2011-04-08, 00:19 | Link #22561 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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If you like to think that the apparent incosistencies or holes in the story are what he planned and he does have an explanation then it's all good I guess... but you can't know for sure. However I prefer to think that in doubt it's better to assume the author made a blunder. Else any idiot could write an half assed story and then claim he can explain everything and everything makes perfect sense, but he won't tell because it's part of his "narrative objective".
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2011-04-08, 02:25 | Link #22562 | |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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That text in Kinzo's story and the EP7 tea party didn't come from nowhere. If you want to claim that undermining the credibility of the bomb theory was a mistake, then what other narrative objective was Ryukishi trying to accomplish with that new explanation that couldn't be reached with just the Kaiten warheads?
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Last edited by LyricalAura; 2011-04-08 at 03:04. |
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2011-04-08, 06:00 | Link #22563 | ||
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Join Date: Dec 2010
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Doctors actually do give diagnoses like Kinzo's. The Lockerbie bomber was released because he supposedly only had three months to live. (Unfortunately, it was wrong.) |
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2011-04-08, 20:33 | Link #22564 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: In the Meta- World... on Virgillia's bed.
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I consider any information left out of a story regarding that story's plot, a plot hole. To be even more specific, any info that can help the story make better sense. Such as Shkanon, so far Shkanon just seems to be nothing more than a strong implication, but when will the confirmation that doubters like me need come? Its been eight episodes, each containing problems than can be solved with Shkanon and other solutions, and each containing a hint towards it yet no real confirmation saying "These two are the same people." Instead, they keep saying "They have a connection with each other." Why is it a plothole? Because Shannon and Kanon's relationship is a big part of the mystery, if not the core.
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2011-04-09, 03:03 | Link #22568 |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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Speaking of narrative coincidences, I just noticed this bit from the card game in EP8.
George: "Uwah. So it wasn't a bluff...!" Jessica: "Man, and I was sure that whenever he puffed up like that, it almost always meant he had a crap hand...!" Battler: "I lost all those times before now because I wanted you to think that, you know? The man who sets up losses in order to win at the end, Ushiromiya Battler! Ihihihi!" And that's all the confession you're going to get for the logic error in EP6.
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2011-04-09, 07:41 | Link #22569 | ||
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2011-04-09, 10:01 | Link #22570 | |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
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That said it's strictly implicit. Yet Battler makes 2-3 direct references to his willingness to gamble heavily on a major risk in ep6 alone. Have we forgotten how he can have bursts of brilliance in between apparent droughts of incompetence? That's part of what makes his behavior surprising. It's hardly out of character.
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2011-04-09, 12:31 | Link #22571 | |
The True Culprit
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2011-04-10, 18:27 | Link #22572 |
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Join Date: Jul 2009
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It's practically forced on you in some places, but I don't buy Shkannontrice for a number of reasons. That's not to say it's definitely not the intended meaning, sadly it looks like it is, but it still doesn't work and I don't think it was the original intention.
Nothing concrete is ever said in Episode 7. It does seem to apply at times Shannon and Beatrice are the same person. Kanon is barely touched on. I think there's a reason for this though. Kanon is barely a character in Episode 7, however Shannon gets a lot of attention. I think this is simply because Kanon is Yasu, but Shannon is not. However, Shannon and Kanon have some kind of Mion/Shion thing going on. Shannon, and possibly other servants are illegitimate or undocumented children/grandchildren of Kinzo, which explains the resemblance between Shannon Kanon, since they have a lot of the same genes, there's a good chance they'll look similar. Or, there could just have been two babies to begin with, and one one was given to Natsuhi. There's not much to go on here. Several times in Ep.7 Yasu and Shannon are addressed by a third party together by the other maids. "Do you believe in that too, Shannon-chan?" etc. Yasu and Kanon's mannerisms are much more similar, they're much more shy and reserved. Shannon and Yasu just don't seem all that alike at all, aside from Shannon inheriting Yasu's love of mystery novels. I think what explains a lot of the episode is that it's Beatrice/Yasu's account of what happened. At the end when Clair is torn apart, we see some twisted memories suggesting we didn't quite see the whole truth. I believe all the scenes we see in Shannon's room are fabricated. People have been saying they're the same person - that's why people commented on them having a single room, etc. This causes a lot of confusion with what happened, and possibly even causes "Shannon" and Yasu's memories to be muddled, as the Shannon we see in certain scenes is imagined - just like for example Kinzo in the fantasy scenes; but there is still a real Kinzo. Shkannontrice defies one of the rules we're given; that it takes two people to create a universe. Therefore, Shannon could not have created the universe with her, Gaap, Beatrice and the rest by herself. She could have had "Furniture"/Imaginary friends like Maria and Sakutarou, but nothing on the level of what she had, or else there was no meaning to saying that. "Gaap" was kind of like Maria's Sakutarou, she was her imagined character but it was only when we see Shannon and Beatrice meaning that we actually get a collection of characters acting in an imagined world(the Golden Land). The Golden Land does not exist prior to this, and according to the rule we're given, cannot. Beatrice says she'll give Shannon a little brother, and Kanon turns up. The old theory suggests she spawns a new personality, or a new "friend". However look at it another way- Beatrice dresses up as Kanon so she can be a servant on the island and get close to Shannon. This theory just solves so many problems. The only weird thing is the love duel from Episode 6, which could be solved another way - only one person can survive and get the headship, so only one of those couples can happen anyway, they each share a soul as only one lives, but it's not determined which. Also, giving Beato Shannon's love - but that's just a rehash of the Mion/Shion storyline. |
2011-04-10, 19:02 | Link #22573 | ||||||||
The True Culprit
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Come on, man, you can try and argue that Shannon and Kanon are different, but you can't argue that Shannon and Beatrice are different. You seriously just can't, it's impossible. Quote:
Honestly, I don't think you thought this through at all.
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2011-04-10, 19:03 | Link #22574 | |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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No wonder he got so much love in the poll... Reading this theory also made me think that Kanon and Shannon could possibly act as sort of a metaphor for Yasu/Beato's constant mental battle between cynicism and idealism, illustrating her indecisiveness to take action. Kanon would be the cynic and Shannon would be the dreamer idealist. and Beato is Beato. You won me over with Kanon fanon, and now look at me rambling on and on. What a low blow.
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2011-04-10, 19:45 | Link #22575 | ||||||||||
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And it's not true that she wasn't seen by anyone - after all there were plenty of sightings of Beatrice around the mansion. It's a big enough island, too, there may even be other random hidden buildings beside Kuwadorian, or she could have been taken off the island. What's of note to me is that it's mentioned Yasu was quite ill when younger, but this seems forgotten later on in the story. I think it's likely her illness was tied with her disappearance(or her sudden change to Shannon, or whatever). Quote:
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We can only trust those scenes. We can't trust the scenes where Shannon and Yasu are alone, because one of them could be making those up - didn't you learn anything from Natushi in Ep.5? Same thing, with some differences. Kinzo was still a real guy. Quote:
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Maria. This should tell you something. Quote:
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More believable than Shkannontrice by a mile. Quote:
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Shkannontrice is just a truly awful theory. I don't know why you're getting so aggressive at someone for trying to make better sense of the whole thing. |
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2011-04-10, 21:05 | Link #22576 | |||
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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Getting a few points out of the way. Because I can. Ah well.
The room thing is still a valid point. They comment that it would normally go 2 and 2. Yasu is in a one person room while they're in a three person room, and that would only make sense if the Shannon isn't really staying in Yasu's room. Plus, your theory screws up Shannon's timeline. Which, despite my earlier response is sort of a pet peeve of mine. Besides Battler's timeline she's the only other person that's had her timeline emphasized as being important through out well... A LOT of the plot. Quote:
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2011-04-10, 21:19 | Link #22578 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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You can say that shkanontrice itself is awful but how can the theory be awful?
The theory is grounded on way too many evidences so much that even supposing that it's false you'd still need to acknowledge that Ryuukishi tried his best to make the readers think it's true.
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2011-04-10, 22:38 | Link #22579 |
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My big beef with Shkanon is that it doesn't really explain that much, and really raises bigger questions than it answers.
On one hand, it explains "Why doesn't Battler ever see Shannon and Kanon at the same time?" And raises "Why did Hideyoshi lie about seeing Shannon's corpse at E1T1?" "Why did most of the adults lie about seeing Shannon's & Kanon's corpses in Episode 3? (Why didn't they drop the charade after Rosa's / Maria's deaths?)" "How do you explain Kanon died in this room. in Episode 2?" just to list the most direct problems. I think that "Godha is Maria's father." is also a crappy theory, but it at least actually explains things.
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2011-04-10, 22:56 | Link #22580 | |||
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
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