Immrigrant's Rights

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by SpecterVR

I thought most illegal immigrants were people who haven't renewed their green cards, and have been citizens before. xD I'm not sure, I can't back up that claim but I heard it from a teacher, so I didn't take it with the usual barrel of salt.

Honestly, I think that whole Immigration Bill was a(nother) distraction. After reading it, It was completely and totally unrealistic. Wholesale Produce Markets rely on the Illegal Immigrants, as well as many other markets. To split up families and outright support such an unrealistic bill in regards to 11 million people is ridiculous. I mean, if it were 100-200, maybe even 1000 people it may have been a possibility. But its purely not. x_X

My two cents, its another distraction that tons of people fell for so easily. But at least it hasn't had drastic results that the other distractions have. *stares at gay marriage & abortion*

I could be wrong or things might have change but uptill i swore to become a citizen of the US. I never had to renewl my greencard. Once those things are issues they don't expire. I think your teacher might be talking about certain visa which is different form a green card.

While this whole immagration debat might be a distraction raise by bush to snake something through. However to be fair the immagration issue and illegal alien issue has been simmering for several years now. The issues would have been brought up sooner or later.

HoboGod, how about those brother instead of relying on that old man try to figureout how to grow their own food. Even children stop relying on thier parents after 20 or 30 years.

[TougeSil80]

Depend on the types of visa you have. There are 2 year green card (only valid for 2 years) and 10 year green card. So if for whatever reason they lost their qualification to renew, they will probably stay illegally.

[tanuki]

Originally Posted by SpecterVR

I thought most illegal immigrants were people who haven't renewed their green cards, and have been citizens before. xD I'm not sure, I can't back up that claim but I heard it from a teacher, so I didn't take it with the usual barrel of salt.

That would apply to some illegal aliens...those who originally entered the country legally. They represent a drop in a bucket though compared to those who cross the border into the US without ever trying to go through the Immigration and Naturalization Service procedures to make their entry and stay legal. They don't intend to be temporarily in country but instead want to be long term residents. They avoid the INS and the procedures to become naturalized citizens because they already know that their application for citizenship would be declined. The reason for this is because so many others from the same or nearby foreign countries have done precisely they same thing they intend to do, enter the US illegally with the intent to remain indefinitely.

Honestly, I think that whole Immigration Bill was a(nother) distraction. After reading it, It was completely and totally unrealistic. Wholesale Produce Markets rely on the Illegal Immigrants, as well as many other markets. To split up families and outright support such an unrealistic bill in regards to 11 million people is ridiculous. I mean, if it were 100-200, maybe even 1000 people it may have been a possibility. But its purely not. x_X

Immigration reform taking center stage in the media spotlight now does look like another distraction to take the minds of citizens off other issues like the war in Iraq and high oil and gasoline prices. The illegal immigrants have been flowing in across the border with Mexico for a very very long time and it isn't as though the matter suddenly breached a criitical threshold so the problem must be made a top domestic policy priority and dealt with now. A higher priority after 9-11 imho is strictly border security. Tackle that first and the flow of illegal aliens into the US will decline because they will be be denied entry along with any terrorist. Once that happens then worry about how to handle all the illegal immigrants who are already in the US. It's not like they are going anywhere anytime soon unless INS happens to catch and deport them.

[slayer]

Originally Posted by SpecterVR

I thought most illegal immigrants were people who haven't renewed their green cards, and have been citizens before. xD I'm not sure, I can't back up that claim but I heard it from a teacher, so I didn't take it with the usual barrel of salt.

Honestly, I think that whole Immigration Bill was a(nother) distraction. After reading it, It was completely and totally unrealistic. Wholesale Produce Markets rely on the Illegal Immigrants, as well as many other markets. To split up families and outright support such an unrealistic bill in regards to 11 million people is ridiculous. I mean, if it were 100-200, maybe even 1000 people it may have been a possibility. But its purely not. x_X

My two cents, its another distraction that tons of people fell for so easily. But at least it hasn't had drastic results that the other distractions have. *stares at gay marriage & abortion*

illegal immigrants also count in respect to green card renewals and forceful entry to a country. As long as a migrant is in a country without citizenship, he/she is illegal to the country.

[HoboGod]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

HoboGod, how about those brother instead of relying on that old man try to figureout how to grow their own food. Even children stop relying on thier parents after 20 or 30 years.

As I said, you can interpret it however you want. It very well could be their own fault for not having enough food. But does that mean the old man should have turned away the brothers and let them die like the first man?

[tanuki]

Originally Posted by HoboGod

As I said, you can interpret it however you want. It very well could be their own fault for not having enough food. But does that mean the old man should have turned away the brothers and let them die like the first man?

Altruism has it's place so long as it's within reason. Blind altruism that knows no boundaries can be a shortcut to the poorhouse. Then the guy coming to the neighbors door looking for a handout will find the owner sitting in front of his home (next to a foreclosure sale sign on the property), and wearing a "Will Work For Food" sign hanging from his neck...because he gave and gave to the point of his own ruination and still people will come expecting him to give even more. The US can't be looked to as the economic salvation of every poor person from Mexico into Central American that manages to cross the border into the US illegally. No country, no matter how large or prosperous it might be, can absorb an unlimited flow of uneducated and unskilled illegal immigrants. If the US were to try, eventually the people fleeing a country that was allowed to become a hell on earth would find that others have already turned their intended destination into a similar hell as well.

"Guard protect and cherish your land, for there is no afterlife in a place that started out as heaven".

[HoboGod]

Originally Posted by tanuki

Altruism has it's place so long as it's within reason. Blind altruism that knows no boundaries can be a shortcut to the poorhouse. Then the guy coming to the neighbors door looking for a handout will find the owner sitting in front of his home (next to a foreclosure sale sign on the property), and wearing a "Will Work For Food" sign hanging from his neck...because he gave and gave to the point of his own ruination and still people will come expecting him to give even more. The US can't be looked to as the economic salvation of every poor person from Mexico into Central American that manages to cross the border into the US illegally. No country, no matter how large or prosperous it might be, can absorb an unlimited flow of uneducated and unskilled illegal immigrants. If the US were to try, eventually the people fleeing a country that was allowed to become a hell on earth would find that others have already turned their intended destination into a similar hell as well.

I never spoke of blind altruism, the old man's charity was within reason that he remained fat and lazy with more food than he could eat. He could have given more and still remained fatter than the brothers. And these "unskilled and untalented" brothers could become skilled and talented too if they were let into the old man's home as equals. (Immigrants from Europe came to this country with the same skill and knowledge as these Mexican immigrants and decendents of European immagrants are now useful members of society... hell, most of you are probably one of those decendents)

[Roopoo]

The old man should have given food for the short term whilst showing the brothers how to grow their own food. The transfer of skills is the most important thing. Give a man/woman a fish and you feed him for a day, but give a man/woman a fishing rod and you feed him/her for life (or however the saying goes). No country can keep on giving handouts forever, there must be a better way.

[tanuki]

Originally Posted by HoboGod

I never spoke of blind altruism, the old man's charity was within reason that he remained fat and lazy with more food than he could eat. He could have given more and still remained fatter than the brothers. And these "unskilled and untalented" brothers could become skilled and talented too if they were let into the old man's home as equals. (Immigrants from Europe came to this country with the same skill and knowledge as these Mexican immigrants and decendents of European immagrants are now useful members of society... hell, most of you are probably one of those decendents)

The world owes nobody a job, a home, a car, or even a plate of food. Those are things the individual must work for and earn. If charity and assistance are given, the extent of this is dependant on those who give, not on those who take and then come to expect more later because they believe they are somehow entitled to it. That's carrying noblesse oblige a bit too far.

"I have more than enough food, I do not need your help," replied the old man. "But if you want more food than the scraps I give you, plant your own food in my garden."

"This man was overjoyed and made almost as much food as the fat old man would eat himself. But still, the supply of food was more than either of them could ever eat."

This should have been the end of the old man's involvement. But the old man out of kindness or due to senility stuck his nose further into the problems of others, was asked to do more for others than he wished, and then felt it necessary to make excuses and lie rather than simply say "Sorry but I've already helped to the extent I intended to, goodbye". At no point in the parable does the old man owe someone else anything, and if you look at the second quote directly above the old man makes it clear -he- doesn't need help...despite him being old, fat, and lazy. Sheesh, tired and obese senior citizen trying to coast slowly to the grave and younger people come around asking him to haul food to others and wanting to move in with him cause he has a nice home. Cheeky little devils. Just because the old man happened to have more, others happened to have less and lived nearby, and the old man happened to display an instance of charity...those others came to feel that he owed them something. They mistook charity, kindness and proximity for an obligation to them that they could presume upon again and again to whatever extent they wished...and they wore out their welcome with the old man.

[Xellos-_^]

We mostly been hearing opinion form peole int he US and maybe a few people form other countires.

I personally like to hear how other countries deal with this issue in thier own county and maybe another prospective on this issue.

[AnimeFangirl]

You mean like this? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4969296.stm

[DaFool]

I personally like to hear how other countries deal with this issue in thier own county and maybe another prospective on this issue.

On local inflow:

Many of the 'immigrants' here are are actually expat retirees, who have seen how far their dollar or euro or yen or won takes them. They are seen as injecting into the economy as they often start small businesses.

Philippines was also a waypoint for Vietnamese and North Korean refugees. Many Vietnamese have settled instead of proceeding to the U.S. Like Thai / Chinese, etc., our ASEAN neighbors are seen in similar (if not superior) economic setup so their presence is mainly positive.

The only potential problem was India, as they have gotten a bad reputation of being unfair microfinanciers who loan money to poor entrepreneurs with ridiculous interest ("Five-Six" or six pesos back for every five pesos loaned). We have since cracked down and have been very strict with visas so only businessmen and professionals / entrepreneurs can enter.

In general with any third-world country, the foreigners are richer than the locals (with first-world countries the foreigners are poorer than the locals--hence the term 'immigrant'-- with its poor-economic-condition underpinnings-- better suits first-world countries.)

On local outflow:

Most of the emigrants come from the middle / professional classes. I try not to be one of them, because I generally believe the presence of a strong local middle class is key to stability of a nation...not to mention helps the local economy. The problem is that a few of my relatives married down the social classes while others married up...and the prospect of marrying across the same social classes becomes increasingly rare. Such is that I can't honestly gauge my social status as sometimes I feel masa while other times I feel elite. Sometimes I wonder if there's even a middle class at all besides myself.

When doctors become nurses so they can apply for a green card, when most of the accomplishments are done under foreign funding, sometimes I appreciate the power of China, Inc. as it out-competes not only local industries, but first-world industries as well. Thus I foresee a future in which even low wage immigrants will be out of jobs. They will have no choice but return with their newly acquired skills, like how Bangalore was propped up by the dotcom busters.

[HoboGod]

Originally Posted by Roopoo

The old man should have given food for the short term whilst showing the brothers how to grow their own food. The transfer of skills is the most important thing. Give a man/woman a fish and you feed him for a day, but give a man/woman a fishing rod and you feed him/her for life (or however the saying goes). No country can keep on giving handouts forever, there must be a better way.

Well, that's the problem with this parable, America does not give other countries and their people the means to become equally successful. Quite the opposite, actually, America exploits them as a means of cheap labor. So therefor in my parable, the old man would not teach them his ways and the only way tthe brothers could learn is by being accepted in the old man's home.

Originally Posted by tanuki

The world owes nobody a job, a home, a car, or even a plate of food. Those are things the individual must work for and earn. If charity and assistance are given, the extent of this is dependant on those who give, not on those who take and then come to expect more later because they believe they are somehow entitled to it. That's carrying noblesse oblige a bit too far.

"I have more than enough food, I do not need your help," replied the old man. "But if you want more food than the scraps I give you, plant your own food in my garden."

"This man was overjoyed and made almost as much food as the fat old man would eat himself. But still, the supply of food was more than either of them could ever eat."

This should have been the end of the old man's involvement. But the old man out of kindness or due to senility stuck his nose further into the problems of others, was asked to do more for others than he wished, and then felt it necessary to make excuses and lie rather than simply say "Sorry but I've already helped to the extent I intended to, goodbye". At no point in the parable does the old man owe someone else anything, and if you look at the second quote directly above the old man makes it clear -he- doesn't need help...despite him being old, fat, and lazy. Sheesh, tired and obese senior citizen trying to coast slowly to the grave and younger people come around asking him to haul food to others and wanting to move in with him cause he has a nice home. Cheeky little devils. Just because the old man happened to have more, others happened to have less and lived nearby, and the old man happened to display an instance of charity...those others came to feel that he owed them something. They mistook charity, kindness and proximity for an obligation to them that they could presume upon again and again to whatever extent they wished...and they wore out their welcome with the old man.

That is a very interesting interpetation. To be honest, I don't know why the old man hates the brothers in the end. In that breath, I don't know why some Americans hate immigrants. I only know that is what I see.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by HoboGod

Well, that's the problem with this parable, America does not give other countries and their people the means to become equally successful. Quite the opposite, actually, America exploits them as a means of cheap labor. So therefor in my parable, the old man would not teach them his ways and the only way tthe brothers could learn is by being accepted in the old man's home.

And what exactly is America suppose to teach other countries that they don't know already. Political stability leads to foreign investment which leads to economic success. How difficult is that to understand.

For the whole cheap labor thing. Seems like China is doing pretty well supplying cheap labor for US companies.

That is a very interesting interpetation. To be honest, I don't know why the old man hates the brothers in the end. In that breath, I don't know why some Americans hate immigrants. I only know that is what I see.

As a first generation immgrant whose enitre familiy are also first generation immgrants. I can honestly say the US does not hate immgrants.

Every country in the world experience some form of discrimmination but the US at the least tries to fix the problem. Most countries perfer to keep their head in the sand until the fires start burning. The USA isn't perfect but its better then just any other county out there when dealing with immgrants (legal/illegal) and counteracting discrimmination.

[HoboGod]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

And what exactly is America suppose to teach other countries that they don't know already. Political stability leads to foreign investment which leads to economic success. How difficult is that to understand.

America isn't supposed to teach them anything, that's just the metaphore in the story. America could better these countries by providing well paying jobs.

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

For the whole cheap labor thing. Seems like China is doing pretty well supplying cheap labor for US companies.

China exploits the poor for the benefit of the nation, I don't think that makes a strong example of America helping others by ripping them off.

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

As a first generation immgrant whose enitre familiy are also first generation immgrants. I can honestly say the US does not hate immgrants.

Every country in the world experience some form of discrimmination but the US at the least tries to fix the problem. Most countries perfer to keep their head in the sand until the fires start burning. The USA isn't perfect but its better then just any other county out there when dealing with immgrants (legal/illegal) and counteracting discrimmination.

I'm not implying that everyone hates immigrants, but there has been a large uproar of people in this country that feel immigration is bad and only a silent hush of people telling them they're wrong. That's the part I don't understand.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by HoboGod

America isn't supposed to teach them anything, that's just the metaphore in the story. America could better these countries by providing well paying jobs.

And what kind of jobs would these be? Are our compnaies already outsourcing high paying high tech to countires like india?

I'm not implying that everyone hates immigrants, but there has been a large uproar of people in this country that feel immigration is bad and only a silent hush of people telling them they're wrong. That's the part I don't understand.

If you haven't figure it form of the people who on here it is ILLEGAL immagrants that most people have a problem with not legal immagration. And yes there are people who are against immagration both legal and illegal but so does every other country. At least in the USA those type of people are the minority not the majority.

[Roopoo]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

If you haven't figure it form of the people who on here it is ILLEGAL immagrants that most people have a problem with not legal immagration. And yes there are people who are against immagration both legal and illegal but so does every other country. At least in the USA those type of people are the minority not the majority.

I agree most people are okay with legal immigration because they (the immigrants) have to jump through so many hoops in order to be given entry. However, yes there are some people who will not accept immigrants legal or otherwise and I have found that these people are generally those of very little education who feel threatened by change, by differences, by anything. I know this because my parents were both immigrants to Australia and they found that the more uneducated the person the more racist they were.

[tanuki]

Originally Posted by Roopoo

I agree most people are okay with legal immigration because they (the immigrants) have to jump through so many hoops in order to be given entry. However, yes there are some people who will not accept immigrants legal or otherwise and I have found that these people are generally those of very little education who feel threatened by change, by differences, by anything. I know this because my parents were both immigrants to Australia and they found that the more uneducated the person the more racist they were.

That occurs in almost every country that allows foreigners to immigrate and become citizens. In america the early problem was that boatloads of immigrants who were all coming from the same general area would dock in New York, be processed at Ellis Island, and when they moved in looking for a place to live the people tended to group in clusters. Then you would have a situation where there were italian neighborhoods, irish neighborhoods, and so on. People of similar nationality would simply group together because of the things they had in common like the native language they all spoke fluently. Sometimes various groups wouldn't get along very well with each other, because the things that brought people together in groups served to alienate one group from another. This was most evident in the friction between street gangs. To an extent there are still problems like this today, but immigrants can now more easily and less expensively travel to various cities spread across the country than was once possible. Think this might also apply to Australia? So the further away you move into the country, the less it may matter to people already living there where someone new might have come from.

With immigration reform in the US now, what annoys many americans is that illegal immigrants do not follow government rules on how to legally immigrate and become naturalized citizens. So when US citizens look at worker boycotts to shutdown businesses and protest marches to demand amnesty and citizenship for illegal immigrants, that can really rub people the wrong way. They may be thinking along the lines of "Hey, my ancestors or I came to this country and followed the rules to become a citizen...who do these people think they are that they can enter this country illegally, live and work here illegally, and then have the audacity to demand that they be made legal citizens because they happened to not be caught and deported by the government?". That "Give us citizenship or else ..." approach that their movement has taken looks uncomfortably like extortion, and there can be a political backlash against.

[tanuki]

Originally Posted by HoboGod

That is a very interesting interpetation. To be honest, I don't know why the old man hates the brothers in the end. In that breath, I don't know why some Americans hate immigrants. I only know that is what I see.

My interpretation is probably more modern age than the one originally intended for it. If you think about an old man living alone today with obvious indications that he has some wealth, then apply this to the parable...the old man would probably have a strong sense of wary caution when people would come by asking him to do or give something. Otherwise before the brothers ever approached him the old man could have an abundance of magazine subscriptions he didn't really want, be listed as a prime donor to multiple local and national charitable organizations he doesn't really care about, be the victim of numerous con men and women pushing scams for home improvement work or other things, and the list could go on. After something like that, the old man would probably run away at the first sight of a brother coming towards him...

[Aoie_Emesai]

Originally Posted by tanuki

The world owes nobody a job, a home, a car, or even a plate of food. Those are things the individual must work for and earn. If charity and assistance are given, the extent of this is dependant on those who give, not on those who take and then come to expect more later because they believe they are somehow entitled to it. That's carrying noblesse oblige a bit too far.

"I have more than enough food, I do not need your help," replied the old man. "But if you want more food than the scraps I give you, plant your own food in my garden."

"This man was overjoyed and made almost as much food as the fat old man would eat himself. But still, the supply of food was more than either of them could ever eat."

This should have been the end of the old man's involvement. But the old man out of kindness or due to senility stuck his nose further into the problems of others, was asked to do more for others than he wished, and then felt it necessary to make excuses and lie rather than simply say "Sorry but I've already helped to the extent I intended to, goodbye". At no point in the parable does the old man owe someone else anything, and if you look at the second quote directly above the old man makes it clear -he- doesn't need help...despite him being old, fat, and lazy. Sheesh, tired and obese senior citizen trying to coast slowly to the grave and younger people come around asking him to haul food to others and wanting to move in with him cause he has a nice home. Cheeky little devils. Just because the old man happened to have more, others happened to have less and lived nearby, and the old man happened to display an instance of charity...those others came to feel that he owed them something. They mistook charity, kindness and proximity for an obligation to them that they could presume upon again and again to whatever extent they wished...and they wore out their welcome with the old man.

I agree with you tanuki. NO one deserves free income or anything without paying unless that person actually deserves it. But most of the time I would consider the value of the response invaild and it would have no merit.

Originally Posted by tanuki

That occurs in almost every country that allows foreigners to immigrate and become citizens. In america the early problem was that boatloads of immigrants who were all coming from the same general area would dock in New York, be processed at Ellis Island, and when they moved in looking for a place to live the people tended to group in clusters. Then you would have a situation where there were italian neighborhoods, irish neighborhoods, and so on. People of similar nationality would simply group together because of the things they had in common like the native language they all spoke fluently. Sometimes various groups wouldn't get along very well with each other, because the things that brought people together in groups served to alienate one group from another. This was most evident in the friction between street gangs. To an extent there are still problems like this today, but immigrants can now more easily and less expensively travel to various cities spread across the country than was once possible. Think this might also apply to Australia? So the further away you move into the country, the less it may matter to people already living there where someone new might have come from.

With immigration reform in the US now, what annoys many americans is that illegal immigrants do not follow government rules on how to legally immigrate and become naturalized citizens. So when US citizens look at worker boycotts to shutdown businesses and protest marches to demand amnesty and citizenship for illegal immigrants, that can really rub people the wrong way. They may be thinking along the lines of "Hey, my ancestors or I came to this country and followed the rules to become a citizen...who do these people think they are that they can enter this country illegally, live and work here illegally, and then have the audacity to demand that they be made legal citizens because they happened to not be caught and deported by the government?". That "Give us citizenship or else ..." approach that their movement has taken looks uncomfortably like extortion, and there can be a political backlash against.

Tanuki, it seems that you feel very strongly against illegal immigrations. But you prove your point quite well and I also agree with your reasoning too. Tanuki, do you speak from personal experiences or just from education and personal beliefs? Now I know that personal beliefs seems to out power regular judgements, but we have our own beliefs and ideal how the world should run, so i'll just be quiet here.

I guess more time is required to solve this problem. But while we wait, i'll just watch and read. ^_^