(L+CR) Chihayafuru

[Guardian Enzo]

Originally Posted by Kanon

I don't think so at all. Chihaya is basically the female counterpart of a typical shounen lead (single-minded, enthusiastic, completely oblivious when it comes to romance, etc...) and while some people dislike that character archetype, there are also a lot who like them. While I do appreciate Chihaya's beauty (in fact, I think she's the prettiest character of the season, nay, the year), it's not the reason I love her so much. I'd say a fairly decent proof that I'm not being hypocritical is that I (and a lot of others) fell in love with her during the flashback episodes, where she dressed and looked like a boy. I was later very relieved that only her exterior appearance changed once we got back to the present. If she hadn't been the same Chihaya, I may have not liked her as much, gorgeous or not.

What you said does apply to a lot of other characters, just not Chihaya in my opinion. It's absolutely true in Adams' case, I doubt I would like her much if she wasn't so hot. Incidentally, I'd have an easier time putting up with Park if she was prettier (she has a very shitty and annoying personality - that is the problem).

In all honesty, Chihaya was adorable when she was in sixth grade, too, and even if she hadn't been, the mere fact that she was a girl would have been enough to get her a lot of extra slack. Just my un-provable take, and reflective of how you or any other specific viewer might see it.

[sikvod00]

^ I'm one of those who thought young Chihaya was absolutely adorable, especially with that short hair. I was a little (read: A LITTLE) disappointed when she grew it out and turned into a real beauty. Her physical appearance as a tomboyish sixth grader really matched her personality, as opposed to the present where it causes nothing but angst to people like Taichi.

[Kirarakim]

First of all I think there is some confusion here. Taichi DOES love Karuta. I thought episode 8 made that abundantly clear. He loves it even if he isn't the best but he does get excited when he can win.

But loving Karuta doesn't mean he can't be in love with Chihaya too. The two are not mutually exclusive. Also Taichi's momentary sadness is because of the competition of Arata in Chihaya's heart, he is very much a part of the group when it comes to Karuta. And so far he's been a good leader in ways, Chihaya cannot.

Chihaya's passion motivates them, but Taichi is the practical leader. If anything Chihaya & Taichi complement each other.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

In all honesty, Chihaya was adorable when she was in sixth grade, too, and even if she hadn't been, the mere fact that she was a girl would have been enough to get her a lot of extra slack.

I agree with you here, and I think it goes back to what I wrote to Kirarakim pertaining to "identify-with" characters.

When male viewers watch a Shonen show with a male lead, I think they have a tendency to identify-with that male lead. So the sillier and more foolish things he does and says gets amplified, because the male viewer sometimes thinks (even if he doesn't say it outright), 'Man, I could handle that situation so much better if I was in Ichigo/Goku/Luffy/Naruto's shoes.'

But if you take that shonen hero personality, and put it into a female character in a different genre, then what happens is that it's largely just the endearing aspects of it that the male viewer now notices.

We saw this work wonderfully with Ohana in Hanasaku Iroha, and now we're seeing it work wonderfully with Chihaya in Chihayafuru.

Should Chihayafuru sell well on DVD/Blu-Ray, I wouldn't be surprised to see more anime heroines like Ohana and Chihaya (Hanasaku Iroha was already a significant sales success).

[Guardian Enzo]

There are definite similarities between Ohana and Chihaya, and it's been a popular comparison for that reason. But I'd argue that Chihaya is much more in the mold of a traditional shounen lead, whereas Ohana is actually a fairly typical shoujo character. They're both genki and cute, but Ohana is actually a pretty standard plucky girl, a trope we've seen countless times. She moons over romance and her ineptitude at it, she plows ahead despite all obstacles, she gets involved in everyone's business because she always wants to help (and thinks she knows best).

Chihaya, OTOH, is a basically a jock. She's in love with one thing and one thing only, her sport, and is oblivious to everything else. Unlike Ohana whose radar is always attuned to human relationships and behavior, Chihaya superficially seems to care less about all that. She's a good person and has a sense of justice, but just doesn't have much time for wasting on stuff like how people feel. I think she's actually a lot more like Honda Gorou than Ohana Matsumae.

[LKK]

I agree with Enzo about Chihaya. Case in point, while I watched this week's Phi Brain, I found myself thinking how like Chihaya that show's male lead, Kaito, is. Both are so focused and enamored of their respective "sport" (karuta and puzzle-solving) that they don't see anything else in any depth including the obvious feelings that their closest friends has for them.

[Dawnstorm]

Originally Posted by hyperborealis

...you assume a dualist analytical framework: attitude versus skills. Triple R does this too, when he talks about brain versus heart. But any binary system leaves out Arata, and is incomplete.

It is incomplete. A few words about "social constituents". They constitute some bigger social grouping. The Chihaya-Taichi social consitute, for example, constitutes (together with the other members) the karuta club, but they also (together with Arata) constitute the Chihaya-Taichi-Arata, which in turn has no immediate upper level - thus its status as a consituent is not as clear cut. (Note that Taichi-Chihaya as a social grouping also exists apart from the club or Taichi-Chihaya-Arata.)

For example, the grouping "Taichi-Chihaya" is relevant to the social grouping "Taichi's family", but it's not a consituent therein, because Chihaya is not part of their family. (Should they marry, this would change - and the very promise/trheat of that has an effect of it).

So, I left out Arata, here, because I was specifically only talking about Taichi's and Chihaya's complementarity, which was in place before they even met Arata, and it hasn't changed that much, even though the things they have to deal with change.

Now, once Taichi decided to help Chihaya make the club, they became a consitutent of the club. It's their interaction, both their qualities, that keep the club alive.

So perhaps the social constituent exists really between Chihaya and the club itself? And Taichi is nearly superfluous?

Well, the club itself is a social consitutent (and it's one of many that consitute the school). So look at what actually happens: their provisory advisor does not want Chihaya as captain, and none of the other members has any doubt that it has to be Taichi. Neither do they contest Chihaya's status as "captain". Basically, they accept a dual leadership, leaving the practical/organisational to Taichi, and the inspirational to Chihaya.

When Nishida tells Chihaya that every group needs someone bossy, he can lean back and do so, because Taichi is there to reign her in when she pushes too far. The implication is that groups need others, too, to balance that.

Without Chihaya, there would be no club. But without Taichi there would be no club either. And I simply don't think it's down to any easily identifiable skill of either Taichi and Chihaya. I put it down to Taichi-Chihaya as a constituent; something that is only possible when they come together.

Chihaya-Taichi is also a constituent in Arata-Chihaya-Taichi, but I'm not going to talk about that right now (time issues). Also, Arata clearly has an indirect influence on the club, via the impression made on Chihaya (and to a lesser extent Taichi... probably). But that's another topic, too.

(Another note: the relations in a social consituent needn't be complementary; all they need to be is stable.)

Sorry for bringing up "social constituents". I feel it's complicating things too much to talk in these terms, as I have to talk about the terminology, too, to be understood. And that's off-topic. Better to use more conventional terminology, I think.

As you say regarding better communication, the solution for Chihaya is not to depend on Taichi to meliorate her social weakness, but to improve on those skills for herself. Her goal ought to be to make Taichi, at least in this respect, completely superfluous.

A person has finite time and energy: how much do you allocate on improving your weaknesses, and how much do you allocate to doing what you're good at? It's not that easy to tell, is it?

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

(Why didn't Chihaya make friends in the karuta society she'd used to practise? It's at least partly because - to her - winning was a means to keep up that social consituent. She simply liked her role therein a lot.)

Originally Posted by hyperborealis

? Please explain.

I don't remember in which episode exactly, but after having her club, Chihaya said something like "I'm no longer alone." Yet, she's been playing karuta for three years, improving her game. With whom has she played? And why did she feel alone there? If her interest were primarily karuta, is it plausible that she fails to make friends in a freakin' karuta society?

Chihaya is mentally stuck in Arata-Chihaya-Taichi. They promised to play again once they got better, and for that reason she's using the karuta society. She forms an attachment to the sensei, but nobody else seems to stand out. I don't think her fixation on that promise explains everything, but it's pretty much what the show gives us to work with. Goal centred Chihaya has tunnel vision, and tunnel vision makes her unintentionally brush off any attempt at contact others might make (as we have seen with track-team girl in episode one).

Summary: The karuta society is a means for improving. She's improving to be able to play with her friends again (according to the terms of the promise). This implies that she's now playing karuta with insignificant strangers. Which is not an attitude conducive to making friends. [Note that Chihaya would never call them insignificant strangers; that's just how she treats them when her tunnel vision points elsewhere.]

[Flower]

Interesting direction the thread is taking ... primarily focusing (it seems) around Chihaya maturing in the best possible way and that this will very likely be one of the main themes of the series (which I agree with btw).

A conversation I was having with Triple R on a similar note relates to this, I think ... I had thought of Chihaya's "asexuality" not so much in the context of her being so caught up in Karuta that she does not care about "romantic issues" ... but moreso as a little bit of a state of "arrested development", I guess. I have a feeling that part of her maturing into a both a better player and a more integral person will involve her ... umm ... let's see ... not so much as having Karuta be the main influence in her life, but having her life be the main influence in Karuta, if you get my meaning.

As with anything IRL it is easy to break it down intellectually into parts for ease of identification and lose track of the whole picture - or the way one expresses it to another makes it seem as if the speaker has lost perspective of the whole ... err ... organic reality of the matter. But b/c people use over analytical framework in arranging and articulating aspects of a larger whole it does not mean that they have necessarily actually lost sight of the bigger picture. The heart vs. brain contrast or the attitude vs. skills contrast are simply tools to help organize data, and useful tools at times. But like all tools they are limited in their applications.

Chihaya (and probably the other characters in the series) are ideally, that is I would hope this will happen, going to grow into more integral and whole people, and THAT will be the main factor which will affect their interests (whatever they are - another person, Karuta, ancient literature, etc.) as opposed to the cart being placed before the horse, so to speak.

Kudos to the creators of the series for making the characters a close reflection to how things are IRL....

[hyperborealis]

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

Now, once Taichi decided to help Chihaya make the club, they became a consitutent of the club. It's their interaction, both their qualities, that keep the club alive.

Well, the club itself is a social consitutent (and it's one of many that consitute the school). So look at what actually happens: their provisory advisor does not want Chihaya as captain, and none of the other members has any doubt that it has to be Taichi. Neither do they contest Chihaya's status as "captain". Basically, they accept a dual leadership, leaving the practical/organisational to Taichi, and the inspirational to Chihaya.

When Nishida tells Chihaya that every group needs someone bossy, he can lean back and do so, because Taichi is there to reign her in when she pushes too far. The implication is that groups need others, too, to balance that.

Without Chihaya, there would be no club. But without Taichi there would be no club either. And I simply don't think it's down to any easily identifiable skill of either Taichi and Chihaya. I put it down to Taichi-Chihaya as a constituent; something that is only possible when they come together.

Interesting discussion re social constituents. Is that term a general one, or is it a part of a particular social theory?

A couple of objections. The general problem I have with binary pairs is that they have their basis in common language or experience, rather than the text. There's nothing wrong with using them as a model, but the fact that characters fit their slots does not necessarily inform us about the text. When we use such distinctions we are using the text to illustrate this common language or experience, which is to say we are forcing the text into a standard or general mold.

In other words, as soon as you talk about complementarity, how many other similar shows are you immediately invoking? And isn't the end of the analysis to say, the show is like all of those. It may even be true, but I don't think that's why the show is interesting.

More--and here we could have a specific argument--I don't think the practical vs inspirational distinction really holds. I do see that Taichi and Chihaya have those traits, but I don't see them in evidence as far as the actual history of the club has worked out. The single exception is of course when Taichi intervenes to stop Chihaya from overdoing it with Kana and Tsutomu. But I believe that moment is better understood in psychological terms, as Taichi standing up to the pushiness of his mother. (Not to annoy certain people unnecessarily, but perhaps Taichi is fixated on Chihaya as a resolution to his Oedipal complex? That might explain why Taichi's mode of addressing Chihaya through repressed violence, and why he can't confess to her. Of course this is way way over the top and I don't believe it--these are just anime characters--so everyone can take a deep breath and move along now...)

The particular problem I have with binary pairs as it relates to this anime is that they implicitly privilege two parties, immediately place them in an exclusive relationship. Black is always hanging out with White. Taichi would like that, but that's not at all how Chihaya is thinking. Consequently, such pairs can't comprehend the actual relationships that occur in the show.

One last general objection. It seems to me there is a contingency in how the club develops. I do think it was going to develop one way or the other: Kana is interested in the club and comes to it completely without any input from Taichi. Structuralist arguments obscure this contingency and make it into a retrospective necessity. But that's not how the club happens. The club could have happened--differently--without Taichi. He needs to be there, I think, not for the value of his social mediation (the episode rather leaves him outside the social world), but simply to fill the role in Chihaya's fantasy of resurrecting their childhood karuta club. I mean, everything you say here,

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

Chihaya is mentally stuck in Arata-Chihaya-Taichi. They promised to play again once they got better, and for that reason she's using the karuta society. She forms an attachment to the sensei, but nobody else seems to stand out. I don't think her fixation on that promise explains everything, but it's pretty much what the show gives us to work with. Goal centred Chihaya has tunnel vision, and tunnel vision makes her unintentionally brush off any attempt at contact others might make (as we have seen with track-team girl in episode one).

is exactly right. If Taichi has a function or a role, it is to keep this dream alive simply by being there. I agree that he does add more, but I don't agree that he is indispensable other than for this.

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

Chihaya-Taichi is also a constituent in Arata-Chihaya-Taichi, but I'm not going to talk about that right now (time issues). Also, Arata clearly has an indirect influence on the club, via the impression made on Chihaya (and to a lesser extent Taichi... probably). But that's another topic, too.

I would love to know more about this, too. No doubt we'll have more to say once Arata reappears.

[Dawnstorm]

Originally Posted by hyperborealis

Interesting discussion re social constituents. Is that term a general one, or is it a part of a particular social theory?

General term. I'm trying to figure out how I view shows, and that term seemed helpful (to me). "Constituent" is a term I know from grammar (google "immediate consituent analysis"), and - yep - that's structural grammar, and thus related to structural anthropology, too. But that's really incidental. (I am probably a structuralist thinker.)

I'm going to abandon the term "constituent" in this thread, though. It needs too much explanation and thus adds a layer of potential confusion.

More--and here we could have a specific argument--I don't think the practical vs inspirational distinction really holds. I do see that Taichi and Chihaya have those traits, but I don't see them in evidence as far as the actual history of the club has worked out. The single exception is of course when Taichi intervenes to stop Chihaya from overdoing it with Kana and Tsutomu.

Hm, I'd say there are many other bits and pieces that fit: sensei not wanting to deal with Chihaya as club president; Taichi explaining karuta to Kana and Tsutomu...

Taichi suggesting that Chihaya practise with better players while Taichi and Nishida train the newcomers is a very good exemplification of their different approaches: Taichi assumes success as the goal, and outlines a strategy that he thinks should work. What he isn't seeing is how this would break up the club and weaken cohesion; he's not seeing that he'd isolate Chihaya.

Look at the scene where Taichi explains card placement to Kana; she understands the basics, but when she comes up with a theory herself, he immediately comes out with a critique point ("makes it easier for your opponent, too"). It's true, but the move disheartens Kana (if only for a moment). This is a mistake Chihaya would never have made.

But I believe that moment is better understood in psychological terms, as Taichi standing up to the pushiness of his mother.

I've never thought about any of these situations in terms of displacement. It's an interesting angle: I can see how that may be a factor in his treatment of Chihaya. It opens up an interesting perspective: For example, Mom's straightforward "I can't show this to your Dad," compared to Chihaya's impulsive "Taichi isn't that mean," during the glasses episode, both exert a similar pressure, but Chihaya's more sympathetic approach would make her a "safer" target. It's well worth thinking through.

I am sort of confused, though, why this approach leads to "a better understanding" of the scene, while my intuitive binarisation of social relationships is reductive. I'd have thought that both are pretty much angles; lenses through which to view the show.

For example, you asked me how many shows I was evoking with my talk about complementarity. I might ask the same of you, here. Or when you go on to say:

The particular problem I have with binary pairs as it relates to this anime is that they implicitly privilege two parties, immediately place them in an exclusive relationship. Black is always hanging out with White. Taichi would like that, but that's not at all how Chihaya is thinking. Consequently, such pairs can't comprehend the actual relationships that occur in the show.

If binary pairs priviledge two parties, a displacment approach priviledges one. I feel there's more to your criticism about binary pairs (maybe something to do with the under-eveluation of the individual?), but I'm not sure I quite grasp it. I quite like Flower's post on the topic: all we're putting forth here, really, is a set of tools. When we have more tools, two things happen: (a) we have the opportunity to have a more complete view, but (b) if we don't have more time and energy at our disposal, we have to choose which ones we use; or we use them all, but with less depth than we would if we were to work only with one set of tools.

Balancing act.

I tend towards structuralist explanations, because that's the way my mind works.

One last general objection. It seems to me there is a contingency in how the club develops. I do think it was going to develop one way or the other: Kana is interested in the club and comes to it completely without any input from Taichi. Structuralist arguments obscure this contingency and make it into a retrospective necessity. But that's not how the club happens. The club could have happened--differently--without Taichi. He needs to be there, I think, not for the value of his social mediation (the episode rather leaves him outside the social world), but simply to fill the role in Chihaya's fantasy of resurrecting their childhood karuta club. I mean, everything you say here,

is exactly right. If Taichi has a function or a role, it is to keep this dream alive simply by being there. I agree that he does add more, but I don't agree that he is indispensable other than for this.

I'm really not sure about that. I'm taking my cue from the show, actually: Chihaya doesn't seem to have been very successful in sustaining contact with others. According to her own words she'd joined the track club to "meet people". So it's not like she didn't try to make friends.

You're right that Kana joined without any input from Taichi; but joining two people is joining a club - joining one is establishing a club with that person. Would Kana have done that? Maybe, maybe not. But remember that Kana was watching them play karuta. What would she have watched if Taichi hadn't been there? Chihaya sitting around looking gloomy because nobody comes? She'd probably have walked right by.

True. It needn't have been Taichi, necessarily. But who else would make a good a first member? And how would that come about?

I would love to know more about this, too. No doubt we'll have more to say once Arata reappears.

Yup, I'm waiting.

[Sol Falling]

I've been pretty swamped this week. Tried to catch up on all the anime I'd been missing last night.

Lot's of interesting discussion going on in this thread. But first I should probably lay out my impressions of episode 9, lol.

My own impression of Episode 9 was that it extended the lack of focused development we got in Episode 8. Main features this time: self-deprecation from Chihaya, Taichi being moody, a "best 16th birthday" climax straight out of a shoujo drama.

On Taichi as an identification character for males versus a fantasization character for females: there will be a bit of conflict there, lol. I think Taichi works best as an identification character outside of the context of "everything he does stems from his repressed angsty love for Chihaya". I.e., when his passion for Karuta seems genuine; when his friendship with Arata seems genuine; that is when I like Taichi best, and how I still prefer to see him. When you've got male identification mixed with female romanticization with the weak/selfish aspects of Taichi's personality, though, that's when things get a little weird. Ultimately, both are just fantasies: girls, guys who act like that don't tend to be gorgeous rich overachievers like Taichi; and guys, you really won't get anywhere with that sort of behaviour, however natural it might seem to be.

On Chihaya as the "heart" of the series. I think that this is true, even outside the context of Karuta. Remember our introduction to her as the basis for the story: a girl who lived in admiration for her sister, told to have a dream for herself. That Chihaya used to be happy living for her sister was something already extraordinary, not wrong; it was a clear demonstration of how much Chihaya valued harmony. The push she received towards living for her own sake was not for the sake of a rejection of that, but a reconciliation. The question Chihaya as a character embodies is "How can I both live for others, and myself?". The game "Karuta" as a stage for Chihaya's aspirations is a setting both for connection to others, and self-discovery. Taichi as a supporting actor to Chihaya embodies only one half of those themes in his similar desire for self-discovery. (Not to be too neat here, but Arata fits into a similar role the other way around).

Well, or this series could be another escapist shoujo romantic fantasy, lol. Iunno. This episode pushed pretty heavily in that regard. I read a number of shoujo romances too, but, while the characters may not have as much to generate discussion, I'd say there are a lot more meritorious works in that regard (the context of romance alone).

[Cosmic Eagle]

Poor old Taichi....he really should just be himself instead of that masochistic self-torture....

[sergel02]

^ but i like that side of him. He's one of my favorite male leads in an anime in a while.

[hyperborealis]

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

Hm, I'd say there are many other bits and pieces that fit: sensei not wanting to deal with Chihaya as club president;

Perhaps. On the other hand, the Empress may be just another person who is wrong about how to run the karuta club.

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

Taichi explaining karuta to Kana and Tsutomu...

I'm pretty sure Chihaya could do this too!

In this scene, everyone is just following their personal approach to karuta. Student Tsutomu acts as a student, taking notes. Passionate, experiential Chihaya insists the best way to learn is to play. Likewise, and as you point out below, Taichi is simply following his own analytical and discursive bent.

In this episode, the high point of the instruction in karuta comes when Kana takes her first card. This moment is a mirror to the time young Chihaya took her first card from Arata. Kana's happiness at her well-earned victory ratifies Chihaya's no-holds-barred approach to teaching karuta, which she owes to Arata's own example of not going easy on her back then.

In all of this Taichi is simply not extant. At most he is a foil to Chihaya. As far as practical instruction goes, she is the actual leader of the club.

Now I could be wrong about this. Later episodes may ratify this functional division. But so far anyway I don't see it in operation. I don't see Taichi actually fulfilling a practical and organizational function paired with and on a level with Chihaya's role in the club.

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

Taichi suggesting that Chihaya practise with better players while Taichi and Nishida train the newcomers is a very good exemplification of their different approaches: Taichi assumes success as the goal, and outlines a strategy that he thinks should work. What he isn't seeing is how this would break up the club and weaken cohesion; he's not seeing that he'd isolate Chihaya.

Look at the scene where Taichi explains card placement to Kana; she understands the basics, but when she comes up with a theory herself, he immediately comes out with a critique point ("makes it easier for your opponent, too"). It's true, but the move disheartens Kana (if only for a moment). This is a mistake Chihaya would never have made.

Really very nice close reading of both scenes. You helped me understand them in a way I hadn't appreciated before.

But aren't you making my case for me? Both instances show Taichi's "practical" and "organizational" approach coming up short. The episode rather illustrates his failure in these terms!

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

I've never thought about any of these situations in terms of displacement. It's an interesting angle: I can see how that may be a factor in his treatment of Chihaya. It opens up an interesting perspective: For example, Mom's straightforward "I can't show this to your Dad," compared to Chihaya's impulsive "Taichi isn't that mean," during the glasses episode, both exert a similar pressure, but Chihaya's more sympathetic approach would make her a "safer" target. It's well worth thinking through.

I am sort of confused, though, why this approach leads to "a better understanding" of the scene, while my intuitive binarisation of social relationships is reductive. I'd have thought that both are pretty much angles; lenses through which to view the show.

The difference is that binary pairs derive from a common language and experience that are outside the text. By using them to explain Chihayafuru, you at most can treat the anime as an illustration of this common language and experience.

I prefer any approach that instead discriminates what is distinctive and different about the show.

I agree that armchair Freudian analysis is not that approach, which is partly why I disavowed it when I brought it up. But so far as any psychological approach gets us closer to the characters as individuals, and brings out the nuances of their characterization and development, I do prefer it. Why, you do it all the time yourself, Dawnstorm. The close readings of the characters you offer above are perfect instances of what I am talking about.

I really don't think the functional organizational requirements of a club are the keys to understanding Chihaya or Taichi's characters. The club is a vehicle for the expression of those characters, not a determinative limit upon them. More than that, this club is not like other clubs, since it is a karuta club, and since it is Chihaya's club. These are the things we are interested in. A structural analysis of clubs is not going to get us there.

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

I'm really not sure about that. I'm taking my cue from the show, actually: Chihaya doesn't seem to have been very successful in sustaining contact with others. According to her own words she'd joined the track club to "meet people". So it's not like she didn't try to make friends.

Oh, the girl from the track team is her friend--she calls Chihaya "Chi-chan," after all.

But Chihaya wants something else than just friendship--she wants the passion that she remembers from her earlier days playing karuta with Arata and Taichi. When she says to herself, "I am not alone," she is not saying that she now has friends but that she now has companions in this passion for karuta. That is how the other club members relate to her. So Kana: "We have to work hard since you're so earnest about karuta!" And Tsutomu: "I feel the same way! / I still have much to learn, / but I have a feeling that I'll grow to love karuta." Chihaya creates the club around her intensity of passion.

This passion is based on her personality of course, but ultimately it traces back to Arata's own original intensity at karuta and to the passionate life made possible by karuta itself, with its traditions and ethos. Chihaya is the conduit and the expression of this resource of passion rooted in her past and in Japanese tradition.

As such, she is the sole center of the club. Everyone else, Taichi included, is simply carried up in this divine wind.

Chihaya is a force of nature. I find it impossible to think that this overwhelming passion would not find its correlate with others.

Dawnstorm, you are thinking like Taichi. That is your mistake. Think like Chihaya instead, and then you can't go wrong

[Dawnstorm]

@hyperborealis: More abstract first:

Originally Posted by hyperborealis

The difference is that binary pairs derive from a common language and experience that are outside the text. By using them to explain Chihayafuru, you at most can treat the anime as an illustration of this common language and experience.

I prefer any approach that instead discriminates what is distinctive and different about the show.

I agree that armchair Freudian analysis is not that approach, which is partly why I disavowed it when I brought it up.

Gotcha.

But so far as any psychological approach gets us closer to the characters as individuals, and brings out the nuances of their characterization and development, I do prefer it. Why, you do it all the time yourself, Dawnstorm. The close readings of the characters you offer above are perfect instances of what I am talking about.

Well, I happen to think that, if we approach Chihayafuru only through psychology, we're missing something. I think that Chihayafuru is different from, say, Kimi ni Todoke in that respect. The show is basically a detailed character study of Sawako inching into society.

Chihayafuru is more complex, though:

I really don't think the functional organizational requirements of a club are the keys to understanding Chihaya or Taichi's characters. The club is a vehicle for the expression of those characters, not a determinative limit upon them. More than that, this club is not like other clubs, since it is a karuta club, and since it is Chihaya's club. These are the things we are interested in. A structural analysis of clubs is not going to get us there.

The structural analysis of the club does have a purpose, though, in that you can organise the club in many ways. You've repeatedly talked about it in terms of "right" or "wrong", but that is not what I'm primarily interested in, at least not at that point (too little information).

I agree with you that the club is a vehicle for the expression of those characters. The formal limitations on what a club needs, then, is certainly not determining their actions, but these limits pose a complication, and how you treat them, given the club-as-character-expression, shows your approach to life. This is why Taichi and Chihaya's relationship transfers into the club as organisational principles, and this is also why "right" and "wrong" doesn't really come into it.

So, when you say:

On the other hand, the Empress may be just another person who is wrong about how to run the karuta club.

We're not on a page. I don't even know what the right or wrong way to run the club is supposed to be. The thing is, the club has to deal with her, as she's the one who approves the club.

I certainly agree that this is Chihaya's club. Taichi's presidency is a formality, and little more. But it's a formality that is necessary. And on the practical level, I think, this does play out as character difference. Taichi is simply better at that sort of stuff, and what's more, Chihaya is happy to leave it to him (taking the role as "captain"). That is part of what makes the relationship between them stable (which is not the same as "beneficial"; I do think it can be beneficial to both of them, but that's conditional). It's this stability of their relationship, I think, that maps onto the club and gives the other members a sense of security.

This plays out very interestingly when they visit Taichi's home and Chihaya shows the other members Taichi's trophies. They're all suitably impressed (it's interesting to compare this to Tsutomu's sense of rivalry in the recruitment arc), but Taichi isn't pleased - which is in itself interesting, as this is the sort of attention that child-Taichi would have revelled in.

In that scene, Chihaya is really only talking about Taichi to her new friends. She's basically showing them what he's good at. The other members probably realise more about the club they've been joining (remember that the brithday-party plans must have been in place at that time, already, too, to get a more complete picture). The club, in its informal organisation, is an extension of Chihaya and Taichi's relationship. (They will learn about Arata soon enough.)

It's precisely because this is the case that how they deal with the organisational necessities of the club brings to light certain aspects of their relationship, too.

Taichi, at this point, appears to be the most complex component, here: he's (and I think that may contribute to your contentions) caught between the two social groupings "Taichi-Chihaya" and "Club" - he's feeling the membership of both, and there's a conflict between his relationship to Chihaya, and his relationship to the karuta club. It's not a clear cut conflict, by any means. Why is he ill at ease with the other club members being impressed by his trophies? I have several ideas, non of which are mutually exclusive, and all of which are pretty tentative. I don't have the time to go into that; there'll be better opportunities in the future anyway.

But aren't you making my case for me? Both instances show Taichi's "practical" and "organizational" approach coming up short. The episode rather illustrates his failure in these terms!

Yes, but he's failing because he's doing most of the work, and working within a framework set by Chihaya. See, I don't see situational failure as failure of a method. We do not get to see a club dominated by Chihaya; but neither do we see a club devoid of Taichi's practical input. Thus taking a result and attributing it to either Taichi or Chihaya is impossible. You're trying to compare individual input; I'm looking at a social process. I think that's pretty much where we're at odds. Why I didn't think I was making your point for you.

Remember, I never said that Taichi knows how to run a club, and Chihaya doesn't. I thought of their running the club as representative of their general complementarity.

So, when you say:

I don't see Taichi actually fulfilling a practical and organizational function paired with and on a level with Chihaya's role in the club.

I sort of see what you mean. But, then I might point towards Chihaya exhausting her team members as the flip side of it all. Chihaya has no sense at all for practical consequence (her style of play - focus 100 % then drop down and sleep in an instant) might not exactly work for all. My point is basically that we do not see a club where Chihaya lacks the moderation of Taichi; but neither do we see a club that lacks the motivational input of Chihaya. Thus we can't easily allocate success.

But Chihaya wants something else than just friendship--she wants the passion that she remembers from her earlier days playing karuta with Arata and Taichi. When she says to herself, "I am not alone," she is not saying that she now has friends but that she now has companions in this passion for karuta. That is how the other club members relate to her. So Kana: "We have to work hard since you're so earnest about karuta!" And Tsutomu: "I feel the same way! / I still have much to learn, / but I have a feeling that I'll grow to love karuta." Chihaya creates the club around her intensity of passion.

This passion is based on her personality of course, but ultimately it traces back to Arata's own original intensity at karuta and to the passionate life made possible by karuta itself, with its traditions and ethos. Chihaya is the conduit and the expression of this resource of passion rooted in her past and in Japanese tradition.

As such, she is the sole center of the club. Everyone else, Taichi included, is simply carried up in this divine wind.

Chihaya is a force of nature. I find it impossible to think that this overwhelming passion would not find its correlate with others.

And yet her solitary attempt at creating the club proved a spectacular failure. Nobody showed up, and she merely stared out of the window moodily. This is passion taking the form of obsession. An all-or-nothing approach whose flipside is frustration. Taichi provided an environment in which she could put her passion to good use.

As an example, earlier you said this about Taichi's words "Do you want to burn out people who do their best?":

And notice how she internalizes his point later that night--she takes his words as the confirmation of the low opinion other people have about her for being "blind to everything but karuta," and tells herself "I'm no good. / No good at all." They don't communicate well. What girl wants a boyfriend who makes her feel like that?

The point back then was about communication - and I agree, the communication could go better. But we can't solely blame Taichi for Chihaya feeling bad. This doesn't come out of nowhere. It's the flipside of her passion: failure isn't a challenge to do better next time - it's a catastrophe.

If they keep up this dance, with Taichi slowing her down again and again, and she feeling like that again and again, then their complementarity will lead into desaster. I agree with that. But if Chihaya's club without Taichi? She would dominate too much, and then - when something happens - this sort of feeling will hit with a vengeance. A Chihaya-dominated club would be - for Chihaya - a giant frustration battery. She wouldn't have felt any better had they collapsed, and the practical implications for the club might have been more severe. (Not to mention that the other club members wouldn't have been there to cheer her up afterwards, having collapsed and all.)

Dawnstorm, you are thinking like Taichi. That is your mistake. Think like Chihaya instead, and then you can't go wrong

I refuse to choose sides.

[Flower]

You know, I re-watched eps 7 through 9 again last night.

And ... well ... I have been thoroughly enjoying the series itself, but to be honest Chihaya herself as a character makes me cringe. Not in a "negative" way mind you. It's moreso ... hmm ... how shall I put this. She is endearing but there is this feeling that she is somehow "doomed" (to use a dramatic word) to hurt those around her through her being so emotionally undeveloped. Not only emotionally (which seems most obvious with Taichi) but even physically, which ep 9 showed with regards to the two new members. I really REALLY felt sorry for them.

In other words I actually feel kinda sorry for those around her ... it is not ill-intent on Chihaya's part, mind you. It's moreso that she is a walking time bomb of sorts, physically and emotionally hurting others without intending to do so.

And so very often when she appears on the screen I ... well ... cringe, for lack of a better way to put it. And at the moment it seems Taichi is the only one who is somehow being a catalyst for her to mature in some way, shape and form.

In some ways it is kinda sad ... and even "tragic"....

[Hooves]

It's true that Chihaya is pressuring the two new members to the point where they start going delusional. While at the same time, hurting Taichi emotionally with her fascination for Arata (*hint* *hint* the phone scene). Hopefully, everyone in the club can manage these things when the tournament-like play appears. In which we might even get some Taichi vs Arata action maybe? Still, they kinda put out Taichi's girlfriend this entire time.. I wonder what happened to her.

[Flower]

Originally Posted by Hooves

It's true that Chihaya is pressuring the two new members to the point where they start going delusional. While at the same time, hurting Taichi emotionally with her fascination for Arata (*hint* *hint* the phone scene). Hopefully, everyone in the club can manage these things when the tournament-like play appears. In which we might even get some Taichi vs Arata action maybe? Still, they kinda put out Taichi's girlfriend this entire time.. I wonder what happened to her.

Well, it would be one thing if she was purposefully doing it ... but she is clueless that she is doing so. Although when Taichi put his foot down and forced her to stop the practices for the two new members she slowly began to realize what she had done, leading her to later on reflect on her actions and apologize to all. And even though the other club members said everything was fine and okay and the rest after the fact, the issue is the actions themselves when they were going on.

I am not necessarily trying to make it out that Taichi and the rest are "white" and Chihaya is "black" somehow, mind you. It's not that simple, and part of the strength of the show is that Chihayafuru portrays the characters very realistically and convincingly, i.e. not so "black and white".

[Hooves]

What you say is true Flower. I also respect how you analyze things very carefully, but I was merely predicting future catastrophes in which clueless Chihaya will eventually make happen. Taichi is of course there to make sure she doesn't accidentally destroy the two new member's brains. While at the same time, her not going easy on them and her ultimate passion for karuta will eventually crack at them over and over.

But she did reflect on them, that much alone is a huge step in Chihaya's development in terms of emotional understanding.

[Flower]

Originally Posted by Hooves

What you say is true Flower. I also respect how you analyze things very carefully, but I was merely predicting future catastrophes in which clueless Chihaya will eventually make happen. Taichi is of course there to make sure she doesn't accidentally destroy the two new member's brains. While at the same time, her not going easy on them and her ultimate passion for karuta will eventually crack at them over and over.

But she did reflect on them, that much alone is a huge step in Chihaya's development in terms of emotional understanding.

Very kind of you to say Hooves!

Didn't mean to come across as "disagreeing" with anything you said btw, I was merely "re-chewing" over how sad it was that Chihaya was largely clueless over what she does. I must admit that I was very pleased to see her not only confronted but also what seemed to me to be sincerely reflecting on her actions. To me she is a good hearted and endearing person when it comes down to it!