[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Leafsnail]

I think it's implied that Kyrie stabbed the people in the guesthouse (which presumably would have been Maria, Nanjo, Genji and maybe Kumasawa).

There is room for fake deaths in some episodes, mainly episode 2 where Rosa always rushes Battler out of the room to prevent him from investigating anything. But that doesn't apply to episode 4 at all - Battler is all alone and can inspect stuff as much as he likes, and he'd probably carefully check to see if anyone is still alive.

[AuraTwilight]

We're talking 20+ tons of bombs right?(from what Yasu told us). If all of that went off(or heck even a little of it) do you really think Maria's 9 year old body will survive that explosion?

According to Ange's testimony in the 8th game, not so much of a corpse was remaining.


It's therefore logical to argue that this argument is rendered mute, since there's no corpse to actually examine.

A jawbone is found after the explosion. Your argument is invalid.

You are incompetent, Ushiromiya Battler!!!!!!!!!!!!!


No, seriously. Battler never declares or even remotely uses the detective authority granted to him. We(and you) just ASSUMES that he uses the authority. But it's pretty clear when Bernkastel constantly mocks Battler over and over.


It's why she created Furudo Erika in the first place.

I mean heck, we get an example of Battler's flaws as a detective in the very first game. Will points it out in Yasu's Confession, since Battler never actually examined Shannon, she was able to get away with planting a false corpse.

Knox's 8th, it is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not PRESENTED! Until now, you have been the DETECTIVE! Was it ever shown that you were not the detective this time, and that you were an observer with a subjective VIEWPOINT?!! Unless it was, you do not have the right to falsify your point of VIEW!!

That's from Episode 5. You're wrong, stop using red for stuff that isn't true, it makes you look like an idiot.

He probably can tell a corpse from a sleeping person so long as he observes it. But he can't tell the nature of death. If Maria's comatose, that's a perfect way of throwing off some average 16 year old boy more interested in oppai than detective work XD.

Even if you grant him detective's authority, that doesn't enable him to autopsy corpses. That's why Nanjo's there right?

Detective's Authority allows the autopsy of corpses, as Erika demonstrates. Nanjo is a red herring, since he's explicitly working for Yasu. Anyone would be able to tell a corpse from a comatose person. Haven't you ever heard of taking a damn pulse?

My theory can't be denied by any of the reds made in the Fourth game in particular. It's highly suggested by the story's dialogue that Maria's death is very different from the others.(Which is why the 3rd game might be seen as the biggest forgery, given her cruel death)


Neither her death, or cause of reasoning was declared in red. Leaving us able to speculate. And all evidence points highly to her being comatose or drugged to sleep, dying "peacefully" when the bomb goes off.

Maria's death is confirmed on the level of red because Battler observed her as dead. In the first four games, his perspective is absolutely correct at all times, as confirmed by Dlanor in episode 5. You are wrong. You are even more incompetent than Battler. In an actual game you'd of choked before making any of your reds, stop trying to use it.

[rogerpepitone]

Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice

It's never confirmed in red that Maria died by poisoning. The scene in question, Battler found Maria by the parlor(while he was the last remaining survivor in the 4th game). Even though Battler examined the body, he's no doctor, he's not using the detective's authority. It's Battler's naive deductions and can't be elevated to the level of red truth.

What we do know, was that Maria seemed "peaceful" in her "death". She wasn't really dead(and this isn't the fake death drug) but rather, natural sleeping pills. The culprit drugged Maria and either she fell comatose or she's deeply asleep.

If she fell comatose, she's still technically "alive" even if she's brain dead.(That's why Battler survives, even through Tohya). If she's merely asleep, obviously she's alive.

I don't buy it. Keeping somebody in a comatose state with drugs is tricky; I don't think that keeping somebody out for 24 hours without continual interference is possible. And I don't buy her faking it. Battler kept searching around the island for the 24 hours. Could Maria have believably snuck off to get food without getting caught or accidentally leaving something out, or even just not gotten bored through that day?

Besides, even if she was, how does that change anything?

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by rogerpepitone

Besides, even if she was, how does that change anything?

yep, it changes nothing, because no matter what:

"[...] right now, there is no one other than you on this island. The only one alive on this island is you. Nothing outside the island can interfere."

So any theory involving Maria waking up and getting outside the explosion radius in EP4 is completely out of question.

[ErenselTheJester]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

You are even more incompetent than Battler. In an actual game you'd of choked before making any of your reds, stop trying to use it.

Jesus, Twilight, calm down. You are starting to make Meta- statements.

[AuraTwilight]

I am calm. But by his own private request, ALPHA claims he learns when I'm firm and aggressive.

[ALPHA-Beatrice]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

I am calm. But by his own private request, ALPHA claims he learns when I'm firm and aggressive.

As you say, the jawline was found in the explosion. Doesn't that suggest that Lady MARIA was caught in the explosion? Specifically, the first two games outline that very possibility.

Even if Battler is the "Detective", Maria's death isn't declared in the Red Truth during that game.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice

As you say, the jawline was found in the explosion. Doesn't that suggest that Lady MARIA was caught in the explosion? Specifically, the first two games outline that very possibility.

Even if Battler is the "Detective", Maria's death isn't declared in the Red Truth during that game.

Her body (or at least her head) was turned into shreds. Most likely due to the bomb. Supposing that the blue truth is true, we know nothing about her time of death, as after the explosion it was impossible to tell if a living Maria got cought in the explosion or just her corpse.

Also: There is no indication that anyone aside from Rosa would try to keep Maria alive and save her from the bomb and there is also no indication that anyone aside from Yasu would try to spare Maria until the bomb explodes.

So what is your basis to make your claim?

[AuraTwilight]

As you say, the jawline was found in the explosion. Doesn't that suggest that Lady MARIA was caught in the explosion? Specifically, the first two games outline that very possibility.

She's caught in the explosion regardless. Bombs tear apart corpses as well as living people.

Even if Battler is the "Detective", Maria's death isn't declared in the Red Truth during that game.

The Detective's perspective is as good as the red. If Battler physically sees a person and determines them to be dead, he is correct. That is the point of the Detective's Authority.

[theforgot3n1]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

Her body (or at least her head) was turned into shreds. Most likely due to the bomb. Supposing that the blue truth is true, we know nothing about her time of death, as after the explosion it was impossible to tell if a living Maria got cought in the explosion or just her corpse.

Also: There is no indication that anyone aside from Rosa would try to keep Maria alive and save her from the bomb and there is also no indication that anyone aside from Yasu would try to spare Maria until the bomb explodes.

So what is your basis to make your claim?

Maria could have ripped her jaw out and placed it where it was after the explosion. Carefully making sure that it would look like she was caught in the blast. No red counters this for ep 3.

I'm swag.

:=)

[Witch of Uncertainty]

Originally Posted by theforgot3n1

Maria could have ripped her jaw out and placed it where it was after the explosion. Carefully making sure that it would look like she was caught in the blast. No red counters this for ep 3.

I'm swag.

:=)

I'm crying. This physically hurts lol.

[theforgot3n1]

Originally Posted by Witch of Uncertainty

I'm crying. This physically hurts lol.

Let me brush it up a little then: Maria and another person survived the blast. However, they get into a fight over whether a human or witch caused it. In the fight, Maria's jaw is punched off, but she manages to flee. The other person tinkered her jaw to make it seem like she was caught in the blast. Both survived the Rokkenjima accident.

This is possible.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by theforgot3n1

Let me brush it up a little then: Maria and another person survived the blast. However, they get into a fight over whether a human or witch caused it. In the fight, Maria's jaw is punched off, but she manages to flee. The other person tinkered her jaw to make it seem like she was caught in the blast. Both survived the Rokkenjima accident.

This is possible.

Oh it's no mystery anymore? Then: 100 men from Sumadera infiltrated the Rokkenjima estate and are the real culprits. All of them managed to flee without ever getting seen by the survivors. Since no one witnessed them and was able to say anything about them, they are not considered to be "existing", i.e. they are not humans. The goats represent them and the Witches are the leaders of the attackers... oh and Beatrice is Asumu that just faked her death and now after seeing that Rudolph got together with Kyrie, wants revenge and allied herself with Sumadera.

It's a tie


And if it IS a Mystery?

Knox's 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented!


My freak theory actually has clues! Because it already happened! See: When They Cry 1: Higurashi no naku koro ni.

[battle22]

Originally Posted by theforgot3n1

Let me brush it up a little then: Maria and another person survived the blast. However, they get into a fight over whether a human or witch caused it. In the fight, Maria's jaw is punched off, but she manages to flee. The other person tinkered her jaw to make it seem like she was caught in the blast. Both survived the Rokkenjima accident.

This is possible.

What a mad theory. PUNCHED OFF? You don't just PUNCH someone's jaw off. And if such ridiculous idea is true, do you really think she would survive it?

Knox Whatever : Let's not bullshit please.

Edit : I wish people stopped using the Red Truth and the Gold Truth on their ridiculous theories. It's contradicting the game and I gotta agree with Twilight, it does make one look like an idiot.

[theforgot3n1]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

Oh it's no mystery anymore? Then: 100 men from Sumadera infiltrated the Rokkenjima estate and are the real culprits. All of them managed to flee without ever getting seen by the survivors. Since no one witnessed them and was able to say anything about them, they are not considered to be "existing", i.e. they are not humans. The goats represent them and the Witches are the leaders of the attackers... oh and Beatrice is Asumu that just faked her death and now after seeing that Rudolph got together with Kyrie, wants revenge and allied herself with Sumadera.

It's a tie


And if it IS a Mystery?

Knox's 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented!


My freak theory actually has clues! Because it already happened! See: When They Cry 1: Higurashi no naku koro ni.

It's a tie.

Which freak theory by the way?

What a mad theory. PUNCHED OFF? You don't just PUNCH someone's jaw off. And if such ridiculous idea is true, do you really think she would survive it?

Knox Whatever : Let's not bullshit please.

Edit : I wish people stopped using the Red Truth and the Gold Truth on their ridiculous theories. It's contradicting the game and I gotta agree with Twilight, it does make one look like an idiot.

I know I know... I was just joking. I won't overuse the colors.
The madness of the theory reminds me of the one Battler used with exploding candies in ep 4. :P

She might be able to survive it though, haha, IF NANJO HELPED HER!

Sorry.

How does using the gold truth contradict the game though? Isn't it simply presenting an idea that is a possible interpretation of the work? Like with Dumbledore being gay.

[battle22]

Gold Truth is a very vague thing, it's still debatable about what the meaning of it is.

[ALPHA-Beatrice]

Originally Posted by battle22

Gold Truth is a very vague thing, it's still debatable about what the meaning of it is.

I happen to concur with the theory Ryukishi stated at the end of the 8th Novel. The Gold Truth is a consensus reached by all those who "know" a certain truth. Battler's Gold Truth was effective, because when everyone discovers Kinzo's body, they'll concur to it. Even if it's physically possible to have a double of a guy with 6 toes. Said double would be incredibly rare, and highly unlikely to have Kinzo's exact physique.

[battle22]

^ It's very subjective. Us, the readers, cannot possibly use it if that is the definition of Gold Truth. I claim I reached the truth, but how can I prove it? As long as I cannot do that, I will not be able to use this Gold Truth.

Furthermore, it's pretty much useless for a discussion such as this. We do not need Gold Truth to present theories or deny them. It's something exclusive to the characters.

[ALPHA-Beatrice]

Originally Posted by battle22

^ It's very subjective. Us, the readers, cannot possibly use it if that is the definition of Gold Truth. I claim I reached the truth, but how can I prove it? As long as I cannot do that, I will not be able to use this Gold Truth.

Furthermore, it's pretty much useless for a discussion such as this. We do not need Gold Truth to present theories or deny them. It's something exclusive to the characters.

Is your Seacat a way of creating a new Game based off the 8 Novels? If so, wouldn't that be similar to Battler's 6th game that he used to reveal the truth?

[theforgot3n1]

Originally Posted by battle22

Furthermore, it's pretty much useless for a discussion such as this. We do not need Gold Truth to present theories or deny them. It's something exclusive to the characters.

The meta world is interesting as well.

I happen to concur with the theory Ryukishi stated at the end of the 8th Novel. The Gold Truth is a consensus reached by all those who "know" a certain truth. Battler's Gold Truth was effective, because when everyone discovers Kinzo's body, they'll concur to it. Even if it's physically possible to have a double of a guy with 6 toes. Said double would be incredibly rare, and highly unlikely to have Kinzo's exact physique.

Still kind of odd that witches would yield to such a unstable "truth". Dlanor could have kept arguing against Battler if that is definition of golden truth. And if they were fated to find Kinzo's body later anyway, and it was stated in red that he was dead, then he should have been required to use a red to make Dlanor give up that thread. It is, technically, possible for Kinzo to be alive...