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View Poll Results: Penguin Drum - Episode 12 Rating | |||
Perfect 10 | 37 | 47.44% | |
9 out of 10 : Excellent | 27 | 34.62% | |
8 out of 10 : Very Good | 8 | 10.26% | |
7 out of 10 : Good | 4 | 5.13% | |
6 out of 10 : Average | 0 | 0% | |
5 out of 10 : Below Average | 1 | 1.28% | |
4 out of 10 : Poor | 0 | 0% | |
3 out of 10 : Bad | 0 | 0% | |
2 out of 10 : Very Bad | 0 | 0% | |
1 out of 10 : Painful | 1 | 1.28% | |
Voters: 78. You may not vote on this poll |
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2011-10-02, 06:49 | Link #121 | ||
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Last edited by Kazu-kun; 2011-10-02 at 07:13. |
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2011-10-02, 07:34 | Link #122 | ||||
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Age: 32
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However, I have no qualms accepting that religions etc. are more similar than different in their message to humanity etc. and I have no issues accepting that self-sacrifice is an admirable virtue played up by most religions in the world. I don't like that western writers tend to use the word Christian to talk about virtuous though and find it unfunny when they apply that to describe the intents of someone who actually doesn't follow the Christian faith. I have met some people, intelligent, scholarly people, who seriously think Christians are the only virtuous people around. You could probably tell that I am not a Christian but I am not a Buddhist either (a cultural Christian now and raised as a cultural Buddhist though) and I see no reason why the former should be used as an adjective to describe something the latter holds higher. Quote:
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I see full well why you'd think they are different and I don't disagree. There is a big difference between selfless self-sacrifice and motivated self-sacrifice. However, I disagree in as much with the implication you made that what Kanba is doing isn't self-sacrifice or that it is invalidated as an act of higher purpose. Because it is self-sacrifice and it still serves a higher purpose. The world is but ephemeral and worldly relationships matter not. What matters really is that someone can sacrifice what should be most valuable to them so long as they are attached to this world to save another. Who the another happens to be doesn't matter. And trying to save your sister is an amiable action, one that definitely counts as a higher purpose regardless of the motivations behind it. Whether or not Kanba feels incestuous drives for his sister or if or not he would burn the world to save her doesn't take away from the fact that him dying for her is an act of self-sacrifice and an admirable purpose - so long as you keep the fact that she's actually already dead away anyway. But yes, I completely agree in that what Kanba would burn the world to save his sister and he is ultimately headed towards disaster thanks to an almost fanatical obsession with his (already dead) sister. In a sense, he needs to get over her death much like Miyazawa did. Oh and I am pretty sure Ikuhara's intentions aren't to draw parallels between Campanella and Kanba but rather to contrast them. Kanba is a foil to Campanella. What he is doing is admirable but ultimately misguided and even regressive and harmful to those around him and himself. |
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2011-10-02, 07:48 | Link #123 | ||
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And whether you are biased or not, it's not entirely irrelevant in here because this is a discussion board. If you are being biased, there might be no point in trying to discuss regardless of whatever reason because you would bend to your own mindset anyway by citing up "other" pieces of literature which might or might not apply to Penguindrum. I'm not saying your opinion is bad. I'm not saying hating Kanba is bad. I just want to tell others that they might consider not to take your argument too seriously if that's the case. And now I'm so confused why you would be so alarmed in trying to stop me. I will not say anything more on this subject because yeah, it's irrelevant to the topic and against the rule so let's end this here... Quote:
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2011-10-02, 08:07 | Link #124 |
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: My Desk
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Maybe Ringo is the Scorpion and.... nah Ringo has been far from sacrificial, but then there's the OP where ringo burns out then vanishes.
And the apple that bunny commander was holding, that bottle symbolizes a drug, probably heroin or poison which means Himari died from arson or the hospital employes are suspect to any wrongdoing.
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2011-10-02, 08:08 | Link #125 | ||
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Anyway, let's assume I do hate Kanba (even though I don't really) and I'm biased. If that's true then it also true that you, who likes Kanba, are also biased, just the other way around. But you know, the true is that everyone is biased someway or another, because everyone's opinion is colored by their own cultural baggage and personal experiences. It's not an issue because it's the same for everyone. Quote:
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2011-10-02, 08:34 | Link #126 | |
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2011-10-02, 08:51 | Link #127 | |
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That said, let's just stop this off-topic thing right here. You don't need to reply either.
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2011-10-02, 18:41 | Link #128 | |
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Age: 35
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In other words, no, the scorpion's primary feeling was not one of not wanting its life to be meaningless, or to have been useful. That is a human moral interpretation based on our perspective of the scorpion's role in the chain of causality. We rationalize "because the scorpion fed on others, its life will be given meaning if it passes itself on as sustenance and prey", i.e. returns its karma. The scorpion's genuine feelings, however, were actually motivated by empathy: for the weasel who would go hungry, just as Kanba is motivated by empathy for Himari who has/would have/will die. After all, it is not like the scorpion's desire to sacrifice itself would've naturally achieved anything. It's "natural fate" was to have drowned in the well, just as Kanba's desire to save Himari would normally be considered meaningless, as "too little, too late". It is only the mercy of the goddess which took the scorpion's desire for self-sacrifice and transformed it into an ever-burning flame. Before that point, in their altruism, and in their mortal suffering, Kanba and the scorpion can be seen to be exactly the same. Thus the existence of the "red scorpion's flame" is a miracle, which in the universal fate of humanity generally does not exist. The allusion to the red scorpion as a parallel to Kanba in Ikuhara's work makes no judgements on his correctness or morality aside from "deserving of the goddess' mercy, a pure and misfortunate soul". |
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2011-10-03, 02:31 | Link #129 |
Seishu's Ace
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Kobe, Japan
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If you're going to discuss Buddhism vs. Christianity as regards "Night on the Galactic Railroad", much less specifically as it relates to Campanella and Kanba, read the book or at least see the movie. This topic is a very complicated one as relates to Miyazawa. I think there are strong Christian and Buddhist themes as play in the book, and if anything, I think Miyazawa's emergent philosophy is something like a pastiche of both.
On reflection, I tend to agree with Kazu that Campanella (and the scorpion's) actions in "Railroad" are almost diametrically opposed to Kanba's in episode 12. The former are classic Buddhist ideals, whereas what Kanba did is in some ways about as "un-Buddhist" as you can get. It's fundamentally selfish even if it is a sacrifice, but even more importantly, it represents pain and suffering due to attachment to the material. Buddhists spend lifetimes studying and meditating to try and lose the attachment to the physical body - Kanba is obsessed with keeping Himari in her's.
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2011-10-03, 04:42 | Link #130 | ||
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Campanella and the scorpion are no more transcendentally Buddhist than Kanba is. In saving, or desiring to save, another creature's life altruistically, they were acting out the materially/mortally bound Buddhist mission of compassion/empathy. And that is somewhere one can definitely make comparisons of the parallels between Kanba and the scorpion. Kanba's empathy is specifically focused on Himari, true. But this has nothing at all to do with selfishness. After all, Himari's life is ending meaninglessly, being wasted. After all, Kanba himself is willing to trade his life for Himari's happiness. That Kanba sacrificed others, had not previously shown empathy is of no significance--the scorpion, too, had fed upon others. But in trading his life for her, would Kanba's life have served any less noble a cause than the rescue of a stranger? In disappearing from this world, would Kanba's death have amounted to any less of a loss than Campanella's sacrifice? Kanba's willingness to do so is his equivocation with the red scorpion. His pain in this episode was the equivalent of the scorpion's mortal suffering as it lay drowning. His heart to sacrifice himself is the burning red flame the scorpion was transformed into. The one thing he was lacking is a goddess of enlightenment. Neither Campanella, nor Kanba, nor the scorpion were ever a Buddha. But they were each pure in giving themselves over to self-sacrifice. |
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2011-10-03, 06:17 | Link #131 | |
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2011-10-03, 10:41 | Link #132 | ||
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@Sol Falling.
I think you're jumping to conclusions here. Quote:
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I'm not just playing devil advocate here, but lines like this are somewhat telling: Kanba: "Himari always cared for us. I can't lose her. She's the world to me." So, why is Kanba trying to keep Himari alive? Because he's thinking of Himari's happiness, like you said, or because he would be unhappy without her? Whose happiness is he really trying to preserve? Bottom line, we don't know any of this. We don't know the PoC's ultimate goal, we don't know what Himari herself really wants, and we certainly don't know if what Kanba is doing is as selfless an act as you think it is.
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2011-10-03, 11:43 | Link #133 | |||
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2011-10-03, 12:08 | Link #134 |
Seishu's Ace
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Sorry, but I don't see even a liberal interpretation of events showing Kanba is "pure in giving himself over to self-sacrifice". Pure is not a word I would associate with much of what happens in this anime, but unless your goal is to start an argument just for the fun of it (we've certainly had enough of that on this board already) it's hard to overlook the selfish side of what Kanba is doing. He's driven by love, sure, but also by lust and you can't ignore the fact that trying to subvert death is about as anathema to Buddhist principles as you can get.
No one is saying that Campanella or the scorpion have achieved enlightenment and become Buddhas - at least I'm not. But there's a big gap between that and what Kanba is doing, and to call their actions analogous to Kanba's is a pretty creative reading of events, to say the least.
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2011-10-03, 12:53 | Link #135 | ||
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Why not? Why being the payment to whatever her father did can't be the purpose of her life? For all we know she might have been born specifically to fulfill this role.
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And since we don't even know that, the allusion is baseless IMO.
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Last edited by Kazu-kun; 2011-10-03 at 14:59. |
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2011-10-03, 13:26 | Link #136 | ||
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I still cannot see how lust or sex can have any role to play in the wish to die in place of another person. Quote:
Compassion is the doing of Buddhism. Enlightenment is the knowing. The very point of using animals in Buddhist parables, is to show that you need not have the latter to express the former. |
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2011-10-03, 14:18 | Link #137 | |
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Join Date: Sep 2011
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I don't see how his self sacrifice is selfish just because he loved her. If someone sacrificed their life for me, the last thing on my mind would be "wow, that person loved me so they died for me. How selfish."
I doubt Kanba's thoughts on the matter were solely "I would be unhappy without her, so she has to live so I can be happy." That would be a moot point anyway - if Himari were to live at the cost of Kanba's life, he would be dead. He wouldn't be experiencing happiness because again, he would be dead. I think a motive for most people trying to save a loved one at the cost of their own life is more along the lines of "I don't want this person who I love to suffer through dying." In Himari's case, she's a sweet girl who is dying so young and Kanba loves her and doesn't want her to go through that. Is a parent selfish for wanting to save their child at the cost of their own life, just because their child is the world to them and they love them? Would the parent be considered selfish even if the child begged them not to die to save the child's life? The parent only wants the best for the child (in this case, to live and grow up), even if their child doesn't want to receive it. Would the fact that they would be happy if their child lived and miserable if they died negate any selflessness of the act? I don't think so, I don't think their sacrifice would be selfish, even if they would gain some happiness out of it. And I don't think that Kanba's decision is selfish at all. Quote:
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Last edited by YayPepsi; 2011-10-03 at 14:50. |
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2011-10-03, 15:16 | Link #138 | |
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On that note, the allusion to the red scorpion is indeed an attempt to show Kanba's sacrifice in a good light (even though I think the allusion is misguided!), but the obvious sexual references, and the fact that Shouma utters the world "taboo" just when the PoC is penetrating Kanba's body say otherwise. There's also the fact that Kanba is clearly shown as someone obsessed, not just in love, and unable to cope with Himari's death (and let's not forget that Himari IS already dead). All in all, I said there's a great deal of ambiguity here. EDIT: I think things are going to become more clear when/if Kanba begins to hurt other people for Himari's sake.
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Last edited by Kazu-kun; 2011-10-03 at 15:28. |
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2011-10-03, 17:10 | Link #139 |
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I agree that if Kanba does start harming other people to bring back Himari, that will be selfish. Sacrificing an innocent party for your desire to save someone is different than sacrificing yourself.
I think there may be some falling out with Ringo in the next episode, over the fact that she gave up the diary after Kanba told her not to. Which could lead to conflict with Shouma. Of course, it depends on what Sanetoshi has to say to Kanba first.
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