[Anime] Umineko - Speculation & Theories (for first time viewers)

[ErenselTheJester]

Touche. Lovely answer. Most humans don't say these things like that.

[DizzyRoro]

@ErenselTheJester

I don't want to come off as rude, but I would also ask that you abstain from using red in your theories... there are plenty of people here who will easily look at your (often very faulty) red "truths" and become horribly confused. And other times, you're using your reds as if they're blue. If you're not going to stop using red, which is up to your choice, at least use it properly by presenting actual truths (which should be taken straight from the game, or be at least objectively true) and using blue for theories (which you use red for, erroneously.)

But then again, who am I? You're a demon, right?

Back on topic...

Spoiler for Episode 24, Removed from anime.:

Battler's... "identity" or lineage, at least, is another one of the mysteries that perplex me, I can't seem to wrap my mind around it, other than what Beatrice proposes... which she didn't even say in red. The proposition that "You are part of a plot involving the distribution of the inheritance by Ushiromiya Rudolf... etc etc." which I believe DEEN removed from the anime. I suppose that this either means that it was a red herring, or that DEEN just didn't want to put it in; however, I highly doubt Beatrice was in the "mood" for trolling at that point, she said it herself, that she would "not play games". It's also the only shred of proof of 'why' Battler would be conveniently named with the same name as Asumu's son.

I don't want to view Rudolf as a horrible person, but maybe the reason he practically begged Battler to return was due to the fact that he was necessary to this inheritance scandal... which, in turn, means that it was not already in place. If my absurd theory is correct, then Rudolf's inheritance scandal could very well be involved with what's going on in the island. Seeing as how "Ushiromiya Battler" is one of the last people alive in almost every episode, it certainly shows that some kind of force is 'preventing' Battler from dying early on.

Though this in itself really brings me no closer to the truth of Battler's dilemma. Curses. Back to the drawing board...

[Dlanor A. Knox]

Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester

Again, The chances of a child swap are highly unlikely. So, there is no way that two women would willingly swap their children. Kyrie had Ange. So, that also lowers the chance of a child swap since Kyrie already had a child from six years ago. The truth is that Battler simply doesn't exist, since he himself doesn't have a mother for which he is born.

I'm not saying that Kyrie swapped the kids willingly!
I said that Asumu is a bitch and that she swapped the kids! THINK ABOUT IT IF YOU HAD A STILL BRON AND YOUR RIVAL A HEALTY BOY AND YOU WANT TO MARRY YOUR LOVE THAN YOU WANT TO SWAP YOUR KID WITH THE OTHER WHATEVER IT TAKES! + ANGE & BATTLER HAVE (ALMOST) THE SAME HAIR&EYE COLOR!
....
....
That feels good

[ErenselTheJester]

I'll tell you this, Witches are good at pulling crap from their butts and calling it a "Red Truth". You're right, I've been using red truths willy-nilly, but you should take it seriously.

So with that said, I would suggest taking my red truths more seriously. I'm not doing to be cocky or offend anybody, its just a way to shorten the thinking process a little. So, I shal start with first truth, There is no possibility of a child swap. Taking that as truth is your choice, but please acknowledge and think about it.

[Jan-Poo]

You are getting on everyone nerves

taking that as truth is your choice, but please acknowledge and think about it

[MeoTwister5]

Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester

I'll tell you this, Witches are good at pulling crap from their butts and calling it a "Red Truth". You're right, I've been using red truths willy-nilly, but you should take it seriously.

So with that said, I would suggest taking my red truths more seriously. I'm not doing to be cocky or offend anybody, its just a way to shorten the thinking process a little. So, I shal start with first truth, There is no possibility of a child swap. Taking that as truth is your choice, but please acknowledge and think about it.

Man you take this shit way too seriously.

The reason we save the use of Red Text for use with the actual red text used by the game is by agreed convention: in order to facilitate proper discussions and to prevent any sort of cunfusions between game text and user posts, we only use red text in the way they were used because they were concrete and established. You aren't the only one's posting here, everyone else does and in order to keep things flowing and proper and to avoid sidetracking we all use the red as they were used. If you blatantly intend to force your own view on it despite the fact that you're pretty much derailing discussions for everyone else then expect no one to even bother replying to you in any serious manner.

The red text is meant for things that are true in their core essence. Interpretable yes, but what they mean in their core is extablished. Whenever red is used everyone else has to double check their own lists and whatnot because for discussions sake we assume the contents are those that speak as the game uses them, as such it makes everyone else pause to make sure and it delays everything else.

In short, it's a matter of ettiquete.

[ErenselTheJester]

Okay, I'll try to use blue, but I doubt I'll be able to do it. Here it goes.

Battler does not exist.

OKay, let me try that again.

Battler does not exist.

Dang it. I'll try one more time.

Battler does not exist.

Yay, I did it. One more time for good luck.

Battler does not exist.

Dang it, I really can't say it. I'll go away for awhile and practice. Be right back.

But, just tell you something. I'm a jester, a Demon of Entertainment, telling me about ettiquette is like telling a wall how to walk. But I'll try anyways.

[Qilin]

Ya know, I hate to interrupt, but the guy is probably a troll. I'm getting the feeling that his posts are meant to just tick people off rather than provide suitable discussion.

To make my post not completely out-of-topic, I'm still praying that episode 26 will come out satisfactory despite the lack of time.

[ErenselTheJester]

Okay, okay, okay, okay, I'll stop using red! Sheesh.... Okay, I have two questions: What if there is no possibility of a child swap? What if Battler was born to one parent and never was switched? With these questions in mind, I believe that Battler does not exist and instead was created by Beatrice to partake in her game.

[chounokoe]

Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester

Okay, okay, okay, okay, I'll stop using red! Sheesh.... Okay, I have two questions: What if there is no possibility of a child swap? What if Battler was born to one parent and never was switched? With these questions in mind, I believe that Battler does not exist and instead was created by Beatrice to partake in her game.

Then you believe in magic and there is no reason to doubt anything that was shown to you. Period.

Now be content with your theory and see how it turns out.
Except the fact that there are people outside of the board who seem to have knowledge of Battler...so I would ask, how can Ushiromiya Ange have knowledge about a brother who was only created during the time of the gameboard?

[Kaiba]

Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester

I'll tell you this, Witches are good at pulling crap from their butts and calling it a "Red Truth". You're right, I've been using red truths willy-nilly, but you should take it seriously.

So with that said, I would suggest taking my red truths more seriously. I'm not doing to be cocky or offend anybody, its just a way to shorten the thinking process a little. So, I shal start with first truth, There is no possibility of a child swap. Taking that as truth is your choice, but please acknowledge and think about it.

While everyone's talking about your playing around with red junk, I highly suggest you remove that spoiler of yours immediately. This is the thread for anime watcher, so we don't need spoilers, particularly with the Tea Party.

[ErenselTheJester]

Originally Posted by chounokoe

Then you believe in magic and there is no reason to doubt anything that was shown to you. Period.

Now be content with your theory and see how it turns out.
Except the fact that there are people outside of the board who seem to have knowledge of Battler...so I would ask, how can Ushiromiya Ange have knowledge about a brother who was only created during the time of the gameboard?

I said that he was created to partake in the game, I never when he was created.

[DizzyRoro]

Going on with your possibility of Beatrice creating Battler (at an unknown time and unknown date), it should thus follow that Beatrice is capable of creating people at her will and leisure. If that is so, then why would Beatrice take such a roundabout route to find a 'playmate'? If Battler is truly a creation of Beatrice, I believe that she would find no more enjoyment out of it than she does interacting with her already-magical 'family'. It would also render Beatrice's argument useless regarding the "denial of Ushiromiya Battler". In essence, it would also be akin to Maria and Sakutaro's relationship.

Lambdadelta and Bernkastel are an audience to the game because it is, in its truest form, a game. I highly doubt they would find it as interesting if Battler was simply a creation of Beatrice's.

There is no game without loss, just as there is no game without competitors.

A few questions to ponder about with your theory:
If 'our' Battler is a magical being, how is he widely acknowledged as having a background and history in the Ushiromiya family?

Beatrice told Battler that "six years ago, Battler and Beatrice had not yet met." (It goes further in the VN when she says she had not yet 'materialized'... whatever that means.) Which makes the time frame for Battler's creation much, much smaller.

For your theory to be completely plausible, you would also need to know when Beatrice DID materialize. Although she presumably only met Battler during/"after" the two days at the family conference of 1986.

Thank you for taking our requests into consideration, I hope you'll continue to partake in levelheaded discussion with us.

[ErenselTheJester]

[QUOTE=DizzyRoro;2827536]Going on with your possibility of Beatrice creating Battler (at an unknown time and unknown date), it should thus follow that Beatrice is capable of creating people at her will and leisure. If that is so, then why would Beatrice take such a roundabout route to find a 'playmate'? If Battler is truly a creation of Beatrice, I believe that she would find no more enjoyment out of it than she does interacting with her already-magical 'family'. It would also render Beatrice's argument useless regarding the "denial of Ushiromiya Battler". In essence, it would also be akin to Maria and Sakutaro's relationship. [/QOUTE]

She probably didn't want someone from the real world to play a game. Instead, she probably wanted to set something up for herself just out of boredome. There could be many reasons why she would want to create an opponent.

Lambdadelta and Bernkastel are an audience to the game because it is, in its truest form, a game. I highly doubt they would find it as interesting if Battler was simply a creation of Beatrice's.

Heck, they were probably bored. Why would they want to see a game that is only meant for the witch to lose anyway?

There is no game without loss, just as there is no game without competitors.

I don't know what's the purpose of saying that, but okay.

A few questions to ponder about with your theory:
If 'our' Battler is a magical being, how is he widely acknowledged as having a background and history in the Ushiromiya family?

Memory manipulation, realm manipulation, I'm guessing that you forgot that Beatrice can do pretty much anything she wants.

Beatrice told Battler that "six years ago, Battler and Beatrice had not yet met." (It goes further in the VN when she says she had not yet 'materialized'... whatever that means.) Which makes the time frame for Battler's creation much, much smaller.

For your theory to be completely plausible, you would also need to know when Beatrice DID materialize. Although she presumably only met Battler during/"after" the two days at the family conference of 1986.

Considering how long Beatrice has been alive, which is a long time considering that she's immortal, she could've made Battler at any point in time. So trying to make an exact date would be quite a challenge.

Thank you for taking our requests into consideration, I hope you'll continue to partake in levelheaded discussion with us.

Just leave me alone and continue the discussion. Right now, I'm really not in the mood for any "thanks" for something I don't want to do.

[spideys95]

Here's what I know about this topic, Battler does exist, Beatrice did not create Battler, Beatrice could not create a Human because she could not even create her own body. Beatrice is not fully a witch, via what Ange proved to Eva-Beatrice. Battler is not Asumu nor Rudolph's son, however Battler is related by blood to the Ushiromiya Family. Try to prove me wrong in blue if possible. *Chuckles*

[AmyElizzabeth]

Originally Posted by spideys95

Here's what I know about this topic, Battler does exist, Beatrice did not create Battler, Beatrice could not create a Human because she could not even create her own body. Beatrice is not fully a witch, via what Ange proved to Eva-Beatrice. Battler is not Asumu nor Rudolph's son, however Battler is related by blood to the Ushiromiya Family. Try to prove me wrong in blue if possible. *Chuckles*

..Didn;t you just read those messages up there? people don't like the red used out of context with the actual show/VN.
Also, preview for 26:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9VEHLKGIxY&feature=sub

[ErenselTheJester]

Originally Posted by spideys95

Here's what I know about this topic, Battler does exist, Beatrice did not create Battler, Beatrice could not create a Human because she could not even create her own body. Beatrice is not fully a witch, via what Ange proved to Eva-Beatrice. Battler is not Asumu nor Rudolph's son, however Battler is related by blood to the Ushiromiya Family. Try to prove me wrong in blue if possible. *Chuckles*

Battler does not exist. It is possible for Beatrice to create a Battler because she is a witch. She can create her own body. Beatrice is a full witch. Battler is related to the Ushiromiyas.

We can play this game all you want. Now, stop, if I can't use it, you don't.

[spideys95]

Originally Posted by AmyElizzabeth

..Didn;t you just read those messages up there? people don't like the red used out of context with the actual show/VN.
Also, preview for 26:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9VEHLKGIxY&feature=sub

lol sorry I forgot

[Muyasuki]

Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester

Battler does not exist. It is possible for Beatrice to create a Battler because she is a witch. She can create her own body. Beatrice is a full witch. Battler is related to the Ushiromiyas.

We can play this game all you want. Now, stop, if I can't use it, you don't.

The whole purpose of this is so that Beatrice can be revived. If she had the ability to create a full being, then why would she need to go through all the effort. Even if it didn't work that way, she could just undo the magic on Battler and reapply it to herself.

How did you even come to the conclusion that Battler doesn't exist anyways. There are WAY WAY too many ways that prove how much he actually existed and none (that I can think of) that would prove otherwise.

@spideys95: What makes you think Battler isn't Rudolph's son? I don't think anything was said to contradict it.

With that out of the way, I'm starting to think that Rudolph and (maybe) Kyrie knew what was going to happen at the island (or at least thought they knew). It didn't even dawn on me till recently that in the first arc, Rudolph mentioned that he would most likely die to Battler and (I think Kyrie). Taking this into account (even though I do not have any idea how he got the funds unless he knew for a fact he wasn't making it out alive and used all of his own wealth), I think that it was him who sent out those letters with the keys to all of those relatives. I also think he may have done something to prevent Ange from going as well. He may have wanted to do the same for Battler but doubted that it would be as easy to explain both of them missing out. I can't remember where I heard it but I'm pretty sure that Ange was apparently sickly or something.

[ErenselTheJester]

Originally Posted by Muyasuki

The whole purpose of this is so that Beatrice can be revived. If she had the ability to create a full being, then why would she need to go through all the effort. Even if it didn't work that way, she could just undo the magic on Battler and reapply it to herself.

How did you even come to the conclusion that Battler doesn't exist anyways. There are WAY WAY too many ways that prove how much he actually existed and none (that I can think of) that would prove otherwise.

Battler does not exist. He is sort of a "Nobody" where he doesn't exist but has a physical body and a mind with a will of its own. Please, tell me all the many ways that my theory is wrong, so I can revise it. I don't feel like wasting anymore time. By the way, I'm going to note the fact that Beatrice is a witch with the title of Endless, so she can do whatever she wants.