Mahou Senki Lyrical Nanoha Force Manga Discussion

[WarpObscura]

Originally Posted by Koveras Alvane

Damn, I really asked that in German? Neither it, nor English are my native language, so I sometimes forget to switch, especially when a sentence starts with a German word. ^^;

[grammernazi]Should be "Ja, ist eine wichtige Frage." May also include a "das" or "es" before "ist" to sound less colloquial. ^^[/grammernazi]

Yes, you did totally use "oder" instead of "or".

Also, noted on the grammar.

[Tiresias]

This had just occurred to me, but before the formation of the TSAB many worlds, including Midchilda, had their share of mass-based heavy weapons, right? Yet here we have MS6 using experimental, faulty weapons, instead of using battle-proven designs from the pre-Ban age. Did they purge all schematics on every mass-based weapons larger than small arms?

[Koveras Alvane]

Originally Posted by Tiresias

This had just occurred to me, but before the formation of the TSAB many worlds, including Midchilda, had their share of mass-based heavy weapons, right? Yet here we have MS6 using experimental, faulty weapons, instead of using battle-proven designs from the pre-Ban age. Did they purge all schematics on every mass-based weapons larger than small arms?

Image problems. They wouldn't look good using Terran assault rifles right after banning their use everywhere they can. If, on the other hand, they use experimental weapons, they can always claim "It was magic!" afterwards and nobody would be any wiser.

Hmm, I wonder if there are any conspiracy kooks in the Nanohaverse. ^^;

[Tiresias]

Originally Posted by Koveras Alvane

Image problems. They wouldn't look good using Terran assault rifles right after banning their use everywhere they can. If, on the other hand, they use experimental weapons, they can always claim "It was magic!" afterwards and nobody would be any wiser.

Hmm, I wonder if there are any conspiracy kooks in the Nanohaverse. ^^;

I think you need more than mere assault rifles to do good damage against the Hucks, hence "heavy weapons".

I never said Terran (though curiously the shady scientist teams are escorted by mooks wielding M-16's), there should be advanced Midchildan or Belkan designs lying somewhere from pre-TSAB period. If they're really wary with the publicity, the can just re-design the outer appearances into Ace Custom's that barely resembled the originals (happens many times in Gundams); slap some gratuitous mystical inscriptions, calligraphy, decorations and stuff W40K Space Marines style and you're done. Maybe also have the Saint Church bless them, just in case.

[Keroko]

Because that means Tsuzuki wouldn't be able to design all those fancy new weapons.

[Jimmy C]

It's been a century or more since mass-weapons were banned. The cheap, plentiful stuff like assault riffles, anti-armor weapons and such were probably never preserved and now no longer exist. If they DID keep anything in a usable condition, it'd be those "too deadly to use, yet too powerful to dispose" types like WMDs that wouldn't be appropriate for this case.
And just having plans would be useless. They no longer have the industrial base or technical expertise to build them. Even if they tried to follow those plans exactly, they still need someone who can build the factories to build parts and then assemble those weapons.
I'd say 5 years would be optimistic for getting from the "GO" decision to the first weapons rolling off the assembly line. By which time the case will have been resolved, or their advesaries have won and it no longer matters.

[Tiresias]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Because that means Tsuzuki wouldn't be able to design all those fancy new weapons.

He could just say that the new toys are refurbished and upgraded versions of the old ones on the NEXT notes; in Anime "Ancient" usually implies "superior" anyway And IIRC they hired someone else to design the toys.

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

They no longer have the industrial base or technical expertise to build them. Even if they tried to follow those plans exactly, they still need someone who can build the factories to build parts and then assemble those weapons.
I'd say 5 years would be optimistic for getting from the "GO" decision to the first weapons rolling off the assembly line. By which time the case will have been resolved, or their advesaries have won and it no longer matters.

Yet they seems to have the capacity on designing and making Strike Cannons from scratch. If they had the time to make completely new designs, why not just use the one from the past, give them upgrades for special needs?

At least they could have used the design of previous power supplies (I know, I know, Rule of Drama and stuff, but seriously? Why make a new design from scratch when there's reliable and battle tested power pack designs from the previous era?)

This is more understandable had the civilizations in the story never made such weapons before so the heroes must start from nothing, but it's explicitly stated that there was a time when such weapons were abundant.

[Justin_Brett]

Originally Posted by Koveras Alvane

Didn't Karen order a general retreat in the end of the last chapter? I understood it so that she stabbed Hayate to clear the way for the Esquad and then the Hucks escaped the combat airspace, leaving the STS6 to deal with Thoma.

Why...why would you have your villains do that? It makes the heroes look completely incompetent!

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Tiresias

He could just say that the new toys are refurbished and upgraded versions of the old ones on the NEXT notes; in Anime "Ancient" usually implies "superior" anyway And IIRC they hired someone else to design the toys.

And at that point, it becomes personal preference. If both ancient and new things are going to serve the same purpose, then it's up to the author to take a pick.

Originally Posted by Tiresias

Yet they seems to have the capacity on designing and making Strike Cannons from scratch. If they had the time to make completely new designs, why not just use the one from the past, give them upgrades for special needs?

At least they could have used the design of previous power supplies (I know, I know, Rule of Drama and stuff, but seriously? Why make a new design from scratch when there's reliable and battle tested power pack designs from the previous era?)

This is more understandable had the civilizations in the story never made such weapons before so the heroes must start from nothing, but it's explicitly stated that there was a time when such weapons were abundant.

Because it's harder to integrate old antiques with modern devices (remember, the current gadgets are deeply integrated with our heroes devices) then designing a system from the ground up and implementing such integration in the design.

Originally Posted by Justin_Brett

Why...why would you have your villains do that? It makes the heroes look completely incompetent!

They managed to drive an enemy who thought themselves as invincible to retreat. The only way this makes the heroes look incompetent is if you approach it with a 'glass is half empty' look.

[Tiresias]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Because it's harder to integrate old antiques with modern devices (remember, the current gadgets are deeply integrated with our heroes devices) then designing a system from the ground up and implementing such integration in the design.

I never recall the Strike Cannons being integrated with existing devices - I'm hoping that it would one day be the case, but right now it isn't.

Originally Posted by Justin_Brett

Why...why would you have your villains do that? It makes the heroes look completely incompetent!

They already made the heroes do tactically questionable actions (Nanoha not dealing with DeVille on her back), have them pick the wrong agents for the job (the completely magic-reliant Wolkenritters instead of the Numbers Cyborgs), and warped the rule of magic to give the villains even more advantage (the whole mass-based magic spells things, specifically the iceberg). Is this really surprising?

*grumbles on how Rule of Drama made the heroes hold the Idiot Ball*

[Justin_Brett]

Originally Posted by Keroko

They managed to drive an enemy who thought themselves as invincible to retreat. The only way this makes the heroes look incompetent is if you approach it with a 'glass is half empty' look.

But them retreating is completely illogical! They could easily kill Nanoha, Fate and Subaru at this point without any of them dying.

[00-Raiser]

Their goal in this entire battle was the grab Thoma and teleport out of there. They just wanted to shake off the Bureau, not wipe them out.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Tiresias

I never recall the Strike Cannons being integrated with existing devices - I'm hoping that it would one day be the case, but right now it isn't.

Considering Fate's device is basically an extension of Bardiche and Raising heart being quite able to do her usual support thing with Nanoha's new guns? Yes they are.

Originally Posted by Justin_Brett

But them retreating is completely illogical! They could easily kill Nanoha, Fate and Subaru at this point without any of them dying.

To be fair, killing them was never the Hucks main goal to begin with. They were always planning to run the moment they got the chance from the very start.

And 'easily' is not a word I would throw around so casually with our lack of context.

[Tiresias]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Raising heart being quite able to do her usual support thing with Nanoha's new guns? Yes they are.

AFAIK RH's only role is as a comm assistant and help her with her flight and evasion spells - and it only interacted directly with Nanoha, not the new weapons. It supports her, yes, but not by being integrated with the new toys. Not yet, anyway.

[Keroko]

Considering that in chapter 7 it was Raising Heart who wanted to do more fine-tuning, I would argue the opposite.

[Tiresias]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Considering that in chapter 7 it was Raising Heart who wanted to do more fine-tuning, I would argue the opposite.

It's possible that RH was also her design assistant. Doesn't mean it's connected to them. The few combat scenes on further showed no signs on RH being integrated with the AEC weapons system.

[Justin_Brett]

Their goal in this entire battle was the grab Thoma and teleport out of there. They just wanted to shake off the Bureau, not wipe them out.

Then why are they retreating now that doing that has become pitifully easy from their perspective?

[Nanya01]

Originally Posted by Justin_Brett

Then why are they retreating now that doing that has become pitifully easy from their perspective?

To quote Vita from StrikerS...

"Signum! Rein is..! Graf Eisen is..! Everything's broken!"

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Justin_Brett

Then why are they retreating now that doing that has become pitifully easy from their perspective?

We don't know. As I said, we lack context.

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Keroko

And 'easily' is not a word I would throw around so casually with our lack of context.

Section Six forces are near exhausted, Karen disabled Hayate and wiped out Vita and Erio withotubreaking a sweat(trashing two Strike Cannons in the process), Tohma already started to trash the famed Fortress Mode, Fate is busy with Deville, Isis have her capacity reduced and Arnage and Cypha are also there for good support, the context is thet the Huckebein have Section Six on the ropes, they justneed to kick them out of the way and take Tohma.

The only thing i can think of is that somehow Karen or another Huck points out an inconvenience of taking Tohma right at the moment, thus making the need to retreat. It's true that the TSAB is not their priority but something significant must happen to make them suddenly letting Tohma go. For now this isn't a victory for Section Six, it will be if they manage to "save" Tohma but as for the battle the better they can do with their mightiest personal is only stall the Huckebein.

Originally Posted by Nanya01

To quote Vita from StrikerS...

"Signum! Rein is..! Graf Eisen is..! Everything's broken!"

How that applies here? The Huckebeins are actually winning, nothing is broken except for the heroes butts xDU.