Character Discussion - Kallen

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by yondy

She's a freedom fighter not a terrorist. There's nothing immoral about killing/geassing your enemy(ie a brittanian soldier), this is WAR. If Lelouch geassed some innocent civilians and she found out about it, there's no doubt she's going to stop him. When Lelouch tried to hostage Kaguya and the rest of the World leaders back in ep. 22, she was willing to take him down.

not quite
she know he uses it on people not related (the chinese guy for example) and she doesnt actually do anything about it
but she sure as hell wouldnt stand for what he is doing now (turning an entire army of people into he's personal slaves (thats the word he uses)
while suzaku who earlier in the season couldnt bring himself to use refrain on her becouse it would make him like lelouch now seems perfectly content to help him do it and crash any who oppose
thats why i say suzaku has clearly lost it
he isnt the same as kallen was
kallen was never that far gone

[yondy]

Originally Posted by Vakir

Do you even know what terrorism IS?

Mind you, one can argue that every government ever implemented that gives punishment for crimes and even every superhero EVER are technically terrorists.

She's a terrorist. Stop twisting shit based on the all-American apple pie bullshit people always deal out now.

I'm quite aware that what they have they done was technically terrorism. The problem is, the current notion about terrorists is that they are murderers who terrorizes innocent civilians, that's why I don't like people using that word to people who sacrifices their lives to free their country from invaders.

[ZeroSama]

Originally Posted by yondy

I'm quite aware that what they have they done was technically terrorism. The problem is, the current notion about terrorists is that they are murderers who terrorizes innocent civilians, that's why I don't like people using that word to people who sacrifices their lives to free their country from invaders.

By that logic the indians were valiant freedom fighters against the invading hordes of white settlers.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by yondy

She's a freedom fighter not a terrorist. There's nothing immoral about killing/geassing your enemy(ie a brittanian soldier), this is WAR. If Lelouch geassed some innocent civilians and she found out about it, there's no doubt she's going to stop him. When Lelouch tried to hostage Kaguya and the rest of the World leaders back in ep. 22, she was willing to take him down.

Because she choose the BK and the UFN, not Lelouch. Thus, the stairway scene.

Originally Posted by yondy

I'm quite aware that what they have they done was technically terrorism. The problem is, the current notion about terrorists is that they are murderers who terrorizes innocent civilians, that's why I don't like people using that word to people who sacrifices their lives to free their country from invaders.

At this rate, there are no terrorists. Only freedom fighters. I'm pretty sure everyone has an excuse, and the BK sure didn't seem that concerned about the fact their little avalanche killed a lot of civilians like Shirley's father.

[kir44n]

Forget the terms "Freedom Fighter", "Terrorist" and "Soldier" for a moment. There are important distinctions for all to keep them separate, but they are all sub-divisions of something I will simply characterize as the "fighter". I for instance will consider Kallen to have been at varying points in her "career" been each one of these sub-divisions. When Kallen helped capture what she believed to be a chemical weapon, that qualifies as "Terrorist". When she lead her double-life following Zero, she was a "Freedom Fighter". When she gave up "Stadtfeld" and chose to be Kozuki Kallen in permanence, she chose to be a "soldier".

There is a theme that ties all these things together, and it is that main theme of "fighter" (or more aptly, warrior) that fits Kallen the most. And anytime any chooses this as there path in life, be it any of the sub-divisions, they must acknowledge the blood on their hands.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by yondy

I'm quite aware that what they have they done was technically terrorism. The problem is, the current notion about terrorists is that they are murderers who terrorizes innocent civilians, that's why I don't like people using that word to people who sacrifices their lives to free their country from invaders.

They were already killing britannian civilians before episode 1 of S1. Lelouch said that himself. He told them that they would never achieve anything if they simply just targeted civilians and infrastructure.

[youngde]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

They were already killing britannian civilians before episode 1 of S1. Lelouch said that himself. He told them that they would never achieve anything if they simply just targeted civilians and infrastructure.

It is true that Kallen was a terrorist prior to the series since she killed innocent people, but that changed when she became a BK. Under Lelouch's leadership, they never delibrately attacked civilians (the people at Narita were an accident). Also, I think it's interesting that Kallen is one of the few characters that actually ever expressed regret about killing people (season 1, episode 13).

The main difference between the first and second seasons for Kallen is that she now knows about Geass. But she always assumed that Lelouch never used it on his allies or innocent people prior to episode 19 (which, up to that point, he hadn't, but lied to her about it to keep her safe). In fact, to the best of my knowledge the only person she knew that Lelouch had used Geass on in the second season was the Chinese Eunech.

I guess my whole point is that once Kallen hurt innocent people, largely because she saw no other way to fight for her people's freedom, but she still regretted it. When she was given another way that didn't attack civilians, she took it.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by youngde

It is true that Kallen was a terrorist prior to the series since she killed innocent people, but that changed when she became a BK. Under Lelouch's leadership, they never delibrately attacked civilians (the people at Narita were an accident).

No, they were collateral damage. They knew what they were doing. Well, Lelouch did.

The main difference between the first and second seasons for Kallen is that she now knows about Geass. But she always assumed that Lelouch never used it on his allies or innocent people prior to episode 19 (which, up to that point, he hadn't, but lied to her about it to keep her safe). In fact, to the best of my knowledge the only person she knew that Lelouch had used Geass on in the second season was the Chinese Eunech.

He used it on her. Granted, it was before the creation of the BK.

[bladeofdarkness]

No, they were collateral damage. They knew what they were doing. Well, Lelouch did.

he said it was more powerfull then expected

He used it on her. Granted, it was before the creation of the BK

but not in a really bad way
granted its an invasion of privcey but its not much when you consider the rest

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by youngde

It is true that Kallen was a terrorist prior to the series since she killed innocent people, but that changed when she became a BK. Under Lelouch's leadership, they never delibrately attacked civilians (the people at Narita were an accident). Also, I think it's interesting that Kallen is one of the few characters that actually ever expressed regret about killing people (season 1, episode 13).

Doesn't change the fact that she was originally a terrorist. Simple as that. To alter the definition of a word is just ridiculous and gets no where. The general definition of a terrorist is someone who uses violence for political purposes.

And to quote a movie, "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter." It's always going to look like that.

But this is not the issue anyways.

The main difference between the first and second seasons for Kallen is that she now knows about Geass. But she always assumed that Lelouch never used it on his allies or innocent people prior to episode 19 (which, up to that point, he hadn't, but lied to her about it to keep her safe). In fact, to the best of my knowledge the only person she knew that Lelouch had used Geass on in the second season was the Chinese Eunech.

I don't think she assumed anything at all given the fact that Lelouch rarely used his geass. However she should be aware that the big operations he is able to carry out (such as collapse of the settlement) was only possible by geassing civilians to do it but that too is irrelevant anyways...does she know that she was geassed by him?

he said it was more powerfull then expected

Which meant that it worked even better because it wiped out a huge portion of Cornelia's army.

Besides, there's no way you can cause a giant mudslide right next to a town at the bottom of the hill and expect no collateral damage.

[youngde]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

No, they were collateral damage. They knew what they were doing. Well, Lelouch did.


He used it on her. Granted, it was before the creation of the BK.

I think most soldiers know that innocent people will die in a war. It's why war should be avoided whenever possible; but there are some wars that need to be fought, such as when a dictorship invades and regulates people to second-class citizens with few rights. However, Kallen (and the BK) no longer delibrately targeted civilians. Even Lelouch commented that the landslide was bigger than he expected; he certainly didn't mean to kill innocent people.

Kallen wasn't technically his ally at that point. In fact, he hardly knew her. I'm sure that if he had known her better, he would not have done it. Also, I'm not sure if Kallen ever knew she was Geassed; Lelouch told her that he didn't use it to make her loyal, but not that he didn't use it on her. (Then again, it may be implied by the fact that he would have his contact out when he would talk to her.)

[youngde]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

The general definition of a terrorist is someone who uses violence for political purposes.



I don't think she assumed anything at all given the fact that Lelouch rarely used his geass. However she should be aware that the big operations he is able to carry out (such as collapse of the settlement) was only possible by geassing civilians to do it but that too is irrelevant anyways...does she know that she was geassed by him?

We'll have to agree to disagree on the definition of a terrorist. I think it's somebody that targets innocent people (i.e., non-combatants) with violence in order to terrorize people into submittance.

I doubt ordinary citizens would be allowed into such sensitive areas asa to collapse the settlement. At the very least they were Britanninan security forces. Otherwise they wouldn't have had guns.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by youngde

We'll have to agree to disagree on the definition of a terrorist. I think it's somebody that targets innocent people (i.e., non-combatants) with violence in order to terrorize people into submittance.

Right because YOUR definition carries much more weight than what the official definition of a terrorist is.

You missed my point in that if you start changing the definition of the words from what they really are to match your argument, you aren't getting anywhere.

I doubt ordinary citizens would be allowed into such sensitive areas asa to collapse the settlement. At the very least they were Britanninan security forces. Otherwise they wouldn't have had guns.

So that makes it better then? It's okay to kill cops?

[Orga777]

Originally Posted by youngde

We'll have to agree to disagree on the definition of a terrorist. I think it's somebody that targets innocent people (i.e., non-combatants) with violence in order to terrorize people into submittance.

I doubt ordinary citizens would be allowed into such sensitive areas asa to collapse the settlement. At the very least they were Britanninan security forces. Otherwise they wouldn't have had guns.

I would have to agree actually. Lets look at it this way. Pearl Harbor was attacked, but it wasn't an act of Terrorism. It was pretty much an act of war. After all, it WAS a US military base that was attacked for strategic purposes. Compare that to... well, anything else that you consider terrorism these days. There are plenty. Most target civilians.

[youngde]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

Right because YOUR definition carries much more weight than what the official definition of a terrorist is.

You missed my point in that if you start changing the definition of the words from what they really are to match your argument, you aren't getting anywhere.



So that makes it better then? It's okay to kill cops?

My point was that Kallen (and other BK) used to target civilians, but now they don't. Her time as a BK changed her philosophy of the proper way to fight for your country's freedom. I wasn't actually trying to define the word terrorist, at all.

I don't see that much difference between enemy military and enemy police during war time. Both will shot you if you give them the chance.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by youngde

I think most soldiers know that innocent people will die in a war. It's why war should be avoided whenever possible; but there are some wars that need to be fought, such as when a dictorship invades and regulates people to second-class citizens with few rights. However, Kallen (and the BK) no longer delibrately targeted civilians. Even Lelouch commented that the landslide was bigger than he expected; he certainly didn't mean to kill innocent people.

Kallen wasn't technically his ally at that point. In fact, he hardly knew her. I'm sure that if he had known her better, he would not have done it. Also, I'm not sure if Kallen ever knew she was Geassed; Lelouch told her that he didn't use it to make her loyal, but not that he didn't use it on her. (Then again, it may be implied by the fact that he would have his contact out when he would talk to her.)

He didn't have a problem using it on Sayoko, whom he'd known for years.

Originally Posted by youngde

We'll have to agree to disagree on the definition of a terrorist. I think it's somebody that targets innocent people (i.e., non-combatants) with violence in order to terrorize people into submittance.

I doubt ordinary citizens would be allowed into such sensitive areas asa to collapse the settlement. At the very least they were Britanninan security forces. Otherwise they wouldn't have had guns.

What was so sensitive about it? It was a town, not a military base. Or do you mean the risks of mudslides? They were nil, unless some rat bastard planted a large quantity of powerful explosives in the right places and detonated them. It's no worse than Tokyo's collapsible platforms.

[Revolutionist]

Kallen is nothing more than a common Terrorist, her goals seemed noble but in the end she was just following on the footsteps of her terrorist brother. She stole chemical weapons to use against Britannian citizens, then she massacred thousands of civilians both Japanese and Britannian at Narita with a huge landslide.
She lived a double life, and hid their identy. She wasn't part of a regular army, and that my friends = TERRORIST.

[youngde]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

He didn't have a problem using it on Sayoko, whom he'd known for years.


What was so sensitive about it? It was a town, not a military base. Or do you mean the risks of mudslides? They were nil, unless some rat bastard planted a large quantity of powerful explosives in the right places and detonated them. It's no worse than Tokyo's collapsible platforms.

I'll concede that he used it on Sayoko, although he didn't really make her do anything other than play a recording.

Even if it is a town, a city is not just going to let anyone go into an area that if you press the wrong button you can collapse a portion of the city. It would be a secure area to some degree.

[Orga777]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

Kallen is nothing more than a common Terrorist, her goals seemed noble but in the end she was just following on the footsteps of her terrorist brother. She stole chemical weapons to use against Britannian citizens, then she massacred thousands of civilians both Japanese and Britannian at Narita with a huge landslide.
She lived a double life, and hid their identy. She wasn't part of a regular army, and that my friends = TERRORIST.

Well, she WAS a Terrorist. But NOW she isn't. Since the UFN is officially recognized as a set of nations now and that is who she fights for.

[Ruvixur]

Originally Posted by Orga777

Well, she WAS a Terrorist. But NOW she isn't. Since the UFN is officially recognized as a set of nations now and that is who she fights for.

Well, there are those who think, that everyone who is tainted in blood and did something bad should die ( coughOugibasherscough).
But this way everyone from "with face" characters will die.