the games (again, Episode 3 is likely an exception in some way), then Natsuhi, Rosa, Eva and Kyrie could be taking their turns as accomplices, but I just don't like it because whoever is an accomplice needs a motive for it and likely knows something about the status of Kinzo's wealth and gold. As does the mastermind. The mastermind also needs to be related to Battler's sin. So, following this somewhat flimsy logic, why would Natsuhi fall in despair after Krauss shows her the golden ingot? Is she the mastermind or is it more likely that the mastermind is using her somehow? Perhaps she simply had a nervous breakdown and forced the servants out along with Maria because she suspected them all to be related to the killer. And that could be her blunder, because if they all simply stayed in that room until police arrived, they would have likely all survived. Last edited by Nih; 2009-07-19 at 16:49.

2009-07-19, 13:57	Link #1282
Kitsu The unlucky one Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Hiding	Well who would want to kill the children? The only slots who could be the accomlice are five "dead" people. Kanon, shannon, Krauss, Eva and Hideyoshi but all of them have someone important among the children. I once had a rather cliche theory which actually fitted a bit to much because you all forgot something a second person wanted the others to leave and that was Jessica. It's that damn Bonney&Clyde cliche. Spoiler for Theory: Kanon and jessica are the culprits. Jessica devolped a hatered against her family or what ever led her to this. kanon maybe had is own motive or just did what she wished for (he is furniture after all and seems to take a liking in her) and maybe if we look at the first circle you could interpret it that way. The circle breaks bonds and gives freedom. You can now look at their cliche situation. Dada! Another motive which is combined with the first circle! The first murders weren't carried out in random of course, the persons who deserved it the "most". The mother who slept soundly and made a nice impression on Jessica (the time she smiled and said she would give her the mirror) survived also she was given the charm by jessica. The blood on her door is made by either Kanon or Jessica to scare Natsuhi and make the impression of a witch. Rosa who beat her child gets killed. Krauss who supressed his wife and child gets killed. Gohda who annoyed and angered Kanon that day died as well. Kyrie and Rudolph...there are two possibities ... I go for the first one. They are at fault that Battler left the family...if they didn't marry Battler wouldn't have left (the connection to Battler's sin). Then there is Shannon...the girl who no one expected to be there. shit happens or so people say. The second twilight is easy as well. They died because they suspected and insulted the others (inculding the servants(and with that Kanon), jessica and maybe even because they attacked Natsuhi and Kanon dislike Eva) Then there art the next murders. kanon's death is of course fake...but that doesn't mean Nanjo is involved in a murder or mastermind or something. we know that all three, Kanon, Nanjo and Jessica were alone in the room..."treating" him. But in reality they talked him over about faking his death to find the real cuprit or something (or promised him money for his grandchild whatever) Kinzo's death is a little harder, there are two options...someoneelse burned his corpse because the hoped that everyone assumed it was a murder as well and then when Kanon found him he just staked Kinzo, or Kanon himself burned him somehow. The next deaths are easy as cake. Jessica was of course totally sad about Kanon#s death. And attacked Maria and so on. as soon as they were locked inside the study, Jessica put the envelope on the desk, Natushi is shocked..."Shit where does this come from! of course not from Jessica! she would never do something like that!!" Jessica's purpose in the study was to make sure a few really have to leave so Kanon can go all happy blood action without being shot by Natsuhi. Of course he didn't harmed Maria (who is a "dear" cousin of Jessica and had a bad childhood and was treated badly by Rosa) After playing a bit with faces Kanon calls the Study, to make them leave and do the next killing. Jessica's job is again to amke sure Natsuhi answers the call. Then it gets a little blurry. Maybe Natsuhi's killing wasn't planned by jessica but Kanon just wanted to shot her or jessica hated her mother compleatly (for reasons told in Ep 2, paying no attention to her daughter, only seeing the new heir in her) and wanted to spare her to the end. I think it's the former. After that I don't have a clue...because I don't what the heck happened after that and how they died and stuff. Maybe Kanon and Jessica just killed them because various motives (Battler leaving the family, George hitting on Shannon or just because they think it would be the good end for him and he would be reunited with Shannon, and Maria was killed out of pity) Or Kanon killed them (including Jessica and then later commited suicide in the boiler room) Jessica killed them (including kanon and putting him into the boiler room and then making something to get herself and the other cousins all smashed) etc. __________________ Thanks for the Signature, Vandakiara Last edited by Kitsu; 2009-07-22 at 13:13.

2009-07-22, 03:40	Link #1287
KnightHart The Traveler of the Book Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: beside my beloved Tokido-san	dunno if it's already posted (and if it's a right place to post it) but the seiyuu for the stakes had been confirmed Lucifer: Yuka Saitou Leviathan: Madoka Yonezawa Satan: Youko Hikasa Belphegor: Seiko Yoshida Mammon: Ayano Niina Beelzebub: Yuri Yamaoka Asmodeus: Aki Toyosaki ...someone is watching too much K-on ._ __________________ 「ゲームスタート!」

2009-07-22, 04:08	Link #1288
izmosmolnar At the end of this world Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Hungary, Europe Age: 39	^ I think that's the source, that supports it too, and lastly that's the 2ch link. -------- Why is Satan, my favorite stake being voiced by a newbie, who didn't have any other roles than one-dimensional moeblob role? :/ Lucifer: Yuka Saitou (No major roles at all in the past) Satan: Youko Hikasa (Moeblob Mio in K-ON and that's the main roles she ever had) Leviathan: Madoka Yonezawa (UI in K-ON, and that's the major roles she did) Belphegor: Seiko Yoshida (No major roles at all in the past) Mammon: Ayano Niina (for some incorrect reason Matsumoto on ANN) (Yukari Kamioka in Otoboku, Mako in Nerima Daikon Brothers) Beelzebub: Yuri Yamaoka (As explained here by Natsuki, Yuri Yamaoka is a newcomer in the seiyuu world, freshly from the school, with no roles in the past at all) Asmodeus: Aki Toyosaki (Yui from K-ON, Koyoi from Hatsukoi Limited, Su from Shugo Chara, Yoshino from Minami-Ke and many other roles) Seems like Asmodeus' voice actress has the most past roles, yet IMO Asmodeus speaks the least among the Seven Sissies. If someone finds out how to write correctly or who exactly is Yuri Yamaoka ( 六女・ベルゼブブ　　：　山岡ゆり　さん ) I'll modify Beelzebub a bit later. Thanks again Natsuki. __________________ Last edited by izmosmolnar; 2009-07-22 at 05:34. Reason: added them with links and the japanese source, updated Beelzebub

2009-07-22, 04:50	Link #1290
Alaya Counter Force Join Date: Nov 2007	Consider that Satan is not very active compare to other stakes, getting seiyuu who voice Mio is good enough for me. I guess the most important stake is Mammon, so she needs to be voiced by very good seiyuu. __________________ Fate/Zero: This was the tale of a man who, more than anyone else, believed in his ideals, and was driven to despair by them. Madoka: This was the tale of magical girls whose wishes are pure and by them are driven to despair.

2009-07-20, 09:04	Link #1283
Nih Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Age: 38	I think the mastermind has a double objective in mind: money and revenge. There's a high likelihood they hate the Ushiromiya family, children included. This hatred is probably related to Battler's sin somehow, but is not necessarily its origin. My only guess at this point is that it has something to do with Kyrie and Kasumi. Who else would be smart enough to commit a crime like this in the whole cast? But it's just a guess, Ange is considered to be an important piece because she provides us with insight into the future of Episode 3, which likely holds some clues to the tragedy on Rokkenjima (for example it shows who could potentially benefit from this tragedy). Even still, it's possible that the mastermind has yet to be revealed. Let's try putting ourselves in Ryukishi's shoes. We want to write a good crime novel, we're done with about half of it. Clearly we need to have dropped some important hints for the readers, but if the answer would become obvious from those hints alone, what would be the purpose for the answer arcs? I have faith in Ryukishi and I think he still has quite a few tricks up his sleeves. And yes, my opinion is biased because I like all the characters in Umineko and don't want any of them to be a culprit in the end. But that's of course Ryukishi's decision, so no matter the outcome, I'm sure I will enjoy the rest of the novel just as much if not more than I had up until this point Here's to a hope for a happy end :P

2009-07-20, 19:15	Link #1286
rogerpepitone Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008	There's no point in having a humidity triggered paint for the garden storehouse; the circle wasn't there in episode 4. IIRC, cobalt chloride changes color with humidity, but it's red / blue.

2009-07-22, 04:18	Link #1289
Saerianne cackle Join Date: Jan 2009 Age: 29	Hmm, now to just hear them.

2009-07-22, 05:33	Link #1295
Westlo Lets be reality Join Date: May 2007	Honestly there's nothing demanding at all about Mammon's role. You miss my point in mentioning Beatrice, it's not that she is the main antagonist, it's that her character has so many different sides to it a seiyuu would have to be really talented to nail every aspect of her. Ohara's a fav of mine... waiting to see if she can..

2009-07-22, 06:00	Link #1296
Christen Endless Nine Artist Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: In a certain tropical island Age: 38	I'll hold my judgement for the seiyuus I know until I hear them. I already got surprised by the voice cast for Umineko, I won't be surprised if the casting for the stakes surprises me (a contradiction just there ).

2009-07-22, 10:46	Link #1297
momobunny ◔ ◡ ◔ Artist Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: ImaginaryLand Age: 33	Wow, 7 different seiyuu for each Sister. That's pretty awesome! Seems like my two favorites get seiyuu from K-On (Leviathan and Asmodeus). :3 __________________

2009-07-22, 11:00	Link #1298
MeoTwister5 Komrades of Kitamura Kou Join Date: Jul 2004 Age: 39	Looking at the cast list, it's as if the main reason they got mostly newcomers and freshies is because they probably have lower fees. Except maybe Aki Toyosaki, voice-over for the Yui Hirasawa, goddess of rock. Somehow I imagine that the voices for the Siestas will be anyone Ryukishi manages to pull off the train. __________________ Medical Student vs. Anime Last Exile - Fam the Silver Wing -

2009-07-22, 11:29	Link #1300
Thisguy Negikamo Join Date: Sep 2006	http://www.famitsu.com/anime/news/1226062_1558.html Famitsu's latest news has hit the shelf, which consists of info regarding VA for Stakes (although we already know by now) and more importantly, anime-Bernkastel's introduction. Bern's VA has not disclosed yet, but I don't doubt that Tamura's gonna voice her; for she did the narration for Navigation CDs too. Well... from the looks of her, she seems to have lost her PAD somewhere...