2010-09-15, 17:31 | Link #17682 |
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Here's a thought I've been toying around with.
What if those bestowed with the title of "Beatrice" are the authors? We would have Beato for Eps 1 and 2, Eva for Ep3, and Ange for Ep4. I could see Eva as having written Ep3. |
2010-09-15, 17:34 | Link #17683 | |
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As for detectives never seeing them together...Look at it from Beato's perspective: -Single Shkanon is something she would like to push Battler into believing -It eventually leads him into Double Shkanon(and therefore the truth) and until then it seems like a very solid move -Making them not meet is very different from it not being possible that the three met. In other words, she kept a card up her sleeve the whole time. Or in meta-meta-meta, Ryuukishi was trying to troll us with Shkanon to divert our attention from the actual truth. |
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2010-09-15, 17:40 | Link #17684 |
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The argument for single Shkanon there in Ep5 is that since Erika wasn't narrating in first person, the narration wasn't necessarily reliable. Ultimately one can argue one way or the other and neither side will get anywhere. But that's beside the point if we're theorizing about Double Shkanon now.
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2010-09-15, 17:51 | Link #17685 | |
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Anyways, I honestly see no reason for two people to disguise as each other.
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2010-09-15, 17:55 | Link #17686 | |
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I mean if normal Shkanon wasn't so blatant, we would never have reached Double Shkanon. Imagine Shannon and Kanon in the same room. Now, try to imagine yourself arriving at Double Shkanon. Beato was leading him towards that conclusion. And if single shkanon(which is not true) was her way of showing him Double Shkanon(which means that Beato is Shannon) then everything makes sense. ...Except for Kanon's motive during episode 2, but I'll get into that later. |
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2010-09-15, 17:59 | Link #17687 | |
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The biggest and most devastating flaw in your 'Double Shkanon' theory is... what's the point? What would be the point of two people disguising as each other?
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2010-09-15, 18:09 | Link #17688 | |||
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As for a non-meta reason, my theory is that Kinzo wanted 'Beatrice' to live close to him until she was reborn, and needed a reason to justify her being there. So he said she was a servant. But she was never a servant as he would never tell the woman he loved to do something like that. So he made Kanon do the work for both him and Shannon, while Shannon did nothing. It explains the love duel in episode 6(whether Kanon should follow Shannon and protect her like he promised Kinzo or stay and love Jessica) and it makes some reasonable sense. The biggest advantage about Double Shaknon is that it allows Jessica, Krauss and Natsuhi not to be retarded. |
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2010-09-15, 18:20 | Link #17690 | ||
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Anyway, even if we don't want characters writing their own stories (like jan said, as ange found even the witch hunters theories repulsive), eva or witch-hunters influencing 3 and ange influencing 4 can still hold some weight assuming Featherinne really is the one weaving these, whereby she does not 'make up' stuff but patches peoples beliefs of what happened on Rokken-prime and itches them as reality in fragments or stories. But in any case, the biggest issue I cannot conceive is where is battler in this case? Is he locked up in some faraway castle reading the stories while waiting for mario to save him? Or could it be related to okonogi's plan, since ange seems to be a thorn in it perhaps battler surviving is even more of an obstacle as he knows something that happened on rokkenjima? Quote:
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2010-09-15, 18:36 | Link #17693 | |
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Yeah it would make more sense as illusion than luck probably. There's also a lot of conversation on the concepts these witch's follow in the Lambda thread I think.
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2010-09-15, 18:37 | Link #17694 | |
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We have never really seen Ange making any speculation. It seems to me that she doesn't want to guess what happened, she's probably sick of speculations.
However it's possible that this is only true for the Ange of 1998 and initially she did think about what could happen. And yet, why Ange would include magic stuff on her story? We have evidence that Ange didn't believe in magic not even when she was a little child. Unless it all happened during the brief timespan when she started imagining Mammon and the stakes. But then again why would she write such a story? Why would she be pissed at "witches" for killing her family in their stories if she did the same thing? Also if Ange really did write EP3, then she would make Eva a more evident culprit, her story would be more similar to Bern's tea party rather than to a Beatrice's game. We learn later that Ange didn't really achieved a true understanding of magic until 1998, and whoever wrote EP3 must really understand magic to describe all the things that happened in EP3. Ange didn't even understand the "black witch" thing before, she couldn't possibly describe Evatrice. The let's say that there is a coauthor, but how did this other author managed to get Ange story? And why would this second person need it? Why she couldn't write a story from scratch? At any rate even if this is the case, I think that what really matters is the last author anyway. Quote:
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2010-09-15, 18:40 | Link #17695 |
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The other argument for Ange is sortof process of elimination. The game is meant to be solvable within the first 4 episodes, and Hachijo isn't introduced until episode 6. Therefore, a reader would have to say that "culprit X" wrote episodes 3 and 4.
Unless some other character wrote them (Okonogi? Amakusa? Battler?). |
2010-09-15, 18:43 | Link #17696 | |
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2010-09-15, 19:31 | Link #17698 | ||
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Knowledge as of now is that, it was not Kinzo who put the 1986 Beatrice into Fukuin and back on the island but the servants. I would go even further to say, that it would make not much sense otherwise, because it would make Kinzo's whole behaviour (lamenting for Beatrice to return) either illogical or a trick that is impossible to get to unless we would start ignoring evidence and guess. There are several scenes in the first 4 Episodes that imply that a real Beatrice is on the island, but Kinzo is unable to see her. For example in Episode 2, when Kanon comes back from the beach and sees Kinzo crying in the rosegarden. A ghostly Beatrice appears behind him, sad about the fact that even though she is just behind him (much like Kanon), he is unable to see her because he lacks love. There are several other scenes, especially in Episode 2, that heavily imply that Kinzo was waiting for Beatrice to return, but had no actuall knowledge about her whereabouts. Quote:
Also Episode 3 is the only one where the survivors match the actual outcome (Eva as the only survivor) so it is highly probable to have been written afterwards. We also learn of the theory that two bottle letters exist and that they were probably written before the incident. Ange is also possible to rule out as an author, because of her goal to destroy the legend of Beatrice, while the Episodes actually uphold the witch theory. She would have to be pretty weird in the head to actually write against herself in the end... I actually had the theory that one of the Witch Hunters wrote some of the later Episodes when I read Episode 4, because in made sense in the context.
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2010-09-15, 19:41 | Link #17699 | ||||
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It would explain things a bit better if we were to assume that Beatrice is alive and he knows it, but she isn't Beatrice even while alive. Otherwise he would have to be extra insane. But here is where the classic black hole of 'I wouldn't put past Kinzo to make my theory plausible' comes in that I am guilty of myself. Kinzo has been built as someone who would do anything(except kill Beatrice on purpose) with very little reason, so it's hard to pinpoint his actions. Quote:
It's not illogical for Kinzo to lament for Beatrice to return even while he knows she is Shannon though. It would be similar to Battler wanting her to return even after she comes back as chick-Beatrice. Last edited by Will Wright; 2010-09-15 at 20:33. |
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2010-09-15, 20:47 | Link #17700 | |||
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We probably also should not conflate Fictional-Ange with an Ange who would write anything. That Ange would exist only in a setting we have not seen. She should be similar to, but not necessarily the same as, the Ange portrayed. Finally, consider that she might still be trying to destroy the witch's legend even by writing things like Alliance. If her writing is an effort to cast to the winds and bring Battler home... well, Battler coming home would destroy the legend that the witch spun a trap for him on Rokkenjima and kept him there, wouldn't it? Quote:
The Hachijou/Featherine character we meet is, in a sense, "one of the Witch Hunters," a random person who provides an authorial aura, but no apparent connection to the events. The possibility that she is not who she seems is taken pretty literally, even.
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