Mahou Senki Lyrical Nanoha Force Manga Discussion

[Kurohane]

Originally Posted by Sansker

I know they are different. What my point is that they are both the focus of the story. Like any other Lost Logia in all Nanoha seasons. You see in the first season the Jewel Seeds play a key role and while their hunt was put down to the side to make room for Nanoha and Fate friendship, they still were important for the antagonist to be use and to the main characters to keep a track off. Even force the final battle between Nanoha and Fate, something I am sure Fate did try to avoid in the past.

On A’s the Book of Darkness is even more central to the story and all the characters move and act because of it. The Wolkenritter want to complete it to save Hayate who is dying because of the book and the main characters knows that if they end the book it will be a disaster. So really who has a hold of that thing can change everything. If the main characters were to take the Book of Darkness away or all the Jewel Seeds away on the first season, the plot will be affected and the antagonist will react to such actions with a need and a rather fast and aggressive moves, because the Lost Logia is something that they are actually needing or want to.

What I am saying is that, in the end, the position of the Lost Logias will make for a plot change device while here the bad guys seem to take it rather well, to the point you even might ask if they even care. Yes, I say to study Thoma and the Silver Cross but it has been 3 months and rather to study it is has been more like Thoma just training to become a new character. You see this is the kind of things Force fails to me. In three months it was made no progress on the Eclipse and the bad guys don’t care like they did first, sending not one but two of their members to the field to get the Silver Cross and even ending going almost all of them at once. The story had a rather “fast” pacing and then goes back to the classic “emergency of the week” that we have on StrikerS ruining the feeling, the setting and the story so far, because is a story killer move.

How is that? Well, if everything was a race to get the Silver Cross and they get the Silver Cross… what now? You see, I am saying that they already got it. The main goal was solve half way in, so the rest isn’t really important but since we can’t end here we need to now move the focus from this to the other stuff that wasn’t important until now. The need of the author to just set Thoma as your standard Nanoha bureau mage character make him just put Thoma there and move him away from what I did consider a superior story. At least superior at this thing we have now.

Don't forget its not just athe book everyone was after, but the person, who had it. The Huckebein origianlly wanted Divider 994, which the book is apart of, and Lily. Since Thoma's encounter with Veyron, the situation became more complicated with the Divider and Strosek no having an owner so to speak. Now, Thoma became the main focus, and for good reason as later we found out he was a zero carrier, the jackpot Curren was searching for according to Veyron. Thoma became the prize everyone in Huckebein and SS6 wanted to get. The book (and Lily) cannot reach its full potential without its divider and Eclipse Driver. The Divider and Reactor when used together becomes a "poison that can kill the world" according to Curren that Fortis talked about to Veyron in chapter 5. The Huckebein want to find the proper connection of all three units. Cypha says that when speaking to Lily in chapter 8.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Stab wounds aren't necessarily fatal. Most people tend to survive even gunshots.

You say that as if the two are the same. The size of the weapon and prior wounds do matter. The sword that hit Signum was quite broad, meaning a great wound, combined with the two quite deep slashes that split her open shoulder to hip twice would be quite hard to survive. Not impossible, as there are stories of people surviving impossible wounds, but quite hard. Which is why I find disregarding her status as a defense program silly. It is the best explanation to how she survived, why disregard it for assumptions?

Bottomline, these wounds were quite fatal for most people, and Cypha had no way of knowing Signum would survive them at all. I therefore find it very hard to believe Cypha "spared" Signum.

Additionally, any mercy towards the bureau would have only come into play after this battle, as prior to that they had no reason to be gentle. Now that Thoma is a close friend of them, they do. Curren doesn't want to antagonize Thoma, so she cuts the TSAB some slack.

[Kaijo]

With a relatively quick google search, the best I can find on stab wounds is this peer-reviewed research paper, that analyzed various stab wounds and their mortality factor. Throat and chest stab wounds were more fatal, but even then, only a small fraction of those died. While stomach stab wounds weren't addressed per se, they did mention cardiac stabbings as considerably more survivable. And their lack of mention of stomach wounds is significant, because they were looking at mortality, and thus stomach wounds weren't seen as mortal.

And that's with our primitive medical technology, AND lack of healing magic.

Originally Posted by Sansker

How is that? Well, if everything was a race to get the Silver Cross and they get the Silver Cross… what now? You see, I am saying that they already got it. The main goal was solve half way in, so the rest isn’t really important but since we can’t end here we need to now move the focus from this to the other stuff that wasn’t important until now. The need of the author to just set Thoma as your standard Nanoha bureau mage character make him just put Thoma there and move him away from what I did consider a superior story. At least superior at this thing we have now.

Your mistake is in thinking that it was a race to get the book of the silver cross... it wasn't, or at least, not so much. The book was important (as a stolen item of power, much like any other divider), but it was more to get Thoma. Curren already has a book, so another book is just additional power. Somewhat like the relics, in that they are a source of power, but nothing too special or important to the plot. It is *not* like the Book of Darkness.

And what do you want, anyway? Do you want a special chapter to showing the team studying the book and going, "Hmm, anything yet?" "Nope, nothing yet!" That would be rather boring. You can rest assured that study of the book is going on in the background, just like Shamal told you, and that when they have something to report, it will be reported.

Normally, I'm all about having the audience shown important things. However, this isn't one of them. You seem obsessed with seeing pointless, boring things, as if that would somehow add something to it.

[Sansker]

Stomach wounds aren’t fatal but we already establish Signum suffer two other slashes on the chest and we don’t know how deep those were, besides falling from that high she could easy break her spine and neck, which as far as I know should be lethal or could be. Then again Isis had her neck broken and didn’t seem to bother her so what the hell?

I am afraid no. Not here, the Relic logic doesn’t really work. Let me explain. The Relics were just power and by the end not even a key power to do anything, really. I mean yes, brainwash Vivio but to be fair Jail could do that without the Relics so really pointless there. But the Silver Cross isn’t the same, and it wasn’t present as the same. You see they all wanted the Silver Cross, hey even Veyron ask for it when he meet Thoma… and then he go for no good reasons. Ok maybe that wasn’t a good example but I am trying to make a point here.

You see Thoma isn’t important by himself he is important because he can use the Silver Cross and has the Cero factor. But again, this is the jackpot the Hückebein want and they let the SD6 takes it because they can take it back later… so maybe it wasn’t that important after all, right? But at the beginning it was important and they were all out to get it back. And I am just saying of Thoma now is so centric to the Eclipse why he has been cast aside this much. Now is all about Harids and his evil plans which involve somehow the Eclipse and the AEC weapons but not the Silver Cross since the Grendel didn’t even care about it. Wasn’t that the jackpot?

What I mean, and what is my complain, is that the Silver Cross has done nothing so far and even Thoma having it still makes him a pussy who can’t archive nothing. This is what all the case should be focus, no? the key to the Eclipse and is being just there without adding to the story. Then why is even there? If you think about it, we can remove Thoma and the Silver Cross and still have all the other characters move around but then again we are tell Thoma is key to this case, then how he can be a key part if he isn’t important to resolve anything so far?

Yes, I will like to see a chapter when they study the Silver Cross, but I want to see them: “Have anything yet?” and then “Actually yes, we are now understanding more the Eclipse, how it works, why only affect some people and kill other and maybe even a cure” I mean doing something with the damn thing. Instead we have Shamal mention it, never being the matter up again and 3 months in a row where nothing happen. And that is the problem I have, you Kaijo say it yourself, this is boring and pointless but it should not be. This is just showing how poor Force is as a story that can’t remain with a single focus. Thoma should be still running and dealing with the powers of the Silver Cross, he being take by SD6 kill the story, because it should start to work to its end but now is stuck with no development to that arc in order to end the Hückebein’s one. I sense that as a flaw of Force. That is my point, how this should not be playing low, why? Because the Silver Cross is crucial to this case and now it isn’t but if its later brought back to light, why it wasn’t important in the mean time?

[Lhklan]

You know, why didn't they look for history records? If it truly originated in Ancient Belka, then there's bound to be a mention. Even if it's minor, they could find out where was it sighted, then travel there to look for more clues.

(Yes, this is my shameless attempt to insert our Librarian in it.)

[Sansker]

I don't think its a good idea. Yunno won't be there for too long

[Lhklan]

Originally Posted by Sansker

I don't think its a good idea. Yunno won't be there for too long

And why not? It's not like Yuuno have to actually go in the field. He can just direct them from afar, or send informations that he gathered.

[Sansker]

Yes but I consider he is actually a lot more than just the guy with the information. I will want to see him doing more, and the manga doesn't have room for him to do anything really

[Kurohane]

Originally Posted by Sansker

I am afraid no. Not here, the Relic logic doesn’t really work. Let me explain. The Relics were just power and by the end not even a key power to do anything, really. I mean yes, brainwash Vivio but to be fair Jail could do that without the Relics so really pointless there. But the Silver Cross isn’t the same, and it wasn’t present as the same. You see they all wanted the Silver Cross, hey even Veyron ask for it when he meet Thoma… and then he go for no good reasons. Ok maybe that wasn’t a good example but I am trying to make a point here.

The relic was implanted in her, in order to set her up as the "king" of the cradle. It was Quattro's illusion abilities that tricked Vivio into fighting Nanoha. Also, it wasn't just the book, Veyron wanted both Divider 994 and Strosek, which the book is connected to. Thoma became a target due to being of a person of interest by the SDS6 and simply being an infected by the Huckebein.

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

With a relatively quick google search, the best I can find on stab wounds is this peer-reviewed research paper, that analyzed various stab wounds and their mortality factor. Throat and chest stab wounds were more fatal, but even then, only a small fraction of those died. While stomach stab wounds weren't addressed per se, they did mention cardiac stabbings as considerably more survivable. And their lack of mention of stomach wounds is significant, because they were looking at mortality, and thus stomach wounds weren't seen as mortal.

And that's with our primitive medical technology, AND lack of healing magic.

Maybe you're thinking a bit too hard into this? since were anime (and specially the NANOHA franchise) has been renowed by medical accuaracy? (other than series like MONSTER which is a seinen series were the main character is a doctor xDU). Try to explain again Vita's wounds at the craddle or why Nanoha nerly died from a simple stab that wasn't even as big as Signum's several wounds ...tell me how many of those patients you investigated managed to recover 98% of their body functions (that is, beyond olimpic athlete level in Signum's case) within only two months of recovery (Nanoha took over a year to even walk ...magical healing and all xDU). Tell me if any of them survived for around 6 hours while bleeding to death (the human body contain only around 1 gallon of blood you know).

Medical accuaracy in fiction is all over the place. Fictional characters can survive impossible deeds like falling from the sky while other times they can simply die from a bullet in the stomach (in fact it's very cliche that people dies from bullets in the stomach in action movies, heck they die from stabs caused by POCKET KNIVES xDU). Signum's impalement goes trough her entire torso (specifically adressed in the manga she suffered spine injuries because of that) and as Keroko pointed out, the kind of blade Cypha used was a very wide one ...thus wider the injury and greater/quicker the loss of blood.

We have seen tons of evildoers in fiction manically laughing and declaring the death of another character after stabbing or shooting them in several places other than the head xDU Why is Cypha suddenly different xD?

Fictional injuries are as pragmatic as you say only when it's needed to get rid of a character without any doubts (or when the writer want's to showoff a character's immortality like Cell or Alucard xDU). Otherwise injuries are intended to be dramatic, otherwise villains whould be decapitatin heroes or ripping their hearts out of their chests all the freking time xDU

[Sansker]

Originally Posted by Kurohane

The relic was implanted in her, in order to set her up as the "king" of the cradle. It was Quattro's illusion abilities that tricked Vivio into fighting Nanoha. Also, it wasn't just the book, Veyron wanted both Divider 994 and Strosek, which the book is connected to. Thoma became a target due to being of a person of interest by the SDS6 and simply being an infected by the Huckebein.

I am not sure about Quattro using her power on Vivio but they did use a Relic, but still they only need one, not an entire collection of them so they could as well not use it at all. And I know about the Divider what I mean is how has no longer be an important aspect of the story and more a side element of the plot. If those things are centric then they should remain important, being the Silver Cross, Strosek, the Divider or all of them

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

Maybe you're thinking a bit too hard into this?

No, it's only fair he uses the medical research papers given that we're claiming these wounds to be dangerous realistically speaking as well.

[Sansker]

Agreed. I belive Signum could die and Cypha didn't care what happen to her. But if she wanted to make sure she will make it then the last attack was overkill, risking to go too far and actually killing the person they don't want to kill or so it seems. I will belive Cypha did try to kill Signum and the last survive because she is just awesome like that

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

That wasn't a simple stab it was full on impalement, besides it wasn't the only wound Signum had, Signum could lie in the grund perfectly dissabled with just the cross-slash but Cypha go for that extra mile and launched the killing blow. Sure behead Signum could be enough but so far we haven't saw graphic beheading on the Nanohaverse and i'm not sure if Tsuzuki wants to go to such lenght.

Yea, it'd be hard to get away in any sane court. "I didn't attempt to kill; I just umm, stabbed them really hard. They wouldn't have died anyways". That's a pretty shoddy defense.

Also the impalement serves better dramatic purpouses in storytelling than decapitation. Sure, decapitation is more effective but that way you wouldn't be able to leve the fandom in expectation about if Signum will or not make it ...a heavy double slash through the entire torso, arms and legs followed by an impalement provoked by a broadsword in the center of the abdomen (you know, one of the vital areas of the human body) is a rise a high possibility of death, even by mid-Childan medicine standards (the fact no one was near enough to provid Signum with immediate first aid also rised the risk ...so my point of Cypha K.O.-ing Agito), we can't be so easyly sure Signum could survive that which was kind of the point xDU Decapitation would be an instant death which leaves no doubt whatsoever which is only usefull if Tsuzuki wants to kill someone for sure without any doubts.

Agreed. There's a lot of tension that could be done with someone that is dying but not dead yet, and you fear for their safety. Wait a second, actually I just thought she'd been none the less for wear after flipping through enough pages. Though of course some damage is permanent, though strangely mostly to you.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Sansker

I am afraid no. Not here, the Relic logic doesn’t really work. Let me explain. The Relics were just power and by the end not even a key power to do anything, really. I mean yes, brainwash Vivio but to be fair Jail could do that without the Relics so really pointless there. But the Silver Cross isn’t the same, and it wasn’t present as the same. You see they all wanted the Silver Cross, hey even Veyron ask for it when he meet Thoma… and then he go for no good reasons. Ok maybe that wasn’t a good example but I am trying to make a point here.

What I mean, and what is my complain, is that the Silver Cross has done nothing so far and even Thoma having it still makes him a pussy who can’t archive nothing. This is what all the case should be focus, no? the key to the Eclipse and is being just there without adding to the story. Then why is even there? If you think about it, we can remove Thoma and the Silver Cross and still have all the other characters move around but then again we are tell Thoma is key to this case, then how he can be a key part if he isn’t important to resolve anything so far?

Why are the jewel seeds even there? They make Precia and Fate like pussies. The jewel seeds didn't even accomplish anything in the end.

Yes, I will like to see a chapter when they study the Silver Cross, but I want to see them: “Have anything yet?” and then “Actually yes, we are now understanding more the Eclipse, how it works, why only affect some people and kill other and maybe even a cure” I mean doing something with the damn thing. Instead we have Shamal mention it, never being the matter up again and 3 months in a row where nothing happen.[/QUOTE]

Three months our time. Considerably less in their time frame. So, you think everything should be instantly analyzable in the time frame of one day? Hell, they didn't even fully understand the relics, despite having quite a few of those in their possession! I want you to analyze and explain the frequency range the LHC found for the possible Higgs Boson. Both frequencies. Come back ready to answer any questions.

*THAT* is what these characters are dealing with: ancient advanced technology that is light years beyond them. They aren't going to understand it in a day. or even three months. And *when* they figure something out about it, they'll let you know. But being patient is hard, no?

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

Yea, it'd be hard to get away in any sane court. "I didn't attempt to kill; I just umm, stabbed them really hard. They wouldn't have died anyways". That's a pretty shoddy defense.

Just a point of clarification... but this isn't the standard court we'd be concerned with. Or rather, perhaps the court of public opinion. When the US tries to contain a mob or something in Afghanistan or Iraq, and kills a local, they get mighty peeved. So the US tries to use non-lethal methods, even if that injures, as they just hope they can heal up the injuries after. Sure, the populace will be upset... but not as much as if some locals had been killed.

[Sansker]

No, I mean three months on their time. You see Isis says on the first pages on chapter 20 that it has been 2 months and a half since she became a public officer… so, in all that time the Hückebein just sit and do nothing, the SD6 just sit and did nothing and Vandin just sit and did nothing. You know for all that crap about reading and keeping my facts you tell me Kaijo, you seem to be forgetting others yourself. Is that time skip what bothers me the most, and why I say they aren’t doing anything. And even if they were the focus of he story is no longer Thoma and him being something but rather Hardis and his evil plans while the Hückebein just want revenge or something.

And what I mean by Thoma being a pussy is this: he gets beaten by Kart Grendel. And when I guy who looks like a reject rock-star beats you, then you can assume your carrier is almost over. Besides we do seem him being unable to perform as Nanoha or even the Forwards after seeing almost unstoppable at the beginning, fighting Nanoha one on one. Is that need to are more characters and all being weaker than Nanoha what makes each generation of protagonist even lamer than the previous ones.

And the Jewel Seeds were a key part on Precia’s plans, she wanted to use them to go to Al-Hazard and force everything with just 9 because she was running out of time. Of course, facts only seem to be taking in to consideration when you mention them Kaijo, because when I do, it doesn’t seem to matter to you, just saying you are giving me the impression you want just to negate everything I say rather than add to it or just give another take on the matter.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Just a point of clarification... but this isn't the standard court we'd be concerned with. Or rather, perhaps the court of public opinion. When the US tries to contain a mob or something in Afghanistan or Iraq, and kills a local, they get mighty peeved. So the US tries to use non-lethal methods, even if that injures, as they just hope they can heal up the injuries after. Sure, the populace will be upset... but not as much as if some locals had been killed.

Not sure if they'd really care about public opinions, though I suppose you might be referring to the audience?

Also, I have a hard time grasping "non-lethal" methods since they tend to get really pissed at us regardless of the damage we cause, though if we were more reckless, it'd certainly be bad.

I can't really see such action of stabbing or impalement to be anything else with the intent of killing. Let's just say I would only see it as that, though I don't have magical powers. But even if I did, I'd think sure, it's not always lethal, but you'd assume there would be better ways of accomplishing that.

Well, there's certainly another reason for not having a decapitation and the most efficient way of killing-- sadism. If a method wasn't meant to just incapacitate but potentially cause slow and gradual pain, it would sound more like that. Of course, I have not read enough of the material to know if Cypha qualifies as that, so that's all I have to really say.

If you wanted me to be really cynical, I would say that Signum is still alive because of plot armor and not to permanently anger her (sane) fans.

[Kurohane]

^ Goes into my saying the killing of grunts won't cause much impact, but named officers will and well-known ones at that. Mind those Signum fans, I am not calling her a grunt. However, to Cypha, that's what she considered her at the time. Veyron had to point out the members of SDS6 were prominent people in the TSAB to Veyron, and I assume Curren knows as well considering she knows how Hayate is regarded, but the rest didn't seem to know at the time. I agree Cypha meant to kill Signum though she most likely she didn't know Signum was a program and had higher tolerence to wounds.

Originally Posted by Sansker

I am not sure about Quattro using her power on Vivio but they did use a Relic, but still they only need one, not an entire collection of them so they could as well not use it at all. And I know about the Divider what I mean is how has no longer be an important aspect of the story and more a side element of the plot. If those things are centric then they should remain important, being the Silver Cross, Strosek, the Divider or all of them

Yes, Quattro used her powers on Vivio in episode 24 I think. I agree the Divider has been sidelined for know, but I believe it will get back on the subject soon. As Kaijo said, it takes time to analyze these things. Just because we don't see it doesn't mean it's not happening. Unfortunately in Nanoha, this happens alot. I had a problem with Subaru's growth being highlighted in a certain episode after she spars with her sister. Ginga and the instructors talk about how far she has come from before. I couldn't really get into any of it because her growth mostly happened off screen. Back on topic, the investigation seems to take precedence over studying the Eclipse.

[Sansker]

Yes, this might be the case, but why I am saying is that if the Divider and Thoma are a key part they should not lose that much focus, just that.

[Kurohane]

I agree, just give it time. I'm used to this from Bleach, where focus shifts from Ichigo time to time.