Madoka Magica - Spoilers & Speculation

[Deconstructor]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

We have yet to see how the final timeline ends (presuming we get one).

So whether or not it's good for Homura to reverse time will be determined by how that ultimately plays out.

I am suggesting that playing it safe by killing off the two remaining characters is better than risking it on the possibility of a happy ending. With what we know, in order for the world to be saved, Madoka must die. In order for Madoka to die, Homura must die. QED, unless some unforeseen solution appears.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

The only way you're right about Mami's choice, imo, is if the final timeline has an end that's worse than:

1. Mami, Madoka, Homura, Kyoko, Syaka all die.

2. The city gets destroyed by Walpurigs Night.

Now, we might get such a total "bad end", but until/unless we do, it remains to be seen if Homura's time reversals will ultimately be beneficial, or negative.

And the bad end is Madoka turning into a witch. We have seen it happen before. Homura wants to find a way out of the maze, but the only way out seems to be death. Saying that something unpredictable might happen works both ways; if you say that Homura will find a solution to the system, I can claim that the unseen Puella Magi fly out of the sky and save the day. Really, there is little evidence to support both claims. For now, all I can say is that killing Madoka (and Homura, by extension) is the safest route for the world's survival.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Based on what we've seen so far in this anime, I disagree. In timeline after timeline, Madoka has consistently shown a willingness to do what is in the best interest of humanity, even if it she has to sacrifice her life for that. If there's one person in this anime that I'd trust to be willing to sacrifice herself for the greater good, it's Madoka.

Homura, granted, has had her lapses that are worrisome.

Hey, the future is unpredictable.

Madoka might grow up to be the tyrant of her own city, or choose to be a Mother Teresa instead. Either way, if Madoka makes the contract, then she will turn into a witch unless she dies. For some reason, should Madoka want to live, then the world is doomed.

Currently, Madoka is willing to die for Earth. But the future is unpredictable - something may happen that insipires Madoka to value her own life more. Let's see... a dying Homura telling Madoka to live on with her final breath?

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Timeline 1 alone shows this. In Timeline 1, he clearly never bothered to contract with Sayaka (or even with Homura, prior to Walpurgis Night appearing).

Personally, I'm now inclined to think that Kyubey's real aim is Madoka, and the other girls are mere pawns to him, which he moves around in attempts to get Madoka (and probably to get Madoka to become a witch, too).

Logically, if Kyubey wants to improve the universe's entropy, then he should contract as many girls as he can. However, as the population dynamics page on the wiki suggests, he has a upper limit. Go too far, and the Earth runs out of young little girls. Therefore, it is reasonable for Kyubey to contract only the minimum amount of girls he deems necessary, in order to preserve the balance between witch and Puella Magi. Of course, if Sayaka is practically walking up to Kyubey's doorstep, then he will accept.

You seem to be critical of Kyubey's motives - you imply that he lies about the entropy concept. I assume Kyubey has reasons to tell the truth... of course, those reasons are kept secret from Madoka and company.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

1. She didn't even think twice about it. She made a rash snap decision without thinking things through at all. In real life, that sort of behavior causes disasters, not prevents them.

2. She just started killing people. Without getting anybody's consent. Look, even in a crisis situation, it's ideal to keep a calmer head than this.

1. Well, Sayaka thought a lot about helping Kyosuke. She finally made the wish, and look what happened. Kyoko and Sayaka both died in a suicide bombing. The amount of time one puts into a decision has no effect on how bad the decision is, but usually thinking about it leads to the right choice.

2. Ah, but Mami wanted to override the consent of her peers. She wanted to take the easy way out by killing everyone. Following her emotions may be the best course of action.

[Kazu-kun]

Finally, I read every piece of spoiler available. Considering all that, it stand to reason Homura is going to die, and Madoka, well, if she makes a wish, she'll become a MG, and so she'll die or become a witch. There are no mysteries there, right?

But I don't think so. I will go ahead and make my prediction. Madoka is going to make a contract, wish for something, and yet, she won't become MG.

But how can that be possible? Well, I don't really know. I have a few theories, but I think there's still some really important piece of information we're lacking, a key element that will be revealed in episode 11 or maybe even 12. We'll see.

As for Homura... if she dies fighting Walpurgis, then that's it, but if she becomes a witch, then I have a feeling she's going to make it alive at the end, and as a normal (non-magical) girl to boot.

[MrSandman]

If there was even one perdiction about the conclusion that I would make at this juncture.....I get the odd feeling that that one lesson Madoka's mother told her might play a role in it if things come entirely down to Madoka's choice.

When doing something right doesn't work....you gotta do something wrong.

[Marina2]

Not sure if someone said this before, but if the important things are:

1. Prevent the death of Madoka
2. Prevent Madoka from turning into the witch

Why not just wait until Walpurigs Night then use Madoka's wish to destroy it? That way they will not have to fight at all. Yes, Madoka will become the MG but she won't die or turn into the witch since she doesn't fight or use her energy.

There is no way to tell that QB will allow this wish or not ,but it's worth trying. (Well, if Houmura can accept this idea.) This is not really happy ending too.

[Snork]

Logically, if Kyubey wants to improve the universe's entropy, then he should contract as many girls as he can. However, as the population dynamics page on the wiki suggests, he has a upper limit. Go too far, and the Earth runs out of young little girls. Therefore, it is reasonable for Kyubey to contract only the minimum amount of girls he deems necessary, in order to preserve the balance between witch and Puella Magi. Of course, if Sayaka is practically walking up to Kyubey's doorstep, then he will accept.

Let's not forget that the amount of Madoka's conversion energy is enough to fill up the whole quota for Earth (as shown in timeline 4). If Kyuubey senses and estimates it, then ever since finding Madoka he may have made her the primary target. As long as Madoka is a Puella Magi and on her way to witch-hood, he doesn't really need others. Come to think of it, this assumption makes the WHOLE Sayaka arc in timeline 5 look like his complex gambit...
Although I'm still wondering about Sayaka's case in timeline three. Was it the "Lich" issue again? Hardly, since the girls had teamed up already, and the truth revealed to everyone would have probably made Mami snap back then. We don't even know if Sayaka's wish was related to Kamijou. Of course, the reality may be bitterly prosaic - for someone like Sayaka, prone to rush into the fight headlong, accidentally overclocking the Soul Gem's resources would be a significant possibility... >_<

1. Well, Sayaka thought a lot about helping Kyosuke. She finally made the wish, and look what happened. Kyoko and Sayaka both died in a suicide bombing. The amount of time one puts into a decision has no effect on how bad the decision is, but usually thinking about it leads to the right choice.

+1. Of all the contractors we've seen, she seems to have been the most serious about all this wishmaking stuff (although I can't quite analyse Kyouko's case for comparison).
As to the advice Madoka got from her mother... sigh, the most bitter thing is that Madoka's actions following this advice set a breakpoint for Sayaka. That doesn't underestimate the meaning of that action (uncovering a whole layer of QB system), neither it guarantees Sayak would not get screwed otherwise... But it's just as bitter a notion as many fridge horror points of this show are...

Not sure if someone said this before, but if the important things are:

1. Prevent the death of Madoka
2. Prevent Madoka from becoming the witch

Why not just wait until Walpurigs Night then use Madoka's wish to destroy it? That way they will not have to fight at all. Yes, Madoka will become the MG but she won't die or turn into the witch since she doen't fight or use her energy.

There is no way to tell if QB will allow this wish ,but it's worth trying. (Well, if Houmura can accept this idea.)

Homura won't accept it unless Madoka accepts living as a Puella Magi after it all. I'll say it again, Madoka's predicament is about having to become a time bomb for her own world. Even if she successfully avoids tainting her Soul Gem and dedicates her life to fighting witches, it will be filled by sense of impending doom rather than the feeling of being useful to people. How long will it take her to snap under this pressure? She may as well choose to end her life right away, and Homura will promptly restart the timeline.
Honestly, I almost wish for Madoka to try something like "I want an incorruptible Soul Gem". That might REALLY answer if Kyuubey has any right to refuse wishes - THIS one would be contrary to all he planned...

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Deconstructor

I am suggesting that playing it safe by killing off the two remaining characters is better than risking it on the possibility of a happy ending.

Then I disagree with you on this point.

With what we know, in order for the world to be saved, Madoka must die.

That's not correct. If Madoka is prevented from contracting with Kyubey in a current or future timeline, the world is saved from Witch Madoka.

Right now, as we speak, Homura is close to achieving exactly that.

We have seen it happen before. Homura wants to find a way out of the maze, but the only way out seems to be death.

But there are other ways out. It's quite clear:

1. Prevent Madoka from becoming a Magical Girl.

2. Defeat Walpurgis Night.

It's a tricky combo to pull off, but it's not theoretically impossible, so it's certainly worth attempting if you have seemingly limitless time loops to work with as Homura does.

Saying that something unpredictable might happen works both ways;

I'm not saying that "something unpredictable" might happen. I'm saying that Homura might succeed in preventing Madoka from contracting with Kyubey, and also find a way in defeating Walpurgis Night.

That's hardly "unpredictable". That's hardly something entirely out of left field. It's a possible solution right there, obvious in Homura's actions and goals.

if you say that Homura will find a solution to the system, I can claim that the unseen Puella Magi fly out of the sky and save the day.

I'm claiming that Homura may achieve her goals

Really, there is little evidence to support both claims.

There's plenty of evidence to support the idea that Homura may achieve her goals. A slight change or two in the current Timeline and we'd be well on the way to Homura achieving her goals. Even as is, she has a chance.

For now, all I can say is that killing Madoka (and Homura, by extension) is the safest route for the world's survival.

That approach needlessly sacrifices Madoka's city, if it's done before Walpurgis Night appears, in either of the timelines.

Hey, the future is unpredictable.

Even if so, some things are more out in left field than others. Counting on the city to be saved by magical girls that have been nowhere to be seen through out this entire anime is most definitely something way out in left field.

Madoka might grow up to be the tyrant of her own city, or choose to be a Mother Teresa instead.

There's way, way more evidence to suggest something closer to the latter rather than the former.

Either way, if Madoka makes the contract, then she will turn into a witch unless she dies.

Probably.

For some reason, should Madoka want to live, then the world is doomed.

Well, again, Madoka has shown a consistent willingness to sacrifice herself for the greater good, in timeline after timeline after timeline. I strongly doubt that this is going to change.

Currently, Madoka is willing to die for Earth. But the future is unpredictable - something may happen that insipires Madoka to value her own life more. Let's see... a dying Homura telling Madoka to live on with her final breath?

Well, so far in this timeline, Madoka isn't that close to Homura. I doubt that Madoka would put Homura ahead of her own family.

Logically, if Kyubey wants to improve the universe's entropy, then he should contract as many girls as he can.

Why? If he gets all the energy he needs from Madoka alone, why waste his time contracting a bunch of girls that have nothing to do with Madoka?

In any event, he doesn't appear to be contracting with girls left, right, and center.

In the first timeline, he didn't even bother with Sayaka.

Therefore, it is reasonable for Kyubey to contract only the minimum amount of girls he deems necessary,

Right. And if Madoka alone can provide him with all the energy he needs, then it makes sense for him to key in on her, and to get other girls to contract with him if them doing so can help serve his purpose of eventually getting Madoka.

You seem to be critical of Kyubey's motives - you imply that he lies about the entropy concept.

I don't think he's lying here. But I also see no visual evidence to suggest that Kyubey is contracting with every girl he can.

1. Well, Sayaka thought a lot about helping Kyosuke. She finally made the wish, and look what happened. Kyoko and Sayaka both died in a suicide bombing. The amount of time one puts into a decision has no effect on how bad the decision is, but usually thinking about it leads to the right choice.

We're talking about a general principle that exists outside of this anime.

We shouldn't make important decisions with out at least thinking things through first. Mami clearly didn't think things through at all when it came to her choice to kill Kyoko, and then attempt to kill everybody else as well.

Thinking things through doesn't guarantee that the right decision is made, of course, but it does mean that a decision will take all the important known details into account, hence improving its chance of being a good decision.

In Mami's case, she may have actually forgot about the important known detail of "Walpurgis Night still needs to be dealt with". In the heat of the moment, she may have forgot that.

2. Ah, but Mami wanted to override the consent of her peers. She wanted to take the easy way out by killing everyone. Following her emotions may be the best course of action.

We'll see.

It'll depend on how this anime ends.

[Angelmonster]

So I just wanted to throw this bit of speculation out there before this series ends.

Walpurgisnacht=Witch form of Homura. Walpurgisnacht can go through time, this is the only constant in all of the timelines we have seen with Homura. my theory is eventually Homura goes witch and ransforms into Walpurgisnacht, goes back in time with its ability and begins this whole problem with entropy.

I could be totally wrong, this is just a thought with no theory besides Walpurgisnact uses a bunch of gears that reminds me of Homura's shiled. It is the only constant in all of the timelines and that the animators are intentionally hiding Walpurishnacht's full form from us (we only everu see the flying gears/magic circle form from far away, never up close. The black and white area seen in the first episode reminds me of Homura's current attitude).

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Angelmonster

ransforms into Walpurgisnacht, goes back in time with its ability and begins this whole problem with entropy.

Entropy is a property of thermodynamics, it's a natural law of the universe. It's not a problem created by a witch, be it Walpurgis or whoever.

[hyperborealis]

We've discussed the concept of balance in Madoka Magica before, and had a number of arguments about what it means and its role in the story. I thought I'd take a moment and look at some of the places where this idea comes up, to see if I could figure out why the writers keep coming back to it.

Let's start with what Sayaka has to say about balance. Her very last words before she becomes a witch are: "The balance of hope and despair is always zero. / You [ie Kyoko] said so yourself. / I understand what you meant now. / I've saved plenty of people. / But in exchange, resentment and pain took root in my heart. / I'm even hurting my dearest friend now. [...] / As much as I wished for the happiness of one... / Someone else must be equally cursed. / That's how the story of a magical girl goes... / I've been such a fool."

What is Sayaka saying? She says that all the good she does must be balanced by a corresponding suffering, so that the net of the two is exactly "zero." It is as if hope and despair were conserved natural quantities, like mass and energy, such that any gain in one is always offset by the loss in the other. In doing good, she brings about inevitably a corresponding and equivalent evil, so that in the end, there is never a gain, but only ever a net of nothing.

Sayaka does not say, but implies, that while hope and happiness accrue to those the MG helps, the corresponding curse, the resentment and pain, is born by the magical girl herself. She saves others, but incurs a corresponding degree of suffering. She wishes for Kyosuke's happiness, but finds herself equally cursed. Sayaka offers us a vision of the Magical Girl as a suffering angel, who brings hope and happiness to others, and bears herself the corresponding measures of resentment and pain.

We can see that Sayaka's words are motivated by her own experience. She speaks about her own success in saving people, and the consequences of that for her own heart. We know when she talks about wishing for the "happiness of one," she is remembering the contract she made with QB on Kyoksuke's behalf. But Sayaka's language is general in scope. It rises to a description of reality as a whole, and the condition of magical girls within that world. "That's how the story of a magical girl goes:" what is true for her holds for magical girls in general.

It may be that Sayaka's words are simply a demonstration of the acute despair that in a moment will push her over the edge so that she loses her humanity and becomes a witch. In that way we can discount her words. The other possibility is that her extreme suffering has instead allowed her to penetrate the easy illusions and self-deceptions of the comfortable and the complacent, to see a deep truth only visible from her extreme perspective.

At this point, I don't know how this question will resolve itself. It can only be answered by comparing Sayaka's words with the similar statements of other characters, to see if we can detect an authorial comment on the issue one way or the other.

Let me break here, to see if anyone wants to comment. The next installment will shift to Kyoko, to the words Sayaka refers to above, "Miracles aren't free. / When you wish for hope, it creates an equivalent despair. / Happiness evens out and the world stays in balance." Then I want to cover a number of Homura's pronouncements, and finally conclude with looking at what Madoka's mother has to say that late-night conversation with Madoka in Episode 6. I can only echo and reinforce what other people have said: this conversation is without question the key to the whole series. Everything that happens in the anime is a commentary and an illustration upon what Kaname-sama says in that episode.

[Shadow5YA]

There is no such thing as happiness without despair, because it is impossible for a person to know how happiness feels without despair. If people were "happy" all the time, they would take the feeling for granted. It is only because of life's ups and downs that emotions are identifiable.

The happiness granted from the miracle of a wish is like a drug, where the Puella Magi is high on euphoria. Think of how excited Homura was in the second timeline when she approached Madoka in class. When that happiness is no longer fresh and she learns of the side effects called consequences, they feel just as extremely disappointed.


Kaname Junko's advice to Madoka, to do wrong against Sayaka who does right, has similar implications. In a debate, a person's argument cannot be solid until the opposing viewpoint is addressed properly. Against Sayaka who believes she is "right," someone has to oppose her and be "wrong" in order for Sayaka to understand her position. This is the dynamic that Sayaka shares with Kyoko: one is wrong, the other is right. They contrasted each other, which is what allows Sayaka to realize that she is a fool (albeit too late) and Kyoko to realize that her principle of selfishness is not sound for her. As Kyoko initially despaired with her selfish principle, Sayaka had her hope and bravado, even when she was losing. As Sayaka began to despair, Kyoko began to help others again.
Homura could also share this dynamic with Madoka. In order for Madoka to have a peaceful future, Homura has to tread in the darker, violent world of Puella Magi and does all the dirty work, like killing Witches she knows that were once human, and seeing others die.

[ThereminVox]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

Kaname Junko's advice to Madoka, to do wrong against Sayaka who does right, has similar implications. In a debate, a person's argument cannot be solid until the opposing viewpoint is addressed properly. Against Sayaka who believes she is "right," someone has to oppose her and be "wrong" in order for Sayaka to understand her position.

Sorry to topic-jump from your good observations, but this reminded me about Junko's statement that sometimes you have to make a mistake for someone else. With episodes 8-9 now in the can, would it be accurate to say that Sayaka made the mistake of contracting in Madoka's stead? It would make Junko's advice even more eerily prescient.

[Snork]

So I just wanted to throw this bit of speculation out there before this series ends.

Walpurgisnacht=Witch form of Homura. Walpurgisnacht can go through time, this is the only constant in all of the timelines we have seen with Homura. my theory is eventually Homura goes witch and ransforms into Walpurgisnacht, goes back in time with its ability and begins this whole problem with entropy.

I could be totally wrong, this is just a thought with no theory besides Walpurgisnact uses a bunch of gears that reminds me of Homura's shiled. It is the only constant in all of the timelines and that the animators are intentionally hiding Walpurishnacht's full form from us (we only everu see the flying gears/magic circle form from far away, never up close. The black and white area seen in the first episode reminds me of Homura's current attitude).

IMHO this would require elaborate scripting... but if they manage to pull it off, this will be a solid twist, albeit a bitterly tragic one. And it would effectively end the whole WN issue: say, Homura defeats WN, but overclocks her Soul Gem and goes witch, then the new-born Walpurgis goes back in time - and we have a literal loop in balance. Like going back to time and retrieveing a lost item that you'll appear to have lost EXACTLY because your future self retrieved it. Natsu no Arashi played with it. And since WN is out of the CURRENT timeline, there is no threat anymore.

would it be accurate to say that Sayaka made the mistake of contracting in Madoka's stead?

You have a point, although the "in Madoka's stead" part is debatable - Sayaka followed her own wish, not the need to keep Madoka uninvolved. Still, her fate played the main part in making Madoka aware of what being a magical girl is really about in this world.

[Angelmonster]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Entropy is a property of thermodynamics, it's a natural law of the universe. It's not a problem created by a witch, be it Walpurgis or whoever.

She begins the problem with entropy that is affecting the entire universe (If QB is telling the whole truth about this) that QB is trying to fix. Possibly the problem begins because Walpurgis is traveling through time (remember this is not the first time Walpurgis has appeared on Earth is it seems to be a witch most Magical Girls know about).

Also look up the theory of "Arrow of Time", this is a snippit from Wiki.

As one goes "forward" in time, the second law of thermodynamics says, the entropy of an isolated system will increase. Hence, from one perspective, entropy measurement is a way of distinguishing the past from the future. However in thermodynamic systems that are not closed, entropy can decrease with time: many systems, including living systems, reduce local entropy at the expense of an environmental increase, resulting in a net increase in entropy. Examples of such systems and phenomena include the formation of certain crystals, the workings of a refrigerator and living organisms.

Kind of interesting...Homura time travels, Madoka is a constant that uses a bow. The only other constant is Walpurgis.

Speaking about entropy there is anothe rinteresting theory regarding entropy and time.

In 1867, James Clerk Maxwell introduced a now-famous thought experiment that highlighted the contrast between the statistical nature of entropy and the deterministic nature of the underlying physical processes. This experiment, known as Maxwell's demon, consists of a hypothetical "demon" that guards a trapdoor between two containers filled with gases at equal temperatures. By allowing fast molecules through the trapdoor in only one direction and only slow molecules in the other direction, the demon raises the temperature of one gas and lowers the temperature of the other, apparently violating the Second Law.

Could this be what QB is doing? Using Magical Girl energy to allow "slow molecules" into our universe and shaving the "faster molecules" somewhere else? Just some food for thought :-D

[hyperborealis]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

There is no such thing as happiness without despair, because it is impossible for a person to know how happiness feels without despair. If people were "happy" all the time, they would take the feeling for granted. It is only because of life's ups and downs that emotions are identifiable.

The happiness granted from the miracle of a wish is like a drug, where the Puella Magi is high on euphoria. Think of how excited Homura was in the second timeline when she approached Madoka in class. When that happiness is no longer fresh and she learns of the side effects called consequences, they feel just as extremely disappointed.

Very true. Perception requires contrast to operate, and experience of one thing leads to the possibility of experiencing its opposite.

But isn't Sayaka saying something more, about how her actions affect the world, that the world itself works to maintain a cosmic balance? This is where we get into the issue of karma that you and Triple R, and myself and Solace and Sol Falling, and no doubt others, have all gone around and around about.

Looking again at Sayaka's words, I notice she makes no distinction between psychological experiences and actual actions and events. "I saved plenty of people"--actions in the real world. "But in exchange, resentment and pain took root in my own heart"--internal psychological change. "The happiness of one"--at once a real world effect and the psychological experience it produces. "Someone else must be equally cursed"--matching but opposite combination of effect and experience. How one feels seems to be a part of the way the world is, so that our usual rationalist categories of inside / outside, perception / reality don't seem to apply here.

What is key, I think, is that there is an exchange between among these psychological experiences, actions, and events, an exchange that cumulatively ensures that in the cosmic accounting the sum of all psychological experiences, actions, and events is always zero.

I don't think we can get around it. Sayaka is talking about how the world works, and is asserting there is a grand karmic order that precisely balances hope and despair. She is saying that the world of the magical girl falls within and exemplifies this karmic order.

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

Kaname Junko's advice to Madoka, to do wrong against Sayaka who does right, has similar implications. In a debate, a person's argument cannot be solid until the opposing viewpoint is addressed properly. Against Sayaka who believes she is "right," someone has to oppose her and be "wrong" in order for Sayaka to understand her position. This is the dynamic that Sayaka shares with Kyoko: one is wrong, the other is right. They contrasted each other, which is what allows Sayaka to realize that she is a fool (albeit too late) and Kyoko to realize that her principle of selfishness is not sound for her. As Kyoko initially despaired with her selfish principle, Sayaka had her hope and bravado, even when she was losing. As Sayaka began to despair, Kyoko began to help others again.

Homura could also share this dynamic with Madoka. In order for Madoka to have a peaceful future, Homura has to tread in the darker, violent world of Puella Magi and does all the dirty work, like killing Witches she knows that were once human, and seeing others die.

This is just so brilliant. I think you are absolutely right about the dynamic between Sayaka and Kyoko. When Sayaka talks about how she has been a fool, she is as you say harkening back to Kyoko's initial skepticism; when Kyoko finally overcomes her selfishness, it is due to the happy influence of Sayaka's example: "When I thought about it, I realized that I became a Puella Magi because I love those stories [ie. where love and courage win, magical girl fairy tales]. / Even though I totally forgot about it, / Sayaka reminded me of it." Each girl supplies a contrast to each other which allows them to see beyond their own mistakes.

But where does this leave Sayaka and Kyoko in the end? Do they exchange mistakes: Sayaka gets Kyoko's cynicism, and Kyoko gets Sayaka's naivete? Do they die to illustrate the cosmic balance: Kyoko's redemption matched against Sayaka's damnation? Kaname Junko was giving advice on how to help your friend--how are they helped? They're dead!

I have to think there's more to the story, and Kaname Junko's words will be confirmed when we see what happened to both Sayaka and Kyoko after the Big White Flash...

Originally Posted by ThereminVox

Sorry to topic-jump from your good observations, but this reminded me about Junko's statement that sometimes you have to make a mistake for someone else. With episodes 8-9 now in the can, would it be accurate to say that Sayaka made the mistake of contracting in Madoka's stead? It would make Junko's advice even more eerily prescient.

Wow. Are you saying Sayaka in fact is the friend who is making the mistake for Madoka, instead of the other way around? In which case Madoka is doing "the right thing" by choosing to stay ordinary?

At first Sayaka justifies her decision to become a MG on the fact that since she does so, Madoka doesn't need to. But then later, when Sayaka is much farther down the road to despair, she blames Madoka for not having become a MG, saying that had Madoka fulfilled her outsize potential as a MG, Sayaka would not have needed to become a MG at all: "I'm like this because even though you could do anything you're doing nothing."

Sayaka's bitter complaint at the end does really suggest your point. Maybe Sayaka's despair and demise is a way of bringing home to Madoka that she, and not Sayaka, is the one who has the need to be in the right.

How would you say, though, that Madoka is acting out of the need to be right? Is it by going along with Homura's program, and staying out of the MG game? The idea that one could be pure, that one can stay outside the messiness and the heartbreak and the risks of life--perhaps that is in fact Madoka's being "in the right," which she enjoys at the cost of not only Sayaka but also Homura's immense suffering.

Wow. You and Shadow5YA are making my head hurt.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Angelmonster

She begins the problem with entropy that is affecting the entire universe (If QB is telling the whole truth about this) that QB is trying to fix. Possibly the problem begins because Walpurgis is traveling through time (remember this is not the first time Walpurgis has appeared on Earth is it seems to be a witch most Magical Girls know about).

Going by QB's explanation to Madoka, he's just trying to prevent dead heat, which is a natural process of the universe.

Originally Posted by Angelmonster

Also look up the theory of "Arrow of Time", this is a snippit from Wiki. Kind of interesting...Homura time travels, Madoka is a constant that uses a bow. The only other constant is Walpurgis. Speaking about entropy there is anothe rinteresting theory regarding entropy and time.

That only applies if you go forward into the future... then of course, entropy increases. But if Walpurgis is Homura, it's going back to the past, not the future. Therefore entropy doesn't increase. If anything, it decreases.

Also, keep in mind that as long as Homura's time loop is in place, QB's job is meaningless, since entropy is stagnant (due to the temporal loop), and everything he does is undone anyway.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by hyperborealis

How would you say, though, that Madoka is acting out of the need to be right? Is it by going along with Homura's program, and staying out of the MG game? The idea that one could be pure, that one can stay outside the messiness and the heartbreak and the risks of life--perhaps that is in fact Madoka's being "in the right," which she enjoys at the cost of not only Sayaka but also Homura's immense suffering.

I don't think so. Madoka was willing to go MG no once, but twice for Sayaka's sake. She clearly doesn't enjoy being unable to "help", as she called it. In fact, I'll go ahead and say the only reason QB hasn't given up on her yet is because he knows that even after all she's learned about the MG system, deep down, she still longs to be MG. This is made clear by her little chat with Kyoko in episode 9.

It's not Madoka herself but others' intervention what prevents her from becoming MG. IMO, Madoka will finally grow up as a character when she gets the courage to give QB the finger on her own. Will this resolve everything? Probably not. But I got the feeling that's where the series is going.

[Angelmonster]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Going by QB's explanation to Madoka, he's just trying to prevent dead heat, which is a natural process of the universe.



That only applies if you go forward into the future... then of course, entropy increases. But if Walpurgis is Homura, it's going back to the past, not the future. Therefore entropy doesn't increase. If anything, it decreases.

Also, keep in mind that as long as Homura's time loop is in place, QB's job is meaningless, since entropy is stagnant (due to the temporal loop), and everything he does is undone anyway.

Exactly, thus this all began with Homura becoming a Witch in the future. It seems with every loop she has become stronger in her power since she started off not having an attack power but now does. Thus she could become a very strong witch and with her time power she become a witch, travels through time gaining power until she becomes Walpurgis and starts the problems with Entropy.

I dunno, it would just be an interesting way to end this series. Homura is the one trying to prevent Madoka form turning into a witch and each time, if she is Walpurgis, is is making it happen

[hyperborealis]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

I don't think so. Madoka was willing to go MG no once, but twice for Sayaka's sake. She clearly doesn't enjoy being unable to "help", as she called it. In fact, I'll go ahead and say the only reason QB hasn't given up on her yet is because he knows that even after all she's learned about the MG system, deep down, she still longs to be MG.

It's not so much that she longs to be a MG, but that she always wants to do the right thing. QB is preying on her idealism. Remember his pitch to her in the very beginning, in her dream memory of the fight with WN of timeline four: "It's over once you give up. / But you can change your destiny. The destruction and grief are inevitable. You just need to change it all. / You possess the power to do it."

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

This is made clear by her little chat with Kyoko in episode 9.

The question is, what is the right thing for Madoka? Is it to stay out, or to get in? The chat with Kyoko goes both ways. On the one hand, Madoka is "someone who spends every day surrounded by a happy family, / who has such a convenient life," whom Kyoko would "beat to a pulp" if she became a Magical Girl. On the other hand, "only those who have no choice should put their lives on the line," and Kyoko can envisage "there might come a time when you [ie Madoka, will] have to fight no matter what."

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

It's not Madoka herself but others' intervention what prevents her from becoming MG.

Cue my favorite moment in the series so far, when Homura turns QB into Swiss cheese.

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

IMO, Madoka will finally grow up as a character when she gets the courage to give QB the finger on her own. Will this resolve everything? Probably not. But I got the feeling that's where the series is going.

I think you are right that Madoka will have to make her own decision. Really, this is a novel, if you will, about how Madoka grows up, becomes an adult, takes responsibility for her own life. That is really the point of Kaname Junko's conversation with her daughter: "Hurry and grow up, then!"

But what that decision is, I don't yet know. QB may be tempting her to do the right thing, after all. By protecting her Homura may be keeping her from doing the right thing too. Or vice versa. Madoka's indecision and subsequent doubts about herself are not just expressions of her own inadequacy--they speak to the intrinsic difficulty of living in the real world, which is complex and messy. The right thing is not always obvious. Sometimes it is indistinguishable from making a mistake. Isn't that the reason Kaname Junko gives to Madoka for her drinking? So we just don't know yet, I don't think. We can't be sure that staying out is the correct path.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by hyperborealis

It's not so much that she longs to be a MG, but that she always wants to do the right thing. QB is preying on her idealism. Remember his pitch to her in the very beginning, in her dream memory of the fight with WN of timeline four: "It's over once you give up. / But you can change your destiny. The destruction and grief are inevitable. You just need to change it all. / You possess the power to do it."

The thing is that her idealism and need to do the right thing are rooted in her feelings of inadequacy. That's why she always remember this every time she's up to take a big decision, like in episode 8, and also in episode 3. She can put her life on the line for someone else' sake so easily because she thinks she's worth nothing, so everyone else' life is infinitely more important than hers in her mind.

Can a sacrifice that comes from such misguided mindset be called the "right thing"? Is it the right thing for Madoka, at least? I personally don't think so.

[hyperborealis]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

The thing is that her idealism and need to do the right thing are rooted in her feelings of inadequacy. That's why she always remember this every time she's up to take a big decision, like in episode 8, and also in episode 3. She can put her life on the line for someone else' sake so easily because she thinks she's worth nothing, so everyone else' life is infinitely more important than hers in her mind.

Can a sacrifice that comes from such misguided mindset be called the "right thing"? Is it the right thing for Madoka, at least? I personally don't think so.

You make a very good point. Madoka is always saying things like "I'm pretty lame and I have no special talents. / I'd be satisfied if I could become a cool girl like Mami" (Episode 3). And Homura does think that Madoka is always throwing her life away for others for the reason you cite: "Why...Why must you always sacrifice yourself? / Don't throw yourself away thinking you're useless or your life's meaningless!" (Episode 8).

Whether sacrificing herself will be the right thing or not will depend on the act's effects, not its motives. Conversely, should Madoka stay our of the game, the fact that such a decision saves her from acting out of a "misguided mindset" will not mean much if it leads to the destruction of Mitakihara city by WN.

Insisting on only acting out of pure motives--wouldn't that itself be a form of insisting on being in the right? which Sayaka's decision to become a MG, with all its notably mixed motives, precisely illuminates? So I think you are really making ThereminVox's point after all.