Madoka Magica - Movie 3 Spoilers and Speculations

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

If that sacrifice/loss causes more grief for Madoka than the happiness she receives from being Madokami, then Madokami ought to be shown emoting that, given Madoka's overall characterization. Madokami doesn't emote the slightest amount of sadness (if anything it's quite the contrary), so there's no good reason to think that Madokami is significantly unhappy on the whole.

The issue with relying solely on visual evidence is that it is obviously unfeasible to portray Madoka at every moment in time and in every situation. Does the fact that Madoka was never explicitly shown to be sad, mean that she was never sad? Taking only a summary of Madokami's appearances as a whole (limited as it is, in particular) ignores the context of those appearances. I don't think the evidence is nearly strong enough to suggest that Madoka was never unhappy, particularly at points (assuming Madoka's awareness/sentience) such as Junko feeling nostalgic over Madoka's name portrayed in the TV series' final episode.

Do you think people are incapable of being happy after their parents pass on? Perhaps some are, but I think the majority are still able to be happy on the whole. So I'm sure Madokami could similarly be happy on the whole.

You know, some people enjoy having a strong sense of duty. It gives them happiness and a sense of purpose. I think there's plenty of good reason to think that this is true of Madoka and Sayaka. In the TV series, Madoka spoke of wanting to feel useful to people. It's quite possible that as Madokami she felt tremendously useful to a lot of people, and hence was very happy as Madokami.

The issue with what you are proposing here is that you are essentially attributing a selfish motivation to Madoka, moreover a selfish motivation which overrides any regret she had over separating from her family ('abandoning' would in fact be appropriate here, given the original series' emphasis on Junko's desire for Madoka not to throw her life away). I don't think that it is false or it would've been wrong if Madoka acquired some satisfaction from her role as Madokami, but attributing it as any part of her motivation (instead of her selfless love/dedication and empathy towards others) corrupts the themes of the story. If Madoka were merely seeking self-satisfaction (from the perception of having done good for others) rather than being concerned with the direct effects of reality, it would trivialize the entire significance of her wish and its preceding character development, as well as reduce Homura's struggle to the level of absurdity (why did she save Madoka so many times? Why did she dedicate her life to protecting her/honouring her sacrifice? Not for a person who genuinely felt pain and wished for the happiness of others, but someone who was even self-destructively sacrificial for the sake of self-satisfaction?).

Essentially, whatever satisfaction Madoka felt in her role as Madokami (and I agree that there should be some), it simply cannot be any factor in her motivations. Madoka's motivations (for being a god) need to be selfless to stand on the same level with Homura's, otherwise all criticisms of Homura cannot even be fielded. Not to speak of Rebellion, if the weight of Madoka's sacrifice (separation from the human world, in particular her family) cannot be taken as significant and genuine then even the meaning of the original series falls apart and loses gravity.

[Szadek]

Originally Posted by Shyni

Does Homura actually have any plans to combat entropy, or defeat the Wraiths?

I don't think she cares about entropy.It's possible she doesn't even know about it.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Hell, this is a Madoka who doesn't know about magic. She might not even understand that Homura isn't talking about, like, stealing things, or something.

Pretty much.In fact we know that Madoka is willing to break the rules.
She rewrote the laws of the entire universe for crying out loud.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

And unless Homura has a way of permanently stopping the Wraiths, he should still be recruiting. That said, I don't think Madoka is a viable target simply because Homura's in control and can pretty much make Kyubey leave her alone now. "She's off limits. Go near her, die. Talk to her, die. Let her become aware that magic exists and you will wish I had simply killed you."

That being said, Madoka could PROBABLY make another wish, if the opportunity was set for it.

The incubators most likely want her regardless.
The universe was made for her,therefore her magical potential should be enormous.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I don't see any good reason whatsoever for thinking that Madokami wasn't, on the whole, happy and content. I think Homura's actions were misguided (even if understandable), and I think I have very good reason for thinking that.

I agree.Episode 12 portrays Madoka's sacrifice in a very good light.
She was looking for a purpose in her life and she wanted to help other people.
That's excatly what she got.

Of course,it's possible that she is unhappy,but there is no evidence for that.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

It does invalidate it. Homura's reason to do what she did is that Madoka was unhappy to some extent. If she's mistaken about that, then her reasoning as invalid and her actions misguided.

That's what gave her the idea, yes.

But in the end, I think Homura did what she did simply because she wanted to be with Madoka. That was the main reason, and whatever Madoka said to her was just a justification on her part.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Endscape

That's what gave her the idea, yes.
But in the end, I think Homura did what she did simply because she wanted to be with Madoka. That was the main reason, and whatever Madoka said to her was just a part of it.

If she wanted to be with Madoka, she could have let her take her soul gem and they would have been together just fine, so I don't think that's an important part of what motived her "rebellion." Besides, it's not like they're together at the end. They go to the same school but they're not friends of anything, and I don't see them becoming close any time soon.

Homura just concluded that she needed to save Madoka from being a god. That's her motivation.

[AuraTwilight]

Yeah but the writer also wants to make Homura the wrongdoer here, because he's working on a theme. Of course in real life duty and desire don't make a perfect duality. Anyone who isn't a nutcase would actually reply they're not necessarily mutually exclusive. Yet in this case, they are mutually exclusive. Even if the Madoka Homura's talking to doesn't know the whole story, she knows enough. She knows that what's most important to her as a person is being close to her loved ones, but she also knows that she would be willing to throw that away if she didn't have any other option. That's enough, both to validate what Homura's doing but also to make it clear Madoka will never see eye to eye with her.

I don't think we're really disagreeing on this part per se, but I'm saying the theme is...well I want to say it's a misleading theme.

The movie is from Homura's point of view, to the point that she is dialetically creating the stage, casting the characters, and framing all the events in this movie. If there's a theme, it's because she's creating one in a very meta fashion. We're seeing the world through her lenses, tinted with her values system.

There is a duality between duty and desire because she herself is separating them, and the movie concludes this by setting her up as a being to oppose. With violence, certainly not.

Madoka is going to have to oppose her philosophically. That means rejecting the themes that compose Homura's worldview and motivations. Her way of thinking is not healthy and she needs to be disavowed of it.

Although those statements could be argued with reasonable confidence for Puella Magi, I don't think they can be applied to Madoka's normal acquaintances or her family. Even without direct visual evidence of Madoka emoting, there is certainly an element of genuine sacrifice/loss in Madoka's separation from her family.

I was very specifically speaking of how Madoka is omnipresent and thus doesn't personally miss her loved ones, while her loved ones don't remember her and thus cannot miss them. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

That being said, my personal headcanon is that if Madoka ever finishes collecting all Magical Girls forever, she's gonna have a lot of free not-really-time-because-she's-outside-it, and might collect EVERYONE.

Nothing says she can't.

The incubators most likely want her regardless.
The universe was made for her,therefore her magical potential should be enormous.

Her magical potential would be enormous either way, she is a goddess pretending at being a human being. But I don't think the Incubators want her because they have no means of opposing Homura and she is very willing to make them suffer for it in ways they never thought possible.

Also Kyubey's last line in the movie is basically "Holy sh*t this magical girl thing was a bad idea abort abort give me a ticket to the Nope Train heading to F*ck Thatville."

[silvercover]

I can sort of see that the incubators would be just aiming for average girls nowadays instead of hunting for ones with big potential... then again though, average girls are more likely to die in combat than the special ones so...

its also likely that they'll be looking for other means to harvest energy aside from humans, but for now they're going to be taking in those grief cubes from the wraiths due to homura's control.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

I think thematically speaking the movie would be pretty empty in that case.

If I'm right, there's still some themes you could take from this movie. In fact, you could consider these themes more practical than raising a very binary "duty vs. desires" idea that's probably too simplistic for most people in most situations.

Rebellion could be viewed as a dark comedy of errors on the part of the primary players involved, with cautionary notes all around. Such a tale would also be consistent with Gen's darker-themed nature.

"Don't mess around with people and things that you have a weak understanding of." (cautionary note based on what happened to Kyubey)

"If you want something done right, do it yourself." (cautionary note based on what happened to Madoka)

"Try to avoid assignments that could leave you conflicted, and don't talk in riddles to people that are a bit impulsive in being quick to act." (cautionary note based on what happened to Sayaka)

And most importantly, given who's the main character of the movie...

"Nobody can truly know another person 100%. So it's not your business to be making decisions for other people. You should respect other people enough to make their own decisions." (cautionary note for Homura)

Personally, I think those make for some pretty good, practical themes.

But really, the movie just doesn't even attempt to invalidate Homura's reasoning.

Then why does Madokami panic when Homura starts overwhelming her? From my perspective, that's the movie throwing serious doubt on Homura's reasoning.

Why would a person panic over being liberated from an unhappy state of being? It just doesn't make sense to me, especially in this case.

Madokami once declared Homura to be her best friend, so she should think that whatever it is that Homura is doing is well-intentioned at least. This isn't exactly like getting mugged by a stranger in a dark alleyway.

Look, if the movie didn't want my conclusions to be viable, then there's all sorts of things it could (and should) have done/executed differently. It didn't have to have Madokami panicking. It could have just had her looking perplexed and/or conflicted. The movie also didn't have to have Homura acting like some megalomaniacal villain straight out of a superhero comic.

These visual depiction choices have consequences. It frames the actions in a specific light, which can support (or undermine) particular interpretations.

You said there is evidence that Homura was mistaken but there's none as far as I can see.

I've explained the evidence, but perhaps actual screenshots would work better.

Spoiler for Madokami 1:

This person above is obviously the very picture of depression. Turning her back to human? No, we need to do that *and* get her to a mental health professional, right away!

And her two friends aren't much better.

Spoiler for Sleigh bells ringing, can you hear them?:

Wow, my heart goes out to these two. I mean, what with the Christmas-y magical sleigh ride feel of it and all. Their deep melancholy would make Haruhi Suzumiya blush. They're certainly in need of immediate help.


On the flip-side...

Spoiler for Happy days are here again!:

Madoka is overjoyed at getting this gift for her alone.

Spoiler for Turn that frown upside down!:

Just feel the cheer in the air! Definitely a person experiencing great relief at having a burdensome weight lifted from off of her shoulders.

In all seriousness, that is the perfect frown... It's almost comical.

Spoiler for School spirit rises high!:

Even Love Live! and Disney can't compete with this level of pure bliss and euphoria. I'm here crying tears of joy at such a moving, heartwarming ending.

Oh, and as for this joyous girl's childhood friend...

Spoiler for She may have blue hair, but her mood certainly isn't blue! ^_^:

Massive improvement over before. When I think "bubbly contentment", this is the sort of face I imagine.


So I guess you're right, Kazu-kun. We have no reason to doubt that Homura's conclusions about Madoka are correct. Really, we don't.

[Szadek]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

There is a duality between duty and desire because she herself is separating them, and the movie concludes this by setting her up as a being to oppose. With violence, certainly not.

Madoka is going to have to oppose her philosophically. That means rejecting the themes that compose Homura's worldview and motivations. Her way of thinking is not healthy and she needs to be disavowed of it.

I don't think a violent confrontation is impossible,even though neither of them wants to fight.
After all,Madoka killed Mami to protect Homura and Homura is capable of hurting Madoka short-term for a long-term goal.
Even then ,it would a dialogue heavy fight.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

But I don't think the Incubators want her because they have no means of opposing Homura and she is very willing to make them suffer for it in ways they never thought possible.

I'm sure they want her,but Madoka is simple out of reach.
However,these bastards are smart,chances are they sercetly looking for a way to contact her regardless.
Madoka is also their best chance, since her powers are on a par with Homura's and she is always willing to help.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

The issue with relying solely on visual evidence is that it is obviously unfeasible to portray Madoka at every moment in time and in every situation.

So what do you attach more value to?:

1. An answer given by a person lacking key memories, and hence addressing a very general idea without knowledge of very specific circumstances that could quite conceivably change her answer.

2. A person with all of their memories restored, who looks completely happy.

I think it makes much more sense to attach greater value to the latter of these two. I'll take clear visual evidence over an uninformed answer to a somewhat loaded question. There's a lot more issue with the alternate (uninformed answer to a loaded question) than with clear visual evidence, imo.

Does the fact that Madoka was never explicitly shown to be sad, mean that she was never sad?

Madoka the human being is sad sometimes. For that matter, do you know anybody who is happy 100% of the time? I don't.

This is the key question - Is Madokami reasonably content and happy on the whole? I think the balance of evidence strongly favors "Yes, she is".

The issue with what you are proposing here is that you are essentially attributing a selfish motivation to Madoka, moreover a selfish motivation which overrides any regret she had over separating from her family ('abandoning' would in fact be appropriate here, given the original series' emphasis on Junko's desire for Madoka not to throw her life away). I don't think that it is false or it would've been wrong if Madoka acquired some satisfaction from her role as Madokami, but attributing it as any part of her motivation (instead of her selfless love/dedication and empathy towards others) corrupts the themes of the story.

I strongly disagree. It simply humanizes Madoka and makes her much more relatable/understandable, which in my view strengthens the themes of the story and the overall effectiveness of the story.

Nobody is 100% selfless. People are quite capable of having multiple motivations for one particular choice of action. Some of those motivations may be selfless and/or altruistic. Others may be selfish. That does not mean the motivations negate one another.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

So I guess you're right, Kazu-kun. We have no reason to doubt that Homura's conclusions about Madoka are correct. Really, we don't.

Nice pictures. They don't invalidate Homura's conclusions though. Keep reading:

Then why does Madokami panic when Homura starts overwhelming her? From my perspective, that's the movie throwing serious doubt on Homura's reasoning.

No at all. Madoka might be unhappy as a god but she wants to uphold her duty. Homura's screwing that over so of course Madoka would be distressed. Homura's reasons aren't invalidated by this. The same goes for all the pictures you posted. None addresses the fact that the plot, the dialog, disagrees with your interpretation. What these pictures question is Homura's methods. She wanted to help Madoka, and her reason was sound, but the way she went about it might end up destroying the world and making Madoka even more unhappy if she ever finds out. The morality issue is about her methods and actions, not her motivation/reasoning.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

I don't think we're really disagreeing on this part per se, but I'm saying the theme is...well I want to say it's a misleading theme.

The movie is from Homura's point of view, to the point that she is dialetically creating the stage, casting the characters, and framing all the events in this movie. If there's a theme, it's because she's creating one in a very meta fashion. We're seeing the world through her lenses, tinted with her values system.

There is a duality between duty and desire because she herself is separating them, and the movie concludes this by setting her up as a being to oppose. With violence, certainly not.

Madoka is going to have to oppose her philosophically. That means rejecting the themes that compose Homura's worldview and motivations. Her way of thinking is not healthy and she needs to be disavowed of it.

I see where you're coming from now. I disagree though. Madoka would reject Homura's choice (the fact that she chose to follow her desires instead of upholding the greater good) but I don't think she rejects the theme (duty vs desire). I don't get that from the movie at the very least. Maybe a new writer doing a sequel could go in that direction, but I don't think that's what Urobuchi had in mind in this movie.

[AuraTwilight]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

I think thematically speaking the movie would be pretty empty in that case.

There's also the continuation of themes from the series, such as how saving people means controlling them and how that's ultimately unhealthy.

Or the conflict between what people really want and what they say they want.

But really, the movie just doesn't even attempt to invalidate Homura's reasoning.

Yes it does. Madoka, Sayaka, and others disagree, Homura is painted as a devil-figure, and everyone calls her actions wrong and dangerous to the world at large.

Most importantly, there's doubt on her reasoning purely because it conflicts with the reasoning and philosophies of the most enlightened being and Big Good in the universe.

I don't think a violent confrontation is impossible,even though neither of them wants to fight.
After all,Madoka killed Mami to protect Homura and Homura is capable of hurting Madoka short-term for a long-term goal.
Even then ,it would a dialogue heavy fight.

Yea, but it probably won't happen because violence won't accomplish anything. They're both omnipotent. It'd probably be something like a Shaping Duel out of Exalted.


....Holy shit I hope it's a Shaping Duel, I'd crap my pants in glee. For those not in the know, in the Exalted tabletop RPG, fairies are basically monsters very similar to witches, and only understand concepts and stories. So when they fight, they attack each other's narratives, integrity, and sense of identity in duels involving highly symbolic, illusionary, reality-warping things.

"I am an infinite ocean. Fire cannot exist ever again and never did exist because of me, snuffing the Prince of Flame before he could ever be." "I am not just the Prince of Flames, I am Hunger and Devouring. I simply swallow up all the water, down to the last infinite drop."

Imagine Homura and Madoka constantly warping reality during their dialog, one second throwing galaxies at each other, the next moment they're calmly drinking tea, a television giving news about the world which keeps changing between mutually-exclusive 'good news' as they pro/con each other's intended worlds.

I'm sure they want her,but Madoka is simple out of reach.
However,these bastards are smart,chances are they sercetly looking for a way to contact her regardless.
Madoka is also their best chance, since her powers are on a par with Homura's and she is always willing to help.

Yea except Homura controls them and has all of her attention on Madoka. As soon as they so much get near her she's probably going to permanently kill whichever one of them does, or something. Assuming they can reach her at all (They're unable to speak to or appear infront of Madoka due to Homura's new laws, for instance).

Nice pictures. They don't invalidate Homura's conclusions though.

Yes they do; not because they prove anything in of themselves but because the true Madoka shows no signs of needing Homura's intervention or being dissatisfied. See below.

Does the fact that Madoka was never explicitly shown to be sad, mean that she was never sad?

...Uh, kind of? It's called Conservation of Narrative Detail. If we, the audience, are intended to accept Homura's conclusion that Madokami is choosing duty over her own happiness, we would be shown this somehow, in some way, that isn't tainted by personal bias, like, I don't know, Sayaka going, "Three people just for one girl is a bit much, but...it can't be helped. The boss was pretty heart-broken without her, afterall~!"

No at all. Madoka might be unhappy as a god but she wants to uphold her duty. Homura's screwing that over so of course Madoka would be distressed. Homura's reasons aren't invalidated by this. The same goes for all the pictures you posted. None addresses the fact that the plot, the dialog, disagrees with your interpretation. What these pictures question is Homura's methods. She wanted to help Madoka, and her reason was sound, but the way she went about it might end up destroying the world and making Madoka even more unhappy if she ever finds out. The morality issue is about her methods and actions, not her motivation/reasoning.

Literally not a single thing in the entire movie indicates that Madoka is unhappy with being a God except for Homura's personal bias. I'm sorry but the flower scene is too obfuscated for Madoka to have given a meaningful answer. She had no idea what Homura was talking about at all. If this were a court room and you used these sorts of conditions to get any sort of confession or testimony or anything, it'd get completely thrown out.

Homura isn't doing this because she has a good reason to think Madoka is unhappy; she concludes Madoka is unhappy because it validates Homura's regression to her previous way of life. She's so broken that she can't live if it's not for the sake of imposing her guardianship onto Madoka; that's the whole point of the broken nutcracker symbolism.

She's going to save Madoka whether she likes it or not. Whether she wants it or not. Whether she NEEDS it or not. She doesn't know what to do with herself otherwise, and she hates herself for failing her task the first time around. Quite literally, forcing Madoka into a safe, happy, normal life where Homura will protect her from everything that will change her is the only thing keeping Homura from blowing her own brains out.

And that's sick, and it's unhealthy, and it's a sign that Homura's reasoning and point of view cannot be trusted. She's literally insane, and she's consumed by self-hatred, and it's so poisonous that it's destroying everything she valued in her life.

She wants to save Madoka, but in so-doing she's fighting to suppress the beautiful, inspiring character traits that made her fall in love with her in the first place.

She wants to save Madoka, even if it means destroying her friendship with her and making everyone hate her.

She wants to save Madoka, even if she is infact responsible for Madoka's continued suffering as a result of it.

She wants to save Madoka, even if it means dooming all other Magical Girls.

She wants to save Madoka, even if it means nothing Madoka does will ever matter or be of any consequence, ever again.

In trying to protect Madoka, she is trying to control her, and keep her from changing, growing into her own person, and leaving her mark on the world as is the right of all human beings. She might know this, and she might feel bad about it, but she's still doing it, so her remorse isn't very meaningful.

And she does all of this because Homura hates herself, and if she can't do this, she is unworthy of living. And when she succeeds, she still won't be worthy of living. Homura is very likely to kill herself if it ever comes time that Madoka is no longer in need of her. If, hypothetically, Homura lives to see an old lady Madoka die after living a perfect life, she'll probably kneel infront of her gravestone and eat a pistol.

This is horrible. This is insane. It's literally the worldview of an irrational person who's conclusions cannot and do not follow from the data she's been fed. She cannot be trusted to give us accurate themes of the series in her own words, because pretty much one of the themes is that she's WRONG. This was true in the TV series too ("Kindness leads to naivete", etc).

Homura exists to tell the audience things that Madoka will prove false. Homura exists to perpetuate problems that Madoka will solve.

Homura exists to need helping, because Madoka will help people. Because saving someone is to control them, and Madoka is better than that.

I see where you're coming from now. I disagree though. Madoka would reject Homura's choice (the fact that she chose to follow her desires instead of upholding the greater good) but I don't think she rejects the theme (duty vs desire). I don't get that from the movie at the very least. Maybe a new writer doing a sequel could go in that direction, but I don't think that's what Urobuchi had in mind in this movie.

Literally everyone in the movie rejects the theme except for Homura, who is painted as the villain at worst and a broken bird at best. She also spends literally the whole movie fighting against, insulting, destroying, killing, and rejecting herself.

The Rebellion is against Homura Akemi.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Nice pictures. They don't invalidate Homura's conclusions though.

Those pictures conflict with Homura's conclusions. They clearly suggest that Homura might be wrong.

No at all.

Yes, it does. Plus, I was speaking from my perspective. Are you saying that my perspective has to be the same as yours?

Madoka might be unhappy as a god...

There's no real evidence of this. But there's plenty of visual evidence to the contrary.

... but she wants to uphold her duty.

So? That would just mean that she's happy to carry out what she considers to be her duty.

Homura's screwing that over so of course Madoka would be distressed.

Madoka is distressed because she wants to remain as Madokami and she's happy/content as Madokami.

Homura's reasons aren't invalidated by this. The same goes for all the pictures you posted. None addresses the fact that the plot, the dialog, disagrees with your interpretation.

The plot and dialog does not disagree with my interpretation. You have not demonstrated that my interpretation disagrees with the plot. Characters are allowed to be wrong, you know. It's quite common in fiction for characters to come to wrong conclusions. Homura is not infallible. In fact, Homura was shown to be totally wrong at least once in this film with her BeBe suspicion. Homura is not above coming to incorrect conclusions.

So I have provided a sensible and viable interpretation of the Rebellion movie, its plot, and its themes.

What these pictures question is Homura's methods. She wanted to help Madoka, and her reason was sound, but the way she went about it might end up destroying the world and making Madoka even more unhappy if she ever finds out.

There's no reason to think that Madoka was unhappy as Madokami.

I see where you're coming from now.

Why can't you say that to me as well? You really don't see where I'm coming from?

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

I was very specifically speaking of how Madoka is omnipresent and thus doesn't personally miss her loved ones, while her loved ones don't remember her and thus cannot miss them. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

Actually, I apologize for being insufficiently clear on this too. Basically, my contention was to say that I'm doubtful that the two aspects of Madoka's omnipresence and her absence from the memories of her loved ones could believably compensate the full consequence of being unable to interact with them, or the indirect effects of Madoka's absence from their lives.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

So what do you attach more value to?:

1. An answer given by a person lacking key memories, and hence addressing a very general idea without knowledge of very specific circumstances that could quite conceivably change her answer.

2. A person with all of their memories restored, who looks completely happy.

In fact, my arguments up to now had not been making any reference to the flower field scene of the third movie. The grounding for my belief that Madoka could not have been completely happy as Goddess Madoka actually came from my experience/interpretation of the TV season. I especially raise the point again of Junko's nostalgia over the name 'Madoka'. A second point of irony/tragedy can be applied to, in spite of Madoka's maturation beyond either of their wildest imaginings, what became of Junko and Madoka's promise to go drinking together after she reached adulthood.

This is the key question - Is Madokami reasonably content and happy on the whole?

Actually, this is the premise I have been resisting from the very beginning: on the basis of solely the visual evidence, it is not possible to make the conclusion that Madoka is anything more than "reasonably" happy. As you say, you will rarely find a person who is 100% happy. Given the multiple reinforcements the series provides of Madoka's feelings towards her friends and family, there is more than enough reason to believe (from my perspective) that she would have periods of missing them even in all her capability as Goddess Madoka. And as justification for Homura's action, even that simple fragment of yearning is more than enough, because the singular aspect of Homura's motivation is nothing but Madoka's happiness. It does not matter if Madoka can be believed to be 'happy on the whole'; so long as there's reason to believe that Madoka could be happier, Homura's struggles have room for justification.

(Rather, my ultimate expectation for the resolution of Homura and Madoka's conflict has been from the start that they will both become happier. Although something of an implicit/meta reasoning, it has been enough basis from the start for me to have always seen Homura's actions as justified.)

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

...Uh, kind of? It's called Conservation of Narrative Detail. If we, the audience, are intended to accept Homura's conclusion that Madokami is choosing duty over her own happiness, we would be shown this somehow, in some way, that isn't tainted by personal bias, like, I don't know, Sayaka going, "Three people just for one girl is a bit much, but...it can't be helped. The boss was pretty heart-broken without her, afterall~!"

In context, that comment was referring solely to visual evidence (and only negative evidence, at that) of the presence of unhappiness in Madoka's demeanor. There are other reasons to accept that, as Madokami, Madoka has embraced a more hardened/dispassionate (as opposed to joyous) attitude towards 'duty': namely the scene we saw of Madokami beginning to recover her memories (which was quite unlike any Madoka we have seen before). I think the image of an adult/mature Madoka, with the backbone to fully and consciously choose duty over her personal happiness, is actually very compelling and the strongest rebuke to the infantilizing aspects of Homura's protection. I don't believe that insisting that Madoka gains happiness from her charity helps to strengthen Madoka's character; if we overemphasize the idealistic union of 'desire' and 'duty', it is to basically ignore that charity is often a thankless task.

Homura isn't doing this because she has a good reason to think Madoka is unhappy; she concludes Madoka is unhappy because it validates Homura's regression to her previous way of life. She's so broken that she can't live if it's not for the sake of imposing her guardianship onto Madoka; that's the whole point of the broken nutcracker symbolism.

She's going to save Madoka whether she likes it or not. Whether she wants it or not. Whether she NEEDS it or not. She doesn't know what to do with herself otherwise, and she hates herself for failing her task the first time around. Quite literally, forcing Madoka into a safe, happy, normal life where Homura will protect her from everything that will change her is the only thing keeping Homura from blowing her own brains out.

And that's sick, and it's unhealthy, and it's a sign that Homura's reasoning and point of view cannot be trusted. She's literally insane, and she's consumed by self-hatred, and it's so poisonous that it's destroying everything she valued in her life.

She wants to save Madoka, but in so-doing she's fighting to suppress the beautiful, inspiring character traits that made her fall in love with her in the first place.

She wants to save Madoka, even if it means destroying her friendship with her and making everyone hate her.

She wants to save Madoka, even if she is infact responsible for Madoka's continued suffering as a result of it.

She wants to save Madoka, even if it means dooming all other Magical Girls.

She wants to save Madoka, even if it means nothing Madoka does will ever matter or be of any consequence, ever again.

In trying to protect Madoka, she is trying to control her, and keep her from changing, growing into her own person, and leaving her mark on the world as is the right of all human beings. She might know this, and she might feel bad about it, but she's still doing it, so her remorse isn't very meaningful.

And she does all of this because Homura hates herself, and if she can't do this, she is unworthy of living. And when she succeeds, she still won't be worthy of living. Homura is very likely to kill herself if it ever comes time that Madoka is no longer in need of her. If, hypothetically, Homura lives to see an old lady Madoka die after living a perfect life, she'll probably kneel infront of her gravestone and eat a pistol.

This is horrible. This is insane. It's literally the worldview of an irrational person who's conclusions cannot and do not follow from the data she's been fed. She cannot be trusted to give us accurate themes of the series in her own words, because pretty much one of the themes is that she's WRONG. This was true in the TV series too ("Kindness leads to naivete", etc).

Homura exists to tell the audience things that Madoka will prove false. Homura exists to perpetuate problems that Madoka will solve.

Homura exists to need helping, because Madoka will help people. Because saving someone is to control them, and Madoka is better than that.

Haha, I kind of just wanted to quote this because I can see how much fun you had writing it. In any case, I don't actually particularly disagree with your analysis on Homura but the thing is none of that really takes away from how Homura is justified. As it is, if Madokami is Madoka's self-actualization (which she was granted through the pains and struggles of Homura), then Homulily is simply Homura's equivalent self-actualization, no matter how sick and twisted it is. The essence of Homura's revolution is that the factual matter of whether Madoka was sufficiently happy as a goddess is now irrelevant; through the manifestation of Homura's will, she can now force Madoka to be happier. Homura's transformation fully fulfills her objectives in a manner which is consistent with her core motivations. If part of those motivations are self-loathing and hatred towards the world, that only makes her (to me) a more fascinating character :P. To speak of Homura's 'justification' as simply a question of whether she (and I) will or have been satisfied with the outcome of her actions, at the present point I can only think 'hell yes'.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

The grounding for my belief that Madoka could not have been completely happy as Goddess Madoka actually came from my experience/interpretation of the TV season.

It's true that Madoka was very close to her parents.

However, it's also true that Madoka wanted to be useful to other people, and felt that she was lacking in that regard. I think that was at least as big a part of Madoka's characterization in the TV series as her attachment to her parents was. So becoming Madokami enables Madoka to achieve a big personal dream for herself (even if it is simply as a side-effect of a more central purely altruistic aim). It only makes sense to me that there would be considerable happiness in achieving that dream.

I think that the happiness gained in achieving that dream would trump any sadness resulting from being separated from her parents given that Madokami likely knows that her parents and brother are living on happily even without her there.

And as justification for Homura's action, even that simple fragment of yearning is more than enough, because the singular aspect of Homura's motivation is nothing but Madoka's happiness.

I think it's enough to make her actions understandable. I think it's enough to make Homura at least somewhat defensible.

But I think viewers are still free to conclude that, on the whole, Madoka would have been better off if allowed to remain as Madokami. That a fully aware Madoka would have preferred that, and not purely as a matter of duty. But also as a matter of personal ambition, and happiness at realizing that ambition through being Madokami.

Well, there is a possible exception here. If Homura was to enact a means through which Madoka could achieve her dreams without becoming Madokami, then a good argument could probably be made that Homura's actions were beneficial to Madoka on the whole.

But, alas, I'm fearful that what Kaisos Erranon wrote here could be mostly if not entirely accurate.

What he wrote: The thing is that as long as Madoka has a purpose, as long as she feels that she's making a difference, she's happy.
Homura -cannot- be happy unless Madoka is safe, normal, static and therefore purposeless.
Their goals are inherently incompatible.

If he's right, then Homura's actions ironically and tragically send Madoka down a path leading to dissatisfaction, low self-esteem, and ultimately unhappiness. This is not what Homura would want Madoka to feel, so I don't necessarily fault Homura's intentions here, but results do matter of course.

It does not matter if Madoka can be believed to be 'happy on the whole'; so long as there's reason to believe that Madoka could be happier, Homura's struggles have room for justification.

The issue I see here is that Homura's attempts to make Madoka happier don't seem to be going much beyond making Madoka a normal human girl again. Well, Homura did make Madoka a transfer student from America, but whether this dramatic change in Madoka's personal history has been to her personal benefit is a matter of pure speculation.

Madoka may have gained friends in America, which would be good, but her existing friendships with Hitomi and Sayaka now have a considerable 3-year gap to them, if not a complete negation (it depends on how long Hitomi and Sayaka were friends with Madoka).

(Rather, my ultimate expectation for the resolution of Homura and Madoka's conflict has been from the start that they will both become happier.)

I'm sadly skeptical of this myself given Kaisos' argument, and my own take on the situation.

There are other reasons to accept that, as Madokami, Madoka has embraced a more hardened/dispassionate (as opposed to joyous) attitude towards 'duty': namely the scene we saw of Madokami beginning to recover her memories (which was quite unlike any Madoka we have seen before).

I kind of disagree. Madokami didn't look unusual to me here. She certainly didn't make me think hardened or dispassionate. And not long after she gets her memories back, we see her smiling very widely (in one of the screenshots I provided above). This clearly conveys happiness, imo.

As it is, if Madokami is Madoka's self-actualization (which she was granted through the pains and struggles of Homura),

Homura deserves some credit here, but so does Madoka herself. Madokami could have not occurred if Timeline 1 Madoka had not saved Homura's life in the first place.

If part of those motivations are self-loathing and hatred towards the world, that only makes her (to me) a more fascinating character :P.

Fascinating character, sure. But definitely not a place you'd want a character to remain, imo.

To speak of Homura's 'justification' as simply a question of whether she (and I) will or have been satisfied with the outcome of her actions, at the present point I can only think 'hell yes'.

Wow, so I take it you hated the Madokami concept then? I mean, since you seem very gung-ho over Homura tearing it down completely.

[Archon_Wing]

I have to admit, Madoka Magica has been a special series to me since it concluded with a perfect sense of closure. There is of course an entire universe to explore, but those seem to be the realm of supplementary material, and to find a way to continue this series? Certainly possible.




The most notable thing about the movie is that it looks really nice. The character designs are nice and shiny, it's actually animated, and the variety of colors was really well done with that relaxing music which is really the star of the series. This is of course intentional-- this place is supposed to be an idyllic paradise with a hint of irony, well except to one



Good thing we didn't get real actors to play this, otherwise their necks would be broken!

Unfortunately, the movie does seem to suffer from a sense of overindulgence. The first part of the movie can be dismissed as intentionally gratuitous. But some things are so drawn out to point of annoyance, and I'll make it pretty clear that while some of the directing shots are really nice, others were just plain eyerolling. Which brings up the first issue with this film-- it's way too anvil heavy.


The Puella Magi plan for their new Ipod commercial

From a storytelling perspective, it was interesting for Homura to discover the secret of the world. The first few minutes were actually creepy taking everything in context. It was so saccharine and ridiculous-- even adding that ridiculous meme of Charlotte as Mami's pet, every yuri angle ever, flanderization of each character's defining tendencies, making it feel like I'm watching a really terrible fanfiction, albeit highly animated.


Yea, seriously it felt like it was a bad fanfiction where you and I were making out...
Really? Why would that enter your mind?
Wanna try it out though?
Well, it's not like we have anything better to do in this shithole

In a way when watching this, I was thinking Gen Urobuchi hates You. Yes, you, you and, especially you. Fan fantasies and theories and desires, he hates them all, and has decided to mock them all. Being trapped in a fan fulfillment fantasy is a terrible fate after all. That would be a funny point, but dragged out a bit too long. Oh well, at least it's not like the creator got too petty at viewers missing the point and opened with something dumb like Homura masturbating to an unwary Madoka. Though I bet people would pay to see that too.

Though an interesting point is how Sayaka at least has really left her troubles behind, while Mami and Kyoko haven't changed too much; that of which is a nice plot point but it also brings closure to her character. "Oh that guy doesn't love me? I have Kyoko Fuck him!"

And indeed, if I were to pick the most improved character from anime to movie, I would say she would win. Unfortunately the story is about something else.



*Insert gruff sounding Christian Bale Voice* WHERE IS SHE? TALK..
I don't...
SOMEONE KNOWS WHERE SHE IS

To complete the Batman analogy, Homura decides to jump out a window but Mami doesn't like Homura's interrogation tactics. So what do they do? Ask Yuki Kaijura to recycle her Fate/Zero music and EPIC FIGHT TIME!



And holy shit, that was pretty awesome and the visual cues here were spectacular, with a nice twist at the end. Mami's too plot armored this time and Homura just isn't very good at strategy, rather pressing the autoattack all the time with an occasional utility skill and attempts to overrun Mami with brute force With a pistol/shield build, it's just not going to work against a good rifle user. And that's why I named my engineer in Guild Wars 2 after her, because I play like Homura and look cool most of the time but get owned spectacularly the rest. But this isn't about my lackings as a person, it's about Homura! Although Mami's definitely been keeping her head low this time.

But it really gets down to the problem that Homura really just leaps at every opportunity to get to an advantage and suffers from tunnel vision. Tunnel vision is often a source of downfall and tragedy in Madoka, so Homura has needed Madoka's help and Homura's own determination to get through. But has she really learned something? It's okay, it's aesop time now!



So here we learn to Homura really hasn't accepted Madoka's leaving too. Madoka did it for the greater good. Homura did it for Madoka. Homura doesn't give a fuck about the greater good honestly, and shit... is Kyubey back again? Will she be able to overcome her own lack of importance while Madoka sits up there being all important?



Blah blah blah blah Technobabble
Wait, Closed Space? So is Haruhi season 3 trapped there with us?
It is. But we didn't plan that. You see, you human beings are irrational and are capable of evil far greater than we could imagine. We really shouldn't have meddled with you guys, but how else will Shaft make more money?
.... You exploited us!
True, Homura Akemi. But with this new movie, you got to do cool stuff and see your Madoka again. We did you a great favor, and now you're going to pull out a plot device and screw us over again?

Of all honesty, this was just getting tiring. They could have really cut parts of this out as in the end it's really just a twist within a twist and doesn't really add anything besides give QB something to do as well as pushing Homura over. Whatever.


I'll do worse. I'm going to become the main character

But on the other hand seeing Homura take out QB in a way that is reminiscent of Madoka finding a loophole does ring a bell.

Unfortunately, after all this she realizes she cannot have Madoka, and fuck it, why should she suffer while everyone gets happiness? And thus Homura came up with a plan. The only way for her to see Madoka more was to prolong the series. And as we know, since QB is out, we need a Face Heel Turn


What are you thinking Homura?
That's right sister! Puella Magi as you know it is no more! This is the future of Magical girls! The world, the universe, the fans? Well, they can stick it sister! If it weren't for Homura, Akemi, Akuyuki Shinbo would be stuck selling bad clips of brothers shoving toothbrushes down their sisters' throats! If it weren't for Homura Akemi, nobody would have heard of Gen Ubourchi! So with the universe changed, whatcha gonna do when the NHO runs wild on you?

And the worst case scenario happened. In the series, Homura's undying love for Madoka seemed the be the only thing that could withstand the curse of a witch. It was one of the purest things you could find, despite being insanely fragile. I mean this weak hearted girl forced herself out of love to become the last standing Puella Magi, and now that she thinks that Madoka needs the ultimate evil for the role to complete, Homura's forced herself to take that role too. That kind of wish allowed for that kind of power.



At this point now, the movie got a bit harder for me to take seriously. I mean Homura here is doing hilariously evil things like knocking teacups over. Yes I get the point that she's crazy, but it's bizarrely cute in a way. Maybe it's just me but yo, isn't this sort of on the blatant end? Or maybe Gen's wondering how much it'd take for a fan favorite to get hated.


Wait a second. That's right. I'm the main character damn it!

Unfortunately for Homura, you can't just capture a god like that and Madoka's will proves to be just as strong as Homura's butthurt lust. That's going to set the stage for the ultimate conflict! Wait why does this remind me of

Spoiler for Big spoilers for Shakugan no Shana:

But first, we must become enemies and engage in a convoluted plan that will undoubtedly hurt tons of people. And I must adopt this really bad style of dress and hair. And I'm not going to explain shit either

Just asked!!! Urusai! Urusai! Urusai!

There, I bet I spoiled movie 4.

And we end the movie with a Homura that's totally lost her sanity with a Madoka that remains dormant. But ultimately, the most disturbing thing is that not that she lied, cheated, or stole. It's not that she brainwashed witches to cover the crimes of other witches. It's that she can live with it. And she will live with it. Chiwa Saito's amazing acting as Homura really got her points across, regardless of how loony the character was. Massive props to her.

Overall, the movie was a lot better than I anticipated, though ultimately, I don't really think I gained too much insight and the movie functions better as a "what if" scenario". Still, I won't deny that I greatly enjoyed seeing the series come back, although it does make me wonder at what cost. I'd say the movie is an 8/10 on my arbitrary scale. I guess personally, I wouldn't be able to accept such a dark ending, though the saccharine world of the first third of the movie shows that sometimes much like in the Matrix, can't accept a perfect world, because we are human. And if anything beyond all the fluff, the movie at least stays true to that. Homura was never really a hero. She just wanted a wish and like many before her, her dreams fell to the wayside, and her witch is so powerful because her wish is so powerful. Maybe even temporarily more powerful than Madoka, but we'll have to see.


So, have you ever danced with the devil in the pale moonlight?

[AuraTwilight]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Actually, I apologize for being insufficiently clear on this too. Basically, my contention was to say that I'm doubtful that the two aspects of Madoka's omnipresence and her absence from the memories of her loved ones could believably compensate the full consequence of being unable to interact with them, or the indirect effects of Madoka's absence from their lives.

That's a very fair point. I'll raise the point that Madokami is also timeless. Can she really CHANGE, then? Like can she go from not missing her family to then missing them later? It's not like she experiences days, weeks, years...

Haha, I kind of just wanted to quote this because I can see how much fun you had writing it. In any case, I don't actually particularly disagree with your analysis on Homura but the thing is none of that really takes away from how Homura is justified. As it is, if Madokami is Madoka's self-actualization (which she was granted through the pains and struggles of Homura), then Homulily is simply Homura's equivalent self-actualization, no matter how sick and twisted it is. The essence of Homura's revolution is that the factual matter of whether Madoka was sufficiently happy as a goddess is now irrelevant; through the manifestation of Homura's will, she can now force Madoka to be happier. Homura's transformation fully fulfills her objectives in a manner which is consistent with her core motivations. If part of those motivations are self-loathing and hatred towards the world, that only makes her (to me) a more fascinating character :P. To speak of Homura's 'justification' as simply a question of whether she (and I) will or have been satisfied with the outcome of her actions, at the present point I can only think 'hell yes'.

I had a LOT of fun writing that, part, lol. Anyway, I think you and I are on the same page here. While I'm not really doubting Homura's motivation or that it makes sense for her character, I'm refuting Kazu-kun's implication that Homura can be 'right' or thematically validated. I think it's pretty clear that the audience is meant to refute Homura's thesis.

If it comes down to an ideological debate between Homura and Madoka, I'm going to side with the latter every time. One is an enlightened being who's able to see past her own emotional state and the other is a broken bird who can't let go.

Also, Archon Wing's post was a really great read, thanks for that.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

If it weren't for Homura Akemi, nobody would have heard of Gen Ubourchi!

Pretty sure Fate/Zero would disagree with you. In fact, I watched this series because of his reputation from Fate/Zero, so...

I know a lot of your post, especially the italics, were tongue-in-cheek, but just wanted to point that out.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

In a way when watching this, I was thinking Gen Urobuchi hates You. Yes, you, you and, especially you. Fan fantasies and theories and desires, he hates them all, and has decided to mock them all. Being trapped in a fan fulfillment fantasy is a terrible fate after all. That would be a funny point, but dragged out a bit too long.

I wish people would stop pretending that big projects like television shows or movies are the result of a single person's creative choices.
Regardless of the saccharine nature of Rebellion's first third, many of those "fanfiction-like" scenes are likely in there, and play out the way they do because the staff wanted to see them, and knew that the fans wanted to see them... Urobuchi is not the only one who worked on the movie, and indeed the interview booklet that comes with the BD makes it sound like he was actually one of the less important creatives involved, in the grand scheme of things.
This said, it's still very much an Urobuchi story, as the ending isn't much different from Kikokugai's... what I'm trying to say here is that while you view those "fanfiction" moments as ironic, they were definitely intended to be genuine, if slightly trollish at times.

Originally Posted by GDB

Pretty sure Fate/Zero would disagree with you. In fact, I watched this series because of his reputation from Fate/Zero, so...

For that matter, he was writing eroge long before that. Hell, I first heard of him thanks to reading Saya no Uta.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

I wish people would stop pretending that big projects like television shows or movies are the result of a single person's creative choices.
Regardless of the saccharine nature of Rebellion's first third, many of those "fanfiction-like" scenes are likely in there, and play out the way they do because the staff wanted to see them, and knew that the fans wanted to see them... Urobuchi is not the only one who worked on the movie, and indeed the interview booklet that comes with the BD makes it sound like he was actually one of the less important creatives involved, in the grand scheme of things.
This said, it's still very much an Urobuchi story, as the ending isn't much different from Kikokugai's... what I'm trying to say here is that while you view those "fanfiction" moments as ironic, they were definitely intended to be genuine, if slightly trollish at times.

I wouldn't be so sure about that.

It's easy to get the impression that Nagisa was created just so Mami wouldn't be lonely once the "canon pairings" split off from her. In other words, Nagisa was created for the benefit of Mami fans who like yuri shipping. And yet, the new girl who is seemingly there to be paired off with Mami; this new girl is strongly tied to the Charlotte witch of all things. I mean, I don't think you can get much more ironic than this, lol.

Then there's how Kyouko and Sayaka's one big moment is interrupted, in a very cheesy way, by Nagisa.

Finally, you could even argue that the much more yandere-esque Homura who overwhelms Madokami in the end is a subtle dig at some HomuMado shippers, given how some fanartists portrayed that pairing prior to Rebellion.

I think one can reasonably conclude that the movie is actually poking some fun at fan fantasies and theories. I think Archon might be more right here than you're giving him credit for. I could easily see these "fanfiction-like" scenes being intended to be ironic.

[Tyabann]

Charlotte has been shipped with Mami before, you know. Also, it's not like Homura being a yandere wasn't a thing in fanfiction (hell, it was a thing in fanart even before the show was halfway over), it's just that Rebellion takes it much further than a fan would feel comfortable doing...
The thing that makes me suspicious of the notion that the movie is intended as this big, like, HA HA SERVES YOU FANS RIGHT FOR SHIPPING EFFECTIVELY OFFICIAL PAIRINGS SO HARD, HA HA is that the staff themselves are obviously fans.
Simba even said something about how Madoka has become a collaborative work between the staff + the fans, and Urobuchi's remarks in the BD booklet are something about how he hopes to see people tell lots of new stories given the scenario as presented in the ending...
So, yeah. There's that.