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View Poll Results: Fate/Zero - Episode 21 Rating | |||
Perfect 10 | 52 | 48.60% | |
9 out of 10 : Excellent | 37 | 34.58% | |
8 out of 10 : Very Good | 11 | 10.28% | |
7 out of 10 : Good | 5 | 4.67% | |
6 out of 10 : Average | 0 | 0% | |
5 out of 10 : Below Average | 0 | 0% | |
4 out of 10 : Poor | 0 | 0% | |
3 out of 10 : Bad | 1 | 0.93% | |
2 out of 10 : Very Bad | 0 | 0% | |
1 out of 10 : Painful | 1 | 0.93% | |
Voters: 107. You may not vote on this poll |
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2012-05-31, 09:59 | Link #263 | |||
廉頗
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Massachusetts
Age: 34
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So you admire selflessness not from a moral perspective, but instead as a superior trait of one's character? As I see it, either you hate anyone who tries to be a hero (selflessness and selfishness, reasons be damned) as you seem to be saying in this post (?), or you simply admire being true to one's self above all else (which would explain why you find Kirei a better alternative to Kariya). Perhaps it's a false dichotomy on my part, but you present a fairly confusing line of reasoning, at least from my perspective. Maybe it's just a gut feeling on your part and not necessarily tied to any higher thought process/philosophical stance? That's what I'm starting to think... Quote:
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Last edited by ChainLegacy; 2012-05-31 at 10:09. |
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2012-05-31, 10:13 | Link #264 | ||
Romanticist
Join Date: Aug 2009
Age: 33
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2012-05-31, 10:16 | Link #265 | |
廉頗
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Massachusetts
Age: 34
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2012-05-31, 10:45 | Link #266 | |
Romanticist
Join Date: Aug 2009
Age: 33
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I'll make my position here very clear. Pardon me if it seems a bit like a rant. Spoiler for rant:
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Last edited by Qilin; 2012-05-31 at 11:52. |
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2012-06-01, 00:58 | Link #267 |
Snobby Gentleman
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Monterrey, México
Age: 43
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21st War: Knight on Two Wheels
If there is any story far tragic played before, during, and after the Holy Grail War is done, then is the tragic tale of Matou Kariya and Tohsaka Aoi.
From the hints directed in the first episode after Kariya and Aoi met again for so many years the subtleties clearly indicated that Kariya held repressed feelings of love for Aoi. It's just too overwhelmingly tragic that Kariya was played to fall into Kotomine's gloom banquet, triggering on him getting the fault and being viciously lambasted by Aoi's words. Spoiler:
Regarding to Matou Zoken and Kotomine's first unrequited meeting... Spoiler:
Last edited by Guido; 2012-06-01 at 01:22. |
2012-06-01, 05:50 | Link #268 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
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Only after his one year of torture, he shattered and became something else which was because he was not sane anymore. After how Urobuchi described the decrepit state of his body (which the anime does not do any justice), anyone would have broken. He went, shall we say, berserker consumed by the darker emotions in his heart as consequence of this agony which was entirely understandable? This wasn't just someone who suffered a sobstory of purely emotional shock. Let's not kid ourselves. Kariya's body was not functioning properly (it was a lump of dead diseased flesh consumed from the inside and moved by magic of worms), while his brain was not wiring at all (he was not even very coherent anymore and had lapses of falling from reality). Oh boy what did I miss: Quote:
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He festers his hatred after that because he can't literally turn hostile against Zouken. The worms get "excited" and devour him faster if they sense that. So he needs an outlet to focus ins sanity and remain alive and keep going into a painful fight until he dies. That's Tokiomi. Just like Aoi in a moment of grief blamed Kariya irrationally about Sakura's situation; Kariya did the same with her husband (although he did have better reasons to blame him, since Aoi... told him it was his idea?). Except his agony was non-stop. It became an habit. That's how I saw it. Over the time it passes and anchors as a goal, but go back and read the description of Kariya. The first battle leaves him covered in his own blood. His mind is beginning to slip away. Why do you think Berserker was his partner? It was a parallel of his descend into madness. Re-read the chapter where Waver and him talk in the forest. He's unable to use the full potential because he has not prana to back it. It's the same as Gilgamesh doesn't use full power of Ea (with the world tearing apart effect which is in most of his battles), despite invoking the true name.
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Last edited by Thess; 2012-06-01 at 06:18. |
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2012-06-01, 07:54 | Link #269 | ||
Romanticist
Join Date: Aug 2009
Age: 33
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Another aspect we aren't seeing eye-to-eye with is the nature of Kariya's love for Aoi. Even if he directed all his bitterness towards himself, I believe that, given a chance to redirect it to another target (like Tokiomi for instance), he would do so willingly. Of course, he couldn't direct his resentment towards Tokiomi at first since he's the man that Aoi chose, and doing so would be morally unacceptable (to him). However, after finding out about Tokiomi's fault with Sakura, the bitterness he harbored could then be redirected to a much better target (Tokiomi). At that point, he managed free himself from his self-pity after finding a much more suitable outlet to receive his hate. Of course, this process is mostly unconscious, so he could freely hide this under the pretense of heroism or altruism. I could probably even extend my position and say that he used the pain and suffering he went through in Zouken's to rationalize his hatred for Tokiomi. I've read several posts arguing that Kariya's hatred for Tokiomi is just a reflection of his hatred for Zouken, but isn't that the same thing? The idea that he needed to concentrate his hatred Tokiomi to retain control of his servant, to me, is just a convenient excuse he tells himself to his hatred more acceptable to his eyes. So yeah. In short, to me, that anger and resentment he displayed throughout the war was already stored within him long before the war, perhaps in the form of self-pity or self-loathing. He just needed the right outlet to release it.
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2012-06-01, 08:59 | Link #270 | ||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
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You sound like a Tokiomi fan. It's fine to like that character, but that makes you absolutely venomous to Kariya for some reason. Oh well…
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Kariya is hardly a coward. He rebelled against Zouken during his youth. Hardly what I call a cowardly action since he's scary. He is, though, extremely reckless and jumps the gun a lot which is how he landed in his hands again. This was his primary mistake and flaw. Which is obviously equally problematic. He was convinced? I see. The novels are a third person narrative. Therefore, you can say the author himself describes his motives. They were noble prior one year of torment. They were also based on guilt if you want to bring forth the less selfless heroic ones. Even Kirei calls his reason: atonement. Quote:
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Tokiomi is just easy to hate from an outsider's POV: aloof, arrogant, even tells Kariya he wouldn't mind if his daughters battled to death when he asks. Because all his reasons are incomprehensible to a normal person like Kariya tries to be. Of course he hated him after and blamed him for everything, even his own state I think which was born from the hopeless bitterness of his circumstances (and Sakura's). Nothing heroic there, but understandable. When he gave into bitterness, jealousy and hatred began to spread because he began to consider the what if scenarios. Quote:
Kariya just felt a lot of hatred, between the torture, he could only take it out with a clear target in mind which happened to be a real obstacles to free Sakura. It was not something rationalized, it was more like instinctual if that makes sense. More like an animal in some way, the more that his state keeps degenerating. It seems his actions in the Church can be read as self-preservation instinct that he would crumble into pieces and die the moment after he lost the sight of his goals. He behaved less like a person and more like an automat there. That's what I mean of an outlet, it's a purely emotional reaction based on self-preservation. Not too dissimilar to Kiritsugu in some ways (who reasons he can't stop because it'll be meaningless). ...Or maybe he stored the anger and resentment in one year straight of intense torture? Since there was no clear evidence of its existence until that gap? Oh, sure, there were some hurt feelings but they were never a big deal to justify I'LL KILL YOU TOKIOMI BUGS OF HELL I CHOOSE YOU. It was frustration that he was dying painfully too. A lot of people gloss over this when it was something that shook him. I'm shocked that they do. After all, he's agonizing in an awful way with bugs eaten him inside, Berserker dream-raping him and sucking his life out, and other gross things. It isn't only for Sakura outrage you know. He is living a hell.
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Last edited by Thess; 2012-06-01 at 09:23. |
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2012-06-01, 10:41 | Link #271 | ||||||||||
Romanticist
Join Date: Aug 2009
Age: 33
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He's probably one of the most boring characters in this show from my perspective. On the other hand, I'd like to believe that Kariya's character goes much deeper than just someone for the audience to feel sorry for. His character just has so much potential in displaying the human condition. Quote:
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Well, if his guilt from leaving his position in his family is his sole motive, as opposed to the fact that Sakura is Aoi's daughter, then I'm willing to concede this. Can you acknowledge that? For example, if it were anyone else, would Kariya still take the same risk? I'm not a novel reader btw, so please keep that in mind. Quote:
I go by the belief that each case of "insanity" should looked at individually since putting it all in the same category creates dreadful misconceptions. From my perspective, I saw Kariya's "insanity" as something that essentially crippled the conscious restraints that kept his stored up emotions in check, the potentially dangerous emotions that he refused to accept in the first place. Quote:
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As for Aoi, let me quote you for that: Quote:
People who have lost something dear would feel strong negative emotions, emotions that would require an outlet of some sort. In other words, they need someone to blame to vent their negative emotions on. As such, when a convenient target arises, they immediately direct their feelings there. That's exactly what Aoi did. Quote:
What we're arguing here is the means and the end. To you, the end is "saving Sakura" and means is "killing Tokiomi". To me, it's the other way around. Quote:
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Last edited by Qilin; 2012-06-01 at 10:51. |
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2012-06-01, 11:32 | Link #272 | |||||
The Opened Ultimate Gate
Join Date: Dec 2011
Age: 29
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2012-06-01, 11:50 | Link #273 | |
Romanticist
Join Date: Aug 2009
Age: 33
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On the surface, he is doing it for Sakura, but I'm also convinced that this is an excuse he tells to himself to justify his desire to hate Tokiomi.
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2012-06-01, 11:52 | Link #274 |
Gamilas Falls
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 46
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^Aren't you just inventing a secondary justification just to support your dislike of a character. From what the others are typing, this secondary justification is not supported by facts from the primary source material.
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2012-06-01, 11:56 | Link #275 |
Romanticist
Join Date: Aug 2009
Age: 33
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^ All I'm saying is that my interpretation can coexist with whatever everyone else believes in, I'm not imposing my view on anyone else. I can probably imagine someone bringing up Occam's Razor or whatever, but I just find it more meaningful to interpret his character in that manner. Labeling one interpretation as a "secondary justification" is leading since implies that one is better than the other without question, when, in fact, that is the point of this discussion in the first place.
And quite unfortunately, I believe even the text given by the source material is not all that immune to alternate interpretations as well.
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Last edited by Qilin; 2012-06-01 at 12:14. |
2012-06-01, 15:56 | Link #276 | |
廉頗
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Massachusetts
Age: 34
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I see how you could interpret it differently and I'm not authoritative enough on the source material to rebuke your interpretation, but some clues to me that he genuinely cares is how he despises Zouken and is mortified by Sakura's treatment. He displays these emotions completely separately from Aoi. If he didn't really care, then he'd only be trying to look good in front of Aoi. I think it's somewhere in between, he cares about both factors, and he seemed like a level-headed guy before the Zouken infestation. What normal person wouldn't want to get the girl out of there? And going to the extremes that he did, sacrificing his body like that, can't be entirely selfish, at least IMO... it's selfless actually, regardless of the impure feelings he may have had or not. It's too great a sacrifice with too noble a goal to be boiled down to one selfish desire. I also disagree partially with your 'rant,' as you put it. I think that there are some people out there who certainly have selfish motivations in mind, but do great things because of it. For instance, philanthropy in general in the modern sense of it is very much a PR move, but good things come of it anyways. Another example might be religious people who secretly desire to get into heaven for their good actions rather than really care about the people they are helping. In my view, again it's a little annoying due to being disingenuous, but if good results come of it, I don't see why we should complain. I do think you show something of your own moral judgment in that being a quality you despise. My morality steers me less towards caring about one's motivations and more for the results. In Kariya's case it ends in disaster, but that is simply due to the manipulation of outside forces. Thus, I do not hate him as you do - for I believe his mission was good in nature, and care less about his intentions then the hypothetical goal in mind of saving Sakura. Though like I said above, I think his intentions were mixed and not all selfish, as you do. |
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2012-06-01, 17:59 | Link #277 | |||
Romanticist
Join Date: Aug 2009
Age: 33
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I don't want to call my judgments "moral" since it implies holding a person against some arbitrary metaphysical standard of "good" and "evil". I'd rather say that my dislike runs along the lines of feeling pity or disgust towards a beggar on the street. As a person who loves studying the psychology of characters, I enjoy looking at the rationale behind all sorts of actions made, especially the ones that lie beneath the surface. As such, I believe studying a character in inseparable from looking into their motivations and thought process.
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2012-06-02, 08:43 | Link #278 | |
Eaten by goats
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
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2012-06-02, 10:44 | Link #279 | |
Romanticist
Join Date: Aug 2009
Age: 33
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2012-06-08, 02:56 | Link #280 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2011
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I like Kariya, he indirectly got rid of a bad father, and directly got rid of a horrible mother for Rin.
I mean, the father was so careless the daughter almost got herself killed, while the mother is so passive I doubt the daughter would even learn anything from her. (Maybe how to be a horrible person who will never understand another, probably) Kirei would raise Rin to be a fine person, that would be best. But if Kariya won at this point, it wouldn't change Sakura's fate since she has no legal guardian that will live long time anyway. (So she would be adopted by zouken, again.) |
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