Muv-Luv Franchise - Game & General Discussion

[Mura]

Just wanted to point out, demo is out for Total Eclipse. Time for me to get it off the PSN.

[Destined_Fate]

Some really crazy things some people are saying about TE on the Internet... Seems complete BS to me though.

Spoiler for Stuff I heard on the Internet:

Eh, checking out the game online and some people are running around saying Yuya defects to Latrova's Faction, Latrova isn't dead after all, Cryska dies after becoming the main Love Interest, and Yui and Yuya are somehow brother and sister which is all kinds of wrong. I'm thinking they're just saying random BS. >_>

[Mach Sperion]

As ridiculous as it sounds, it's all true.

[maxxus0923]

You dont know kouki enough if you think that is BS

[wavehawk]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Stuff I heard on the Internet

- Yes, you're right. It's complete BS, none of it is true. Absolutely none of it.
<<---(Trying hard to keep a straight face)

Seriously, though. Wait until you either have a copy of the actual game or search out a reliable source.

[Alastor Mobius Toth]

Well, spoilers should always be treated with a certain dose of skepticism, which is why cross-referencing and searching other sources is the key.

That said, between various spoilers (including at least one written by people why played the game), and some available videos (not sure if they're still widely available), all of that is true. It's is absolute truth, and is now Muv-Luv canon.

Now, whether it's good or bad depends solely on what you're thinking.

Personally, I think it's nearly complete BS after Terrorist Arc, and I will not waste my time, energy or money confirming it.

[Destined_Fate]

Originally Posted by Mach Sperion

As ridiculous as it sounds, it's all true.

Spoiler for Cuz Rumor talk:

That's horrible.. And apparently Yui doesn't give a **** about it and still wants Yuuya and something about wanting Yui to be left crying at the end or something.

I plan to do that but I'm impatient and multiple people have said that's the case. >_>

[issuzark]

How on earth would she not cry after getting imouto-zoned? Gosh that stubborn woman.

[Destined_Fate]

That doesn't seem to stop her "urges" for Yuuya. >_>

[Wild Goose]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

That doesn't seem to stop her "urges" for Yuuya. >_>

They haven't been raised together, so the Westermarck Effect isn't in play here.

*shrug* Besides, she fell in love with him before she knew they were related. It's not her fault. And by all accounts this is the first time she's actually been in love.

Intellectually, she knows he's her older brother.

Emotionally and romantically, she knew him as her love interest before she knew him as her brother. That stuff just doesn't go away so easily like that.

[John117xCortana]

But it's just so wrong for someone who is related by blood to.....you know.

[Alastor Mobius Toth]

As WildGoose said, there's no psychological basis for Yui to think of Yuuya as her brother. To the contrary, all she has is circumstantial information from someone who would be very much willing to fuck with her head and portray her father's past in a negative light versus the substantial feelings of love and affection towards someone that saved your life several times.

Expecting her to feel revolted is silly. Psychology does not work that way.

*Shrug* Plus, wrong is a subjective thing. Personally, I don't find this "wrong" at all. I do find it very, very sad however.

[Destined_Fate]

Eh, they've had separated children meet up years later and fall in love because of a "Connection" and almost always when they found out even after they married they divorced or stopping doing or wanting to do "that".

I still see it as all kinds of wrong for a sister, even half sister, to lust after her brother even after learning that fact.

I honestly hope that sibling thing isn't really a real thing but as it's Muv-Luv I wouldn't put incest out of the question for Yui at least.

[Wild Goose]

Originally Posted by John117xCortana

But it's just so wrong for someone who is related by blood to.....you know.

MY LITTLE SISTER CANNOT BE THIS SAMURAI.

Also, if a decade or so of reading eromanga and h-doujins have thought me anything, it's never underestimate the imouto route, especially when the imouto is, like Yui, a winmouto. Bonus points for being a tsundere winmouto.

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Eh, they've had separated children meet up years later and fall in love because of a "Connection" and almost always when they found out even after they married they divorced or stopping doing or wanting to do "that".

I still see it as all kinds of wrong for a sister, even half sister, to lust after her brother even after learning that fact.

I honestly hope that sibling thing isn't really a real thing but as it's Muv-Luv I wouldn't put incest out of the question for Yui at least.

I would just like to note the dichotomy here: you were perfectly fine with racism and all it entailed (1940s America) and by logical extension worse things, because in your words morality followed society, and that was how those societies behaved.

And you consider Yui's feelings for Yuuya to be wrong. A loving heterosexual relationship between two people who've come to respect each other.

Well, society does frown upon sibling incest, so I suppose you are being consistent in this regard. But if society were fine with the idea of romantic sibling relationships, approving of the idea of Yuiyacest, would you be so strong in your disapproval?

Also, you're glossing over the fact that Yui's mind is turned into churned jelly because on one hand she has her feelings for Yuuya, and she's struggling with how now he's her brother and she isn't supposed to have such feelings for him. And she's doing her best not to act on those feelings. Which, I dunno, wasn't that what you wanted in the first place?

Originally Posted by Alastor Mobius Toth

As WildGoose said, there's no psychological basis for Yui to think of Yuuya as her brother. To the contrary, all she has is circumstantial information from someone who would be very much willing to fuck with her head and portray her father's past in a negative light versus the substantial feelings of love and affection towards someone that saved your life several times.

Expecting her to feel revolted is silly. Psychology does not work that way.

*Shrug* Plus, wrong is a subjective thing. Personally, I don't find this "wrong" at all. I do find it very, very sad however.

Exactly.

Much of the reason there's a strong societal disapproval of incest is because for the most part it's a member of the family abusing their relationship in order to subvert a weaker (relatively/psychologically speaking) member of the family into a relationship with them; there's a severe imbalance there. You see this in the usual examples/goings on at the Sankaku Complex blog, where you have parents/older relatives forcing themselves on children/grandchildren. Make no mistake, I don't condone these sort of relationships at all, because these are examples of emotional and sexual abuse, and the perpetrators are rightly to be shunned and reviled.

But that isn't the case here.

In this case, Yuuya and Yui met as adults (well, more or less. I suspect the age of majority has been lowered - notice Chobi's enthusiastic consumption of beer. That's beside the point I want to make here). They met as adults, and the relationship developed more or less on equal terms (well, after you discount Yuuya's obliviousness). There was no abuse, no manipulation, no brainwashing. Any relationship that forms will be consensual.

Besides, as AMT said, we can't discount the possibility that Heineman is screwing with Yui's head, particularly if he feels like crushing her young love as revenge towards Tadamasa for NTRing him and stealing Mira. (Seriously, were I in his place, I'd feel very tempted to keep that Japanese floozy away from the son of the love of my life, the woman who is the mother of all my designs... Okay, I admit it, this is my delusion. )

As for Heine being the YF-23's designer, did some reading. The YF-23 was a joint project, with Northrop Grumman/Northrock Grunnan being the main company, with Boeing/Boening as a major subcontractor. It's quite likely that after the YF-23 failure, Heine got snapped up by Boening, which still did brisk business with the US military for the F-15 and the F-18.

Having said that, in all honesty, I was a Yuiya shipper before. Now that the relationship has become Yuiyacest, my ardor for their forbidden love will not die, it makes me support them even more!

[calubin_175]

Heineman said he is spreading his TSF children globally, beginning with the F-14 traits flowing in Soviet designs, then the YF-23 intended for Japan and the Active Eagle for Africa.

[Destined_Fate]

Don't put words in my mouth, I'm a Filipino American - a Half Breed from a Caucasian Father and Filipino Mother. So I know plenty about racism growing up. Doesn't help that when I was younger I was confused for Japanese/Chinese and now Mexican in modern times and the ever so often Japanese/Chinese mistake as well.

Now that Yui knows they're related she shouldn't hold such feelings for him anymore. Her connection she felt for him is now explained as they're siblings. After all it isn't uncommon for separated siblings to accidentally find each other and feel a strange attraction.

[Alastor Mobius Toth]

I'll just point out that it's slightly ridiculous that people are ranting on YuuyaxYui being "wrong" now, but they aren't at the least bothered by the fact that 13 year old girls are trained into killers. FYI, this constitutes a war crime in real life.

Or you know, the massive abuse and crimes against humanity that Alternatives III and IV were. A sister wanting to screw her brother is small-time.

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Now that Yui knows they're related she shouldn't hold such feelings for him anymore. Her connection she felt for him is now explained as they're siblings. After all it isn't uncommon for separated siblings to accidentally find each other and feel a strange attraction.

Eeeerrr....why? Because your morality says so? I'm sorry, but that's the wrong application of the word "should". No, she doesn't have to do as you think, and no, her attraction does not have be based upon the fact that she subconsciously knew Yuuya was her brother. Yes, cases like that happen. But there are legitimate cases were such attraction was, and continues to be, romantic in nature.

Their connection isn't "explained". The fact comes out randomly during a discussion about a completely unrelated topic, solely because Heineman was feeling like being a troll.

EDIT: Also, using conventional morality on Japanese Visual novel/anime/light novel series such as this, is an exercise doomed to failure. Better to not do it at all.

[Wild Goose]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Don't put words in my mouth, I'm a Filipino American - a Half Breed from a Caucasian Father and Filipino Mother. So I know plenty about racism growing up. Doesn't help that when I was younger I was confused for Japanese/Chinese and now Mexican in modern times and the ever so often Japanese/Chinese mistake as well.

I don't have to put words in your mouth - you do a fine enough job of that by yourself. Or have you really forgotten your opinions of last august? When characters were explicitly shown as being racist, you stated that it was not wrong because that was what their society mandated.

Also, taking the benchmark that you were expounding at the time, I pointed out that logically you were alright with worse things that happen today, because those acts are considered appropriate and acceptable by the societies that practiced them. I received no rebuttal, which I consider to be a tacit acknowledgement on your part.

If you're really forgotten what you said, you're quite welcome to refer back to the Episode 5 Poll & Discussion Thread. An example of what you said:

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

No you're wrong. Society decides it(Which is why things that were okay in the past are no longer deemed okay today because Society evolved over time and decided that those things are wrong. While back than they were acceptable). We can say that the Romans were racist but back than they never even saw it as such nor did society or their defeated enemies. It's just how they did things. So no, it isn't racism because society in TE doesn't see it as racism nor do they care all that much about it. Thus Yui saw nothing wrong with berating Yuuya because as far as she's concerned he is kin.

And don't act as if you're somehow unique. I have to face racism as well, a more insidious form of racism, as I'm not considered a "true" member of my race, but an outsider. This has cost me my position and raise and my manager and coworkers are screwing me over because I'm not a full Indian. All of us will face racism at some point in our lives. Whether it's because we're different, or not the same.

Which, frankly, makes your excusing the racism of TE Japan and America all the more surprising.

Also, you've yet to answer my question, as to whether you would still oppose this relationship if romantic sibling relationships were societally acceptable.

Now that Yui knows they're related she shouldn't hold such feelings for him anymore. Her connection she felt for him is now explained as they're siblings. After all it isn't uncommon for separated siblings to accidentally find each other and feel a strange attraction.

Hmm. Your opposition to a relationship between Yui and Yuuya is from your IRL views. Then how do you reconcile that with these statements?

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

It needed to be said, trying to place RL views isn't going to make this anime enjoyable at all since it isn't RL(even if it's set on Earth) and has a number of changes with things that aren't okay in RL but are perfectly fine in TE. Such as National Pride that would be considered racism in RL but it isn't at all in TE.

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

And again you're wrong for trying to force you RL views in a setting that is vastly different.

By your actions and words, you display yourself to be a hypocrite. Are you not at this point using RL views? Are you not forcing you own RL views onto a fictional work?

If it was wrong for DezoPenguin and I to disagree with and oppose the racism displayed in Total Eclipse, it is equally wrong for you to oppose Yui's incestuous romantic feelings towards Yuuya.

You cannot have your cake and eat it.

Originally Posted by Alastor Mobius Toth

I'll just point out that it's slightly ridiculous that people are ranting on YuuyaxYui being "wrong" now, but they aren't at the least bothered by the fact that 13 year old girls are trained into killers. FYI, this constitutes a war crime in real life.

Or you know, the massive abuse and crimes against humanity that Alternatives III and IV were. A sister wanting to screw her brother is small-time.

Exactly. QFT.

Eeeerrr....why? Because your morality says so? I'm sorry, but that's the wrong application of the word "should". No, she doesn't have to do as you think, and no, her attraction does not have be based upon the fact that she subconsciously knew Yuuya was her brother. Yes, cases like that happen. But there are legitimate cases were such attraction was, and continues to be, romantic in nature.

Their connection isn't "explained". The fact comes out randomly during a discussion about a completely unrelated topic, solely because Heineman was feeling like being a troll.

This cannot be stressed enough. While I personally feel that Heineman was probably telling the truth, the fact also remains that we have no real reason to trust what he says. The burden of proof is on him to prove that his statements are correct, and so far all the evidence he's given, while being convincing, is nontheless circumstantial. I studied law, and I can tell you this - I wouldn't go to a courtroom with just Heineman's testimony to build my case.

EDIT: Also, using conventional morality on Japanese Visual novel/anime/light novel series such as this, is an exercise doomed to failure. Better to not do it at all.

What I find extremely ironic, as I posted above, is that almost a year ago he'd argued the same thing - you can't force RL views onto a fictional work - yet he is now doing exactly that.

[Esg]

Originally Posted by Alastor Mobius Toth

Eeeerrr....why? Because your morality says so? I'm sorry, but that's the wrong application of the word "should". No, she doesn't have to do as you think, and no, her attraction does not have be based upon the fact that she subconsciously knew Yuuya was her brother. Yes, cases like that happen. But there are legitimate cases were such attraction was, and continues to be, romantic in nature.

Their connection isn't "explained". The fact comes out randomly during a discussion about a completely unrelated topic, solely because Heineman was feeling like being a troll.

EDIT: Also, using conventional morality on Japanese Visual novel/anime/light novel series such as this, is an exercise doomed to failure. Better to not do it at all.

Oh please Toth. Do you have some kind of urge to bone your sister? If not you shouldn't be all that bothered by people being squicked out by incest. I'd like to drop this subject as quickly as humanly possible

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Eh, they've had separated children meet up years later and fall in love because of a "Connection" and almost always when they found out even after they married they divorced or stopping doing or wanting to do "that".

I still see it as all kinds of wrong for a sister, even half sister, to lust after her brother even after learning that fact.

I honestly hope that sibling thing isn't really a real thing but as it's Muv-Luv I wouldn't put incest out of the question for Yui at least.

Thankfully thats averted as she looses the Tortilla Chips

[Esg]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

And again you're wrong for trying to force you RL views in a setting that is vastly different. To them it isn't racism it's just business as usual.

No you're wrong. Society decides it(Which is why things that were okay in the past are no longer deemed okay today because Society evolved over time and decided that those things are wrong. While back than they were acceptable). We can say that the Romans were racist but back than they never even saw it as such nor did society or their defeated enemies. It's just how they did things. So no, it isn't racism because society in TE doesn't see it as racism nor do they care all that much about it. Thus Yui saw nothing wrong with berating Yuuya because as far as she's concerned he is kin.

Let's take an example than. Let's say in the future it's considered a grave sin to have a family because of overpopulation issues yet in right now it isn't an issue and no one even thinks about something like that. Sure it's a sin in the future to have a family but at this time period it isn't since society has no issues with families.

And they already showed you why things are out of wake. Important events that helped shape our world happen MUCH differently in TE than there's the BETA threat as well. That's why things are different and why it's foolish to expect things to be like RL anyway despite this very major changes.

I would honestly like to know more about how American history went in depth within the Alternative verse really. I'm less offended by your point and more fascinated as it is an alternative history. It mentioned in narration Civil rights took a backseat to the BETA in TE I'd like to know more in detail. Is Apartheid still in order? Did a whole lot of things supposed to happen in the 60's not happen? Your only fault is your assumption has entirely no basis without more proof about what they see as racism