Behind The Nihon Review and a Case Study on Blogging Longevity

[Infinite Zenith]

At its apex, Behind The Nihon Review was one of the most well-heeded blogs in the community; the blog's mission had been to provide insightful, fair and comprehensive discussions on anime, and with a large team of authors producing regular content, Behind The Nihon Review rose in prominence, becoming perceived as being comparable to Anime News Network in terms of reputation. However, this was not to last. It began with their 3D tag cloud plugin failing, followed swiftly by a steadily decreasing comment count, and by the mid-2010s, the blog had largely become inactive, posting only about seasonal thoughts semi-annually and "power rankings", a series where a series' performance was compared as a season progressed. These articles were a far cry from the insightful and comprehensive discussions the blog had stated would form the bulk of their discussion. In the quiet of Behind the Nihon Review's own forum, remaining members of Behind The Nihon Review's writing staff lamented this decline, wondering why the admin of the site, Sorrow-kun, couldn't just transfer admin acccess over to someone who was willing to maintain the site. One of the team members suggested that the reason for this decline was because of shifting trends in anime discussion, that fans were increasingly of a "instant gratification" mindset and that the dense analysis at Behind The Nihon Review hadn't kept up with the fact that people's attention spans were supposedly shorter, unwilling to read lengthier, thought-provoking content that challenged their world view (they had experimented with podcasts, but this proved unsuccessful).

These claims are untrue: anime blogging is still very much alive and well: WordPress bloggers are still very much active, and speaking from personal experience, my own blog receives the same traffic that Behind The Nihon Review did at the height of their popularity. Despite the rise of Twitter and Reddit reactions, and YouTube review channels, blogging remains a steady means of publishing one's thoughts and engaging with the community. The problem that Behind The Nihon Review encountered has nothing to do with the format of their content, as their foray into podcasting demonstrates, but everything to do with the manner in which their blog wrote about content. When Sorrow-kun became Behind The Nihon Review's lead writer and admin, he took on the position with the aim of making the blog a starting point for impacting the industry, which Sorrow-kun had felt to be saturated with slice-of-life series. To this end, Sorrow-kun would write constantly of how slice-of-life was degrading studios and the quality of works in a given season, and expected that Behind The Nihon Review's writers would toe the party line. Nowhere is this more visible than through their K-On! reviews. Each of the reviews, two for the television series and one for the film, were written by different authors but utilise the same language, format and come to the same conclusion. Sorrow-kun himself argued that there was a single objective measure for quality in slice-of-life anime and framed it such that under this measure, shows like K-On! were "objectively" poor. Reviews and articles were dotted with reptitive language: over time, "mediocrity" would become the go-to word for dismissing a series, and even in discussions unrelated to slice-of-life, snide remarks were often directed to slice-of-life and their viewers.

Maintaining such a negative tone is unsustainable: readers tired of the lack of variety and constant bashing of a genre (Sorrow-kun could not resist criticising K-On! whenever the opportunity presented itself), while writer turnover was high because being told to conform with the site's branding (of hating slice-of-life) greatly limited the creative freedom writers need to be successful. Unsurprisingly, Sorrow-kun would eventually stop writing for Nihon Review, and in a discussion on their forums, Behind The Nihon Review's staff expressed decreasing morale as a result of the dropping visitor count and engagement (via comments). Decreasing morale resulted in a corresponding drop in motivation to write, and the reduced article count further contributed to the site's eventual inactivity. Comments that this was a consequence of changes in readers' expectations is to blame-shift and deflect responsibility; Behind The Nihon Review's decline was not a consequence of readers demanding new formats like YouTube videos or podcasts, but rather, the fact that Behind The Nihon Review's insistence on hating a genre resulted in repetitive, poor quality content that gave readers little incentive to keep reading and commenting.

Today, Behind The Nihon Review's domain has expired, resulting in their entire legacy being reduced to a mere footnote in the annals of anime blogging. The lesson here is simple enough: a successful blogger builds their branding around positivity and sincerity, as well as promoting discussion and openness towards other perspectives, rather than attempting to control the narrative, lecture readers and otherwise trying to dissuade people from liking things contrary to one's own interests through pseudo-academic means. The results speak for themselves; I've been blogging for as long as Sorrow-kun has, and my blog still maintains its engagement. This is where my question comes in: why was Behind The Nihon Review so widely respected during its run when much of their content ended up being thinly-veiled attempts to tell people what to think?

[Sheba]

This is where my question comes in: why was Behind The Nihon Review so widely respected during its run when much of their content ended up being thinly-veiled attempts to tell people what to think?

I am not going to write a wall of text, but being around for long, I can remember that it was cool to hate on the slice of life/Cute Girls Doing Cute Things genre (and the studio KyoAni crystalized that Cool Thing to Do). We were in the late 2000s-2010s. All talk about the genre, and that studio, became toxic. It reached a point that any series talk that reached those territories, the mods of this forum will close the thread or delete posts.

So there may be the reason why it was popular: people flocking to places where their views are validated. And it did it with, what I'd say as a native French who dont have much command on English, Big Words. That give the impression that it is well articulated (*). I think it gives them the impression they are much more sophisticated individuals. But as you say, too much toxicity eventually drive people away. And places filled with overwhelming negativity (as in shoving everyone's throats with THEIR preference for anime and hatred for certain tropes) like 4chan, anidb, ann, etc, are simply too big to fail. Meaning people wanting to hate on something will always find some place to go.

Also, the hatred on slice-of-life and Cute Girls Doing Cute Things have shifted on Isekai since mid-2010s and it look like it wont stop until Japan stop adapting all the godamn isekai light novels under the sun. So, on the brighter side, series like Yuru Camp and Healing Girls were allowed to be discussed and loved for what they aimed to do, without having the toxic people ruin people's enjoyment (someone in twitter have pointed out this fact. Healing Girls would have been bashed to oblivion in the late 2000s early 2010s). And in a time where terrorism is rampant, fascism is openly embraced, work conditions and environment is changing for the worse, slice of life is a balm for our minds filled with anxiety. Sometimes, we just want to swallow the blue pill because we realized that, in our scale, we are powerless, with no political clout and none of the wealth to make a significant change.


(*) In the french youtube cinema vlogging, there is a vlogger who uses his education and his quoting of philosophers like Nietzche to bash Hollywood entertainment, while praising French movies. While failing to grasp that French people run away from French movies because those tell the same fucking stories (spouses cheating each other) over and over.

[Kanon]

This is actually the first time I've even heard of "Behind the Nihon Review". I've always thought the biggest anime blog around, which has maintained its longevity, is Random Curiosity. I discovered it when Blood+ was airing, I mainly used it as a source of spoilers since the guy running it (one man back then) wrote reviews and posted lots of screenshots soon after the episode aired, and in a time where it took a while for subs to show up, it was valuable.

Anyway, that Sorrow guy was definitely wrong to use his blog as an outlet for his hatred for a certain genre of anime. Slice of life has always been a great genre IMO, especially the "healing" subset, and I'm certainly glad it's now widely accepted.

[Guardian Enzo]

Random C was really big for a long time. That and Star Crossed were my gateway anime sites. I was one of the first people Divine brought in to help out at RC and I can tell you it's still quite popular, though anime blogs generally don't have the traffic they did five or ten years ago. It's a sideline for me (LiA is very much my main gig) but I enjoy being a part of a site with so much history.

As for BtNR, I confess I never really read it at any point in my anime journey. Was it really that popular? I would concur generally with the idea that subsisting on snark is not tenable in the long-term in this field, though obviously I have my own issues with certain genres in anime. For the most part I just don't write about those shows - it's not edifying to mock them for the sake of mocking them and people can like what they want. The toughest part for me is that those genres (primarily CGDCT - an acronym I coined, AFAIK - and isekai) have become so dominant now that the medium as a whole is much less diverse.

[Last Sinner]

I think the age of honest, civil discourse is long gone. Anime fans are increasingly more likely to hack you or swat you if you dare to not agree with them. I honestly feel the mid 2000s was the best time to become an anime fan. Access to titles had started to open up but not too much. You could find enough people that only shared your view to a point but were civil and gave you a different perspective that was worth discussing. You had to be patient for material to appear and grateful when something good appeared. It honestly felt like a community vibe was worth it. The days around here in the late 00s/early 10s were really something.

And then everything became shill and/or degeneracy communities/channels. I honestly believe streaming has made the anime fandom a worse place. I'm chilled to think of what it would be like now to try and become an anime fan. In short, I honestly feel that the bigger Youtubers, the various communities and news sites - they are blatantly telling you want to them. Because they're either sponsored and want that money to keep rolling in, or they are so entitled now they would probably feel killing you over merely disagreeing about their favourite show/character as being utterly justified. And with that, what is being adapted/written is getting narrower and repetitive. Which makes for the rare exception to be very worthwhile, but the wait for one keeps getting longer.

[Guardian Enzo]

While I obviously have a vested interest, I do think the biggest anime presences on the net - websites like ANN, YouTubers - largely get big by feeding people what they want to hear. They're part of the industry's marketing arm, basically.

It's easy for me to throw stones, because who knows how I'd react if someone waves enough money in my face. Do I wish my site and YT channel were big enough to be my primary source of income? Absolutely. But thin gruel as it is, at least I say what I want and about what I want.

[Tactics]

Looking back based on my personal experience I think its not that bad.

During 00-10's era I do notice there's significant amount of cynicism into "cute girls doing cute things" but as Sheba said, it something akin to case of now "Isekai". When it done in moderation its good, however the explosion caused a lot of production committee think they can get away with low quality execution because "cute girls doing cute things" mantra worked like a charm for sales (or VN, or isekai, chose your poison); can't say its poor decision because on production side one will always wanted to optimize sales.

The hate is understandable because part of that era charm is a lot of anime blogger building for identity following bigger ones like Random Curiosity.
Mecha-specialized blog, mystery-reaction specialized blog and many more. VN and LN adaptation still worked for them as it doesn't come with fixed theme allowing various stories taken, but when cute girls doing cute things taking over, as in increasing to the point a lot of anime for a year using similar premise (just like how a lot of isekai-ed people having some kind of OP skills), is it strange for dissatisfaction increased it became concentrated? I don't think not-as-positive-as-me in certain works have serious correlation to longevity in blogging compare to connections, writing style and information quality.

Back then there's this blog I followed, specialized on posting summary of LNs, it doesn't active anymore; 10+ years inactive (closed) as far as I could remember. Its not popular like RC, the traffic is small, like 3-5 people, I think. Sometimes talked about "Why I think this LN deserved anime adaptation" after the summaries. One day, the owner said he will not posting regularly because it became harder to made talk about it as lack of variety following cute girls doing cute things trend spell incoming lack of care to sub-culture like chuuni, mecha, etc unless supported by big player like Gundam, super popular like Idolmaster, or can be incorporated with cute girls doing cute things; not much hope to LN compare to before he grew disliked it. Kinda feel bad for him because he's big fan of Aria, which belong to that category.

By now, I'd like to believe as long one gave proper explanation to "Why I dislike this", people will understand.
"I dislike this movie because standard moeblob stuff that can be done in regular episode, also poor detailing on activities" is understandable for me. Then again, by current standard following rise of social media, this kind of statement equal to act of haters, person far from being credible, not my friend anymore and anything synonymous. LOL.

[relentlessflame]

First I want to say that I don't really like the opening of this thread because it is nearly a screed that borders on a personal insult to the owner of this now-defunct site. The conclusion drawn is agenda-driven and not objective at all: there's no evidence whatsoever that the reason for their loss in popularity was because they offered harsh critiques of moe slice-of-life shows like K-On, or that changing those opinions would have led to a different outcome. "I'm still here and you're not" is not itself proof of anything; there are so many reasons a community dies out, and it's far too simplistic to blame it all on one factor (that may not even really be a true reason at all). We don't need to keep taking potshots at specific people after they're already gone from the scene in an effort to prove some sort of point.

That being said... I do remember this "era" and I, too, was annoyed at the time with what sometimes seemed to be sanctimonious gatekeepers trying to tell people that the shows they legitimately enjoyed were "objectively garbage" (even though there was very little objective about any of it). But now, it seems to me that people like this blog owner and others who wrote in that style were trying to find their audience of peers -- likeminded people who were interested in the same kind of academic-style writing and discussion they enjoyed, and shared similar views on popular trends. In that sense, it's not so different from why any of the rest of us spend time discussing anime culture online. In some ways they fed off the strong negative emotional reaction they got from "fanboys" -- they were a sort of "counterculture" that enjoyed being a bit provocative. But I think a lot of time was wasted trying to argue with them when, really, people could have just focused more on speaking positively and cogently about what they enjoy and why. This too is a way of finding a peer group of people who enjoy anime and share similar tastes, and I know a lot of people here on this very forum found likeminded anime fans because of that.

The other thing is... a lot of the authors on that blog, and people with opinions like theirs, were "anime junkies" who tried to watch "all the anime" and wanted to try to have academic opinions on absolutely everything. Some of them were trying to be the absolute "art connoisseurs" of anime. And I really think that, just like some professional movie/TV/game critics, this can cause people to get jaded and become really entrenched in the kinds of experiences that they still find fulfilling after so much oversaturation. The kinds of experiences that stick out as being the cream of the crop to those people are not necessarily going to be the same shows that the average person is going to find the most entertaining. The problem isn't necessarily that the average person is less cultured or experienced, but can also be that the junkie doesn't have the balance of healthy moderation to keep their senses in check. (For example, they tend to overvalue the "unique" experience rather than a comforting/familiar experience, and the latter is a huge factor for entertainment.)

Whenever you read any sort of opinion or critique, you always have to take into account the writer's own bias and perspective. Just because someone is a good writer and seems to make smart arguments doesn't mean they're "objectively correct" about what makes good entertainment for any given person. The one problem these writers often had is that they became entrenched in their reasons for watching anime and the factors of their own personal enjoyment (and those of their like-minded friends) that they missed the fact that other people are wired differently, and enjoying something for different reasons doesn't mean you're somehow inferior. But of course, if we in turn look down on them for the reasons for their own personal enjoyment, we're not so different.

So anyway, I guess all this to say... I think we should aim for more understanding of people with different opinions about topics like these, and that includes the authors of this old blog being criticized posthumously (the blog is what's dead, of course). Even if you disagreed with their point of view and took objection to their tone sometimes, seeing other opinions helps you sharpen your own understanding of what you like and don't like, and can help you learn to articulate why. Sometimes you can find just as good recommendations for yourself by reading critics you always disagree with. And besides that... I really think it's time to let go of these old grudges by old critics who you feel wronged you and the shows you liked in the past. Whatever they said didn't take the shows you loved away from you anyway, so it's really all water under the bridge.

[Infinite Zenith]

First, I appreciate all of the feedbacks. The main takeaway here, Relentlessflame, is actually that applying an academic approach wasn't ever going to work if one had intended to use it to tear down, mock or denigrate. Guardian Enzo and Sheba raise excellent points: writing for these reasons is unproductive, and attempts to define objectivity and shoehorning academic methods into blogging is inherently challenging. Conversely, bloggers who wrote much more casually, with the intent of, as you say, being positive, had a lot more fun with the pursuit and found themselves engaging with the community in a more meaningful way, enough to sustain their hobby over a longer timeframe.

Random Curiosity is a fantastic example of this: although they've gone through many writers over the years, their best writers all share in common the willingness to dispense with academic methods for a more approachable and accessible touch. They tend to speak from the heart and describe what worked for them, or what didn't work, from a value-laden perspective, and that made their content more meaningful. Were I to have asserted that I alone had practised methods that made my blog long-lasting, Relentlessflame, you would have a point. However, Random Curiosity and many other blogs have fond longevity because they are positive. Behind the Nihon Review, in trying to be provocative, struggled precisely because their mindset was one of negativity, and maintaining this over the long run would be nastily exhausting. My point therefore stands: the emphasis on negativity by means of academic methods did them no favours.

In this case, I have no qualms with Behind Nihon Review's hatred of K-On! per se, but I am suggesting that trying to use more obscure vocabulary and references to philosophy, sociology, etc. as a means of impressing, or intimidating viewers to justify their position (where a personal, subjective response would be significantly more valuable) comes across as being extremely disingenuous. This wouldn't be as large of an issue were it not for the fact that people in the day agreed with them without fully understanding what was being said, and Last Sinner has (correctly) noted that things today are perhaps worse in some circles: unfortunately, people have a tendency of falling for things that "sound smart". On reflection, this thread may potentially be in violation of some forum rules, but I've long wondered why others felt drawn to this specific approach and might even be willing to defer to someone else's opinions on the virtue that there's a lot of flowery language. Sheba has proposed an explanation that makes sense, and I will clarify: I don't look down on what people like and dislike (I could have easily written endless articles on my own disapproval of isekai, but I acknowledge people have legitimate reasons for enjoying them!), but I hate it when people agree with sophisticated-sounding folks who only sound smart without giving other perspectives fair consideration.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Infinite Zenith

applying an academic approach wasn't ever going to work if one had intended to use it to tear down, mock or denigrate. Guardian Enzo and Sheba raise excellent points: writing for these reasons is unproductive, and attempts to define objectivity and shoehorning academic methods into blogging is inherently challenging. Conversely, bloggers who wrote much more casually, with the intent of, as you say, being positive, had a lot more fun with the pursuit and found themselves engaging with the community in a more meaningful way, enough to sustain their hobby over a longer timeframe.

Honestly, it seems to me that a lot of the people who wrote these kinds of essays (whether on blogs like that one or even on this forum) did it because they found fulfillment in the process of writing about, analyzing, and critiquing anime in this way/style. Obviously it's gratifying to be part of a community of like-minded people, but that isn't necessarily why people start a blog in the first place or what keeps them motivated to keep on writing.

If your goal is to build a large, diverse audience, then I do agree there's a benefit in remaining somewhat non-judgmental and being more open to different experiences (while still obviously having a clear opinion/voice). But not everyone is seeking to build large, diverse audiences with their blog; some people just want to write in a way that is authentic to how they feel, even if it means limiting their reach and excluding some people. Perhaps this makes you more "niche" in what is already a niche community, but it's certainly feasible to do that.

Just because you're a good writer doesn't mean you have the talent for community-building or any real interest in it. If the writer started losing their interest in writing about anime, perhaps they felt no further obligation to the community that built up around it and thought it was time for everyone to move on. Building something that survives the founder is not easy, especially when that founder has very strong characteristics (like, in this case, strong opinions and a specific, articulate writing style).

Also, I suspect your perception of the negativity of this blog was specifically because you personally felt targeted by it as a fan of slice-of-life shows (which, as others in this thread mentioned, were sort of "cool to hate" back in that time due to being a bit over-represented). But I'm not sure that most people would have defined that blog as really being all that "negative" on the whole. I'm still not convinced the real issue was being either positive or negative in particular. I suspect it's more likely that the site had a very specific "voice," it was a hard act to follow when the founder lost interest (and there was no real "succession plan" or support for that process), and the site wasn't able to transition into its next act. It's a common problem that extends far beyond the anime blogging world and really can apply to any group or organization that's very "founder-centric."

---

A sort of related point here, but I had many discussions in the past with people, including these kinds of critics, about the importance of "tone." Academic writing teaches people to be as clinical as possible and to try to eliminate opinion or the "self" from the essay -- it's just about making assertions and justifying it with evidence/facts. But I am still not convinced that this alone is really the best way/format to discuss media in most cases. I still believe in being more open/upfront about the "self" and the role your own experiences and preferences play in forming your perceptions. Ultimately, I think writing about how you experience media is, in no small part, writing about yourself. (And this is why when you use strongly-objective-sounding language to describe something subjective, it can come across as a slight to others with a different perspective.) So that was really my frustration with people who liked to write in that style (and wanted others to debate them in the same style), and in that sense I do agree with some of the concerns raised to some degree.

There have certainly been cases on this forum over the years where certain posters had a skill of using extremely flowery and grandiose words to tell people "anyone who likes this show is a complete idiot." Sometimes I had to moderate those sorts of posts, and even ban repeat offenders, but there was a group of people who seemed to never understand or catch it at all. The personal attack was couched between very well-written prose that seemed, on one level, to be kind of reasonable -- it didn't have any "bad words" and didn't say straight-out that someone's an idiot. But you can't just be here to lord your opinion over others either; this site is about facilitating a discussion between peers from many different backgrounds/perspectives. So again, I do think I agree with several of the underlying thoughts, just not entirely with the way all this was framed.

[Archon_Wing]

Oh dear, how did I come across this? A bit late to the party but let's see.

I think like the downfall here is that people tend to overanalyze things. Blogs are generally just hobbies and many people just move on. ANN on the other hand is a business. I vaguely recall the Nihon Review. Some of the reviews were decent, others I disagreed with, but the main crux of it was in the discssuons. It just seems to me people moved on; I don't really see the need for too much speculation.

I don't really like to participate in discussions where people can't defend themselves, but it was inevitable that certain SoL shows would just not be critic friendly. And to be fair that era was a time of transition and somewhat volatile so anime would go in and out of people's tastes. Many people simply never adapted and their favorite medium is just not the same. I don't think that's necessarily wrong.

But I don't think their opinions are necessarily invalid, regardless of whatever convoluted approach they might have taken, unless they were taking their opinions towards other people. Funny social media has gotten much worse in this regards in the mobs that appear.

However, I certainly don't like bad faith reviews and critics. The moment they start citing falsehoods and delibrately dismissing things in plain site, I have a problem. A lot of people seem to hate shows through second hand knowledge (eg my friends told me a show supports slavery; it must be bad!).

And yes, I agree with relentlessflame that there were definitely a lot of pretentious things going on where an amazing amount of obfuscation was an excuse for insults. Admittingly I was borderline, but I never meant for too much trouble. It even destroyed an entire community sadly.

But like I've always said, smart people can like dumb shows, and just because you like smart shows, doesn't mean you are smart. In the end there is much more to entertainment, and what purpose it serves.

And hey, at least you didn't feel targeted for liking ecchi shows; people (especially some parts of reddit/twitter) will treat you as the scum of the earth.

[Last Sinner]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

And hey, at least you didn't feel targeted for liking ecchi shows; people (especially some parts of reddit/twitter) will treat you as the scum of the earth.

Still not as bad as Danganronpa fanatics (note fanatics, not people that like it) having Discord wars then doxing people that didn't agree with them by sending SWAT teams to their house.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Last Sinner

Still not as bad as Danganronpa fanatics (note fanatics, not people that like it) having Discord wars then doxing people that didn't agree with them by sending SWAT teams to their house.

Yea that kind of doxing and swatting stuff really needs to be taken more seriously.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

Funny social media has gotten much worse in this regards in the mobs that appear. [...] And hey, at least you didn't feel targeted for liking ecchi shows; people (especially some parts of reddit/twitter) will treat you as the scum of the earth.

Obviously this is a side-topic, but I definitely think social media has changed a lot in the last ~decade or so. Before, it felt like there were a lot of communities there but they were largely kept separate of each other despite all being in this giant space -- I could start talking about some random anime and I'd get feedback from a small group of other anime fans. But now, it seems a lot more about communities colliding and fighting each other all the time. Due to certain reasons, even having an anime character as an avatar is a cause for stigma, regardless of what you may say. It just feels... exhausting. I've more or less tuned out of social media entirely as a result, even though it's not like anything happened to me personally. Maybe it's just the natural progression of anything going from niche to quasi-mainstream and attracting a lot of attention. All this is years ago preceding all the latest changes and drama, but it doesn't entirely surprise me that we've gotten to this point.

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

I don't really like to participate in discussions where people can't defend themselves, but it was inevitable that certain SoL shows would just not be critic friendly. And to be fair that era was a time of transition and somewhat volatile so anime would go in and out of people's tastes. Many people simply never adapted and their favorite medium is just not the same. I don't think that's necessarily wrong.

But I don't think their opinions are necessarily invalid, regardless of whatever convoluted approach they might have taken, unless they were taking their opinions towards other people.

I mean, this is basically the classic online chat/forum problem writ large: people stating their opinions in a way that other people take as a personal attack or slight and getting really defensive about it. This thread is basically just an extension of that, as I said last year (which is also why I, too, didn't/don't like this thread where the people couldn't defend themselves -- it's like dancing on a grave).

I think you're hitting on a key point here in that a lot of these people came from a place where their idea of what anime is, or should be, is defined within certain constraints/ideals. At that point in their life, anime meant something to them (or at least, discussion of anime did). A lot of the criticism stemmed from wanting to see anime get better (from their point of view), or wanting to further a discussion among their peers. And probably, from the perspective of some others who didn't agree with their views, that seemed a bit like "gatekeeping" -- people who liked the "bad" anime were a problem that were keeping anime from being "good." In the end, though, you can't really stop the progress of time and the natural ebb and flow of people's interests and changing trends. Eventually, things change and people just move on.

Obviously that extends to this forum too. Clearly it's a lot smaller and quieter than it used to be because a lot of people moved on (and the fact we no longer have a torrent tracker means the primary thing driving people here in the first place no longer exists). I sometimes felt in the past like this was some sort of failure, like maybe we should have done more to bring in new interest and keep things alive... but really, a lot of people have just moved on. Even if they may still enjoy anime (I still enjoy it!), at least I personally don't have as much patience and passion for the long discussions we had back in the day. But there is still value to this place as a quieter place to discuss anime and related culture with a smaller group that is a bit isolated from the much wider "noise" of general-purpose social media, so it still serves a purpose for as long as it makes sense for our kind owner to keep paying the server bills.

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

But like I've always said, smart people can like dumb shows, and just because you like smart shows, doesn't mean you are smart. In the end there is much more to entertainment, and what purpose it serves.

Honestly, some of the most engaging intellectual discussions about anime I've been a part of over the years have been about shows others might consider "dumb." Very few things are ever that clearly on one side or the other. Even when I didn't like how a show presented something, it can sometimes be interesting to think critically about what they were trying to accomplish and why, or consider what they could have done to improve the presentation/pacing/etc. Flawed things can be especially interesting! And in general I think there's little value in the little self-depreciating ritual some people do in admitting they like "dumb" shows as a sort of "I'm allowed a flaw" excuse. No need for excuses. As you say, what people are trying to get out of entertainment can be different from person to person; I think we should celebrate when people find whatever they are looking for if it helps make their life more enjoyable (even if, whatever that is today, has moved on to somewhere else).

[Last Sinner]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Obviously this is a side-topic, but I definitely think social media has changed a lot in the last ~decade or so. Before, it felt like there were a lot of communities there but they were largely kept separate of each other despite all being in this giant space -- I could start talking about some random anime and I'd get feedback from a small group of other anime fans. But now, it seems a lot more about communities colliding and fighting each other all the time. Due to certain reasons, even having an anime character as an avatar is a cause for stigma, regardless of what you may say. It just feels... exhausting. I've more or less tuned out of social media entirely as a result, even though it's not like anything happened to me personally. Maybe it's just the natural progression of anything going from niche to quasi-mainstream and attracting a lot of attention. All this is years ago preceding all the latest changes and drama, but it doesn't entirely surprise me that we've gotten to this point.

Big time. But it could be seen coming. Network predicted in 1976 that the point of media was to get you mad. And oh boy, isn't that exactly what is happening now. We've raised two generations of people to get mad easily and to socially regress. And how this also factors into the anime scene is that in the 2000s, we were forced to be more social to be anime fans. You had to go to an anime club/gathering to get hold of/see anime. You were grateful for what you got. People you met didn't have to agree with everything you liked or said - agree with enough and get along from there. You learned that finding something good was valuable and how to engage in relatively civil conversation with others. But the era of convenience and being able to find enough people who will agree with what you say or face condemnation for differing, for being able to dish out revenge without showing your face or real name.

I think you're hitting on a key point here in that a lot of these people came from a place where their idea of what anime is, or should be, is defined within certain constraints/ideals. At that point in their life, anime meant something to them (or at least, discussion of anime did). A lot of the criticism stemmed from wanting to see anime get better (from their point of view), or wanting to further a discussion among their peers. And probably, from the perspective of some others who didn't agree with their views, that seemed a bit like "gatekeeping" -- people who liked the "bad" anime were a problem that were keeping anime from being "good." In the end, though, you can't really stop the progress of time and the natural ebb and flow of people's interests and changing trends. Eventually, things change and people just move on.

Anime has been good for decades. Different things made it good in each of them. Visuals have become better in some ways but worse in others. What people are induced to want to see/buy has changed. In any era, there were genres that dominated (mechs, shoujo, high school, isekai, the eternal presence of shounen). What is sad though is in an era where people have the most chance to embrace anime's history and chronicle it, it's condemned or people are their most reluctant ever to go back beyond a certain point. I've always felt new fans feel a barrier of ~2 years back for most of what they want to try initially. But I feel in an era of convenience where there's more to look at from now, they don't want to try to look at an older title while it's available, then when it's gone they don't know about it or want to seek it out unless they want to set sail on the high seas. I've bothered to collect titles big time over the last couple of years because sure, there are other ways to get it, but for the good times it's given me, I want to do my part and have something to show for it. It's getting darn expensive, but at least I'm near complete on titles to still get that meet the 8/10 or better line.

Obviously that extends to this forum too. Clearly it's a lot smaller and quieter than it used to be because a lot of people moved on (and the fact we no longer have a torrent tracker means the primary thing driving people here in the first place no longer exists). I sometimes felt in the past like this was some sort of failure, like maybe we should have done more to bring in new interest and keep things alive... but really, a lot of people have just moved on. Even if they may still enjoy anime (I still enjoy it!), at least I personally don't have as much patience and passion for the long discussions we had back in the day. But there is still value to this place as a quieter place to discuss anime and related culture with a smaller group that is a bit isolated from the much wider "noise" of general-purpose social media, so it still serves a purpose for as long as it makes sense for our kind owner to keep paying the server bills.

The fact there's less people is why I bother here. So that there isn't a herd mentality forcing people to agree with the majority. People aren't trying to be first/be fast/be viral. We'd just like to voice how we felt and see how others did. We don't have to agree on everything. And the presence of people like Gigguk, Mother's Basement and the like doesn't help or those wanting to go viral by watching certain scenes or having certain memes be regular. They induce major herd mentality, particularly after the industry offered them the bag to promote certain titles. I'd rather watch a channel like Kenny Lauderdale who likes to talk about titles/eras almost no one discusses. It's ironic that Odd Taxi addressed the whole viral thing and even got buzz to the point of Crunchyroll awards for being different while being damn good, but is likely already forgotten by anyone entering the fray now or who took 2021 off. There is a notion that those big channels plug - 'Anime - made by degenerates, for degenerates.' There seems to be some warped pride in being cringe/an outcast, while other pockets take the residency of 'this is inoffensive enough to like, cancel this title for daring to take a stand though' (looking right at you, ANN).

Honestly, some of the most engaging intellectual discussions about anime I've been a part of over the years have been about shows others might consider "dumb." Very few things are ever that clearly on one side or the other. Even when I didn't like how a show presented something, it can sometimes be interesting to think critically about what they were trying to accomplish and why, or consider what they could have done to improve the presentation/pacing/etc. Flawed things can be especially interesting! And in general I think there's little value in the little self-depreciating ritual some people do in admitting they like "dumb" shows as a sort of "I'm allowed a flaw" excuse. No need for excuses. As you say, what people are trying to get out of entertainment can be different from person to person; I think we should celebrate when people find whatever they are looking for if it helps make their life more enjoyable (even if, whatever that is today, has moved on to somewhere else).

Honestly, the notion of flawed for stellar characters working out their issues over time in a rational sense via struggle was what drew me into Summertime Rendering. And honestly, some of the stuff that happens in that title can get silly and a bit ecchi then it flipped the serious switch with ease. But damn, it was fun, I felt that utter zest for the next episode, it was great discussion here while it aired. And as for the golden age of these forums, those fiery discussions over Code Geass were epic. Title definitely had its flaws (such is making a 25 ep title into 50) but damn, it was such a magnet to see ASAP and discuss it to the max. Back in the aftermath of the KyoAni fire, I remember friends gathered around for a night of their titles, then we marathoned Full Metal Panic Fumoffu soon after, which was the very definition of being utterly whack and definitely wasn't perfect, but damn, it was great to view with others. Group stuck around for a year going through Princess Tutu, Aria, Oregairu amongst others before the rona made us go back into hermit mode. I sometimes feel that the more daring/crazy titles can make for better discussion. If you're going into a discussion trying to justify a defense of an epic, it's bound to go haywire. Not sure it'd be a good group viewing either. Heck, one of my most amusing memories ever was when I secured the national premiere of the Eva 3.0 movie in Australia and 1,000 people rocked up. The moment where Kaoru and Shinji were playing the piano sent them into the most intense group laughter I ever saw. And in a sense, Evangelion probably induces so much conversation for being a combo of whack and flawed. But things wouldn't be the way there are today without it. It truly is a point it time where before and after are very different.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Last Sinner

Big time. But it could be seen coming. Network predicted in 1976 that the point of media was to get you mad. And oh boy, isn't that exactly what is happening now. We've raised two generations of people to get mad easily and to socially regress. And how this also factors into the anime scene is that in the 2000s, we were forced to be more social to be anime fans. You had to go to an anime club/gathering to get hold of/see anime. You were grateful for what you got. People you met didn't have to agree with everything you liked or said - agree with enough and get along from there. You learned that finding something good was valuable and how to engage in relatively civil conversation with others. But the era of convenience and being able to find enough people who will agree with what you say or face condemnation for differing, for being able to dish out revenge without showing your face or real name.

Yeah, you really nailed this right on the head. I think the thing that really drew people in this forum in the first place (besides the torrent listings) was that people were exciting to find other passionate anime fans that liked discussing anime in a relatively civil way. Obviously people didn't always get along and sometimes we mods had to step in to keep the relative peace but all in all it was fun to be a bit of a melting pot with people with different perspectives/experiences talking about anime and keeping up as new episodes released week to week. Even though the social factor wasn't nearly as forced as in the era you're referring to -- where the only way to get some anime was to get out there literally to clubs/gatherings -- even this forum is still fundamentally a social experience.

Now, perhaps ironically, it feels like social media isn't really "social" in that sense -- for the most part, there's no desire to find common ground and no perceived value in having civil conversations with others who have different opinions than you. Everything is a battlefield where your side has to defeat the other side, and everyone is constantly mad about everything (and keep seeking things that make them even more mad and entrenched). The conversations are dominated by "influencers" that are seeking the most provocative ways to tell people what to think and what to be riled up about this instant because outrage fuels clicks in an endless cycle.

I don't know how we collective get out of this loop. Maybe some people will just wake up one day and go "what the heck am I doing?" and start seeking real social connection again.

Originally Posted by Last Sinner

Anime has been good for decades. Different things made it good in each of them. Visuals have become better in some ways but worse in others. What people are induced to want to see/buy has changed. In any era, there were genres that dominated (mechs, shoujo, high school, isekai, the eternal presence of shounen).

One thing that I always found fascinating on this forum over the years it at that every broad trend cycle you'd get a small group of people make a forum thread that was basically "anime has gone to hell due to <new trend>, it was so much better before when there was more of <previous trend>." Besides whatever the trends in question were, the arguments were always exactly the same, and invariably not at all about anime being good or bad, but about people's interests naturally shifting, people overdosing and burning out, and about trends coming in and out of style. What these inevitably needed to do was just to self-reflect and realize that the problem isn't really that anime changed as much as it is that they've changed; the whole anger was a sort of way of processing their grief that this thing that was once a center of their identity is fading. And after getting it out of their system, most of those people did just end up moving on, though some ended up appreciating anime on new terms after they addressed their burn out.

Originally Posted by Last Sinner

What is sad though is in an era where people have the most chance to embrace anime's history and chronicle it, it's condemned or people are their most reluctant ever to go back beyond a certain point. I've always felt new fans feel a barrier of ~2 years back for most of what they want to try initially. But I feel in an era of convenience where there's more to look at from now, they don't want to try to look at an older title while it's available, then when it's gone they don't know about it or want to seek it out unless they want to set sail on the high seas. I've bothered to collect titles big time over the last couple of years because sure, there are other ways to get it, but for the good times it's given me, I want to do my part and have something to show for it. It's getting darn expensive, but at least I'm near complete on titles to still get that meet the 8/10 or better line.

Yeah, this has been a problem for a while and it keeps getting progressively worse. Even here on this forum, as I've gotten busier over the years it's been harder to keep up with shows on a weekly basis rather than binging them when I have time, but the window of conversation is exceptionally short. And never mind if I go to the backlog and watch a show from a few seasons back, the discussion is fully dead. Never mind shows from even a few years ago. I slowed down my collection of DVDs/BDs in recent years (no more space unless I move! lol) but there are definitely some gems there that deserve wider recognition so I'm glad to have them in my collection.

Originally Posted by Last Sinner

The fact there's less people is why I bother here. So that there isn't a herd mentality forcing people to agree with the majority. People aren't trying to be first/be fast/be viral. We'd just like to voice how we felt and see how others did. We don't have to agree on everything. And the presence of people like Gigguk, Mother's Basement and the like doesn't help or those wanting to go viral by watching certain scenes or having certain memes be regular. They induce major herd mentality, particularly after the industry offered them the bag to promote certain titles. I'd rather watch a channel like Kenny Lauderdale who likes to talk about titles/eras almost no one discusses. It's ironic that Odd Taxi addressed the whole viral thing and even got buzz to the point of Crunchyroll awards for being different while being damn good, but is likely already forgotten by anyone entering the fray now or who took 2021 off. There is a notion that those big channels plug - 'Anime - made by degenerates, for degenerates.' There seems to be some warped pride in being cringe/an outcast, while other pockets take the residency of 'this is inoffensive enough to like, cancel this title for daring to take a stand though' (looking right at you, ANN).

Definitely as anime has become an easily consumed commodity (easy convenient no-download online streaming to a level barely imaginable when this site first launched), there is less of this concept of being a "connoisseur" of anime as a medium. The popular influencers are focused on being "in the moment" and getting ahead of the latest meme, but timeless, deep discussion is more rare. And, well, in fairness probably this is the natural state for most people who consume any sort of popular, accessible media -- it's just that, in the past, the lack of availability limited the audience to a much smaller, more passionate group. I do think the latter still exists though (even if they're more easily drowned out). I hope there will be a hunger among some people for some more "thoughtful" discussions as people start seeing the social media outrage engine for what it is and looking for something more "real" in the years to come.

Originally Posted by Last Sinner

Honestly, the notion of flawed for stellar characters working out their issues over time in a rational sense via struggle was what drew me into Summertime Rendering. And honestly, some of the stuff that happens in that title can get silly and a bit ecchi then it flipped the serious switch with ease. But damn, it was fun, I felt that utter zest for the next episode, it was great discussion here while it aired. And as for the golden age of these forums, those fiery discussions over Code Geass were epic. Title definitely had its flaws (such is making a 25 ep title into 50) but damn, it was such a magnet to see ASAP and discuss it to the max. Back in the aftermath of the KyoAni fire, I remember friends gathered around for a night of their titles, then we marathoned Full Metal Panic Fumoffu soon after, which was the very definition of being utterly whack and definitely wasn't perfect, but damn, it was great to view with others. Group stuck around for a year going through Princess Tutu, Aria, Oregairu amongst others before the rona made us go back into hermit mode. I sometimes feel that the more daring/crazy titles can make for better discussion. If you're going into a discussion trying to justify a defense of an epic, it's bound to go haywire. Not sure it'd be a good group viewing either. Heck, one of my most amusing memories ever was when I secured the national premiere of the Eva 3.0 movie in Australia and 1,000 people rocked up. The moment where Kaoru and Shinji were playing the piano sent them into the most intense group laughter I ever saw. And in a sense, Evangelion probably induces so much conversation for being a combo of whack and flawed. But things wouldn't be the way there are today without it. It truly is a point it time where before and after are very different.

Yeah, definitely if you look at this forum over the years, besides your shounen staples, the shows that generated the most passionate discussion were always the flawed one that kept people hooked. Probably the most epic forum meltdown we had over the years was Shuffle!, of all things -- the whole reason subforums started requiring approval for generating new threads stemmed from that! And maybe the quality of discussion wasn't always top-rate, but the passion everyone had to watch the show ASAP every week just to part of that discussion made everything exciting. There are a lot of other shows that are considered truly timeless classics but never generated all that much discussion around here because it just didn't lend itself as much to speculation or have as many flaws/issues to hotly debate.

And yeah, Eva is a great example of the kind of show that lends itself to great discussion -- absolutely flawed work but full of things to talk about, lots of place for speculation/interpretation, full of memorable moments, and everyone has an opinion on the ending. Probably a lot of the best anime for discussion have something in common with Eva's approach, intentionally or not.

[serenade_beta]

I've always wondered if that if these old popular anime were actually created these days, if they would still be popular
If a completely new anime with the same plot as Eva came out this season, would it be able to become a timeless classic?

I remember recently reading somewhere in a discussion on how content is being burned through so quickly these days. The next season comes and no one remembers the next season. And then someone mentioned that the number of people that really go deep into anime haven't really changed as much as the fact that more casual users have come in and this casual crowd doesn't stay on anything for long, and since there are so many casual users, it just feels that way.
Though due to this perhaps, the anime industry is on one of those "If we stop we die" platforms where they just pump 40 anime each season and if 5 anime sells 100 each, it is better than trying and making just 1 anime that doesn't sell 500, but although the number of people watching anime has increased, the number of people making has not, thus seen...

Never heard of Nihon Review really, but its nice to see Random Curiosity still active. And pretty impressive really. There are so many anime + real life responsibility as I get older that I hardly to get myself to write more than a few lines for separate episodes.
I have a friend who has similar hobbies as me, and he's more of a manga man than anime, and he definitely has a more healthy way of going on anime. Flat out just doesn't watch anything unless he cares, so he usually only watches like a couple of anime each season unless I suggest it strong enough to him

As for social media...

It's a lost cause. As long as the world catches on fire after I die, I don't care.
But if there is one thing I've constantly seen and noticed, it's that defenders of something are often more vicious than the people criticizing it.
...Defense? Hmm, well, they think it's a defense anyways.

[relentlessflame]

Anyway, I'm going to lock this thread for now. As I said a year ago, coming here to criticize a "dead" blog you had a beef with in the past isn't really the most appropriate thing to do. But I do thank everyone who tried to contribute constructively to the conversation regardless. If anyone would like to start a new thread to discuss the wider points we discussed (without a pointed attack at anyone present or not), please feel free.