[Manga] Chapter 342 Discussion

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by ShikaShika

I certainly have no problem what so ever with Sasori's death (other than the 'he wanted to die' thing so that Kishimoto could excuse two chicks beating a guy). I loved the image of his parents stabbing him as a homage the memory of how he used to make the puppets hold him, that was a very nice moment.

The emotional ending to that fight does not justify the *emotionless* puppet's mistake at the end...

But I don't really see the point about an emotional fight, why can't we expect more out of Kishimoto even though we might not delve into the sad backgrounds of various characters? The way Naruto fooled Kakuzu was simply too unimaginable, I can't believe that's supposed to be a plot twist worthy of chapter number 342.

Kishi would try to extend a fight full of emotions - that should lead to the elimination of one of the sides - rather than finish it early.

And, was it really a plot twist, did you honestly expect Kakuzu to win at the end?

I don't really understand your point about Deidara's win either. Gaara didn't lose because he was stupid but because Deidara was smart. The same can't be said for Kakuzu unfortunately.

I didn't give that example to show which side is more stupid. It is merely to show the effect of plot based modifications, and whether they can be justified or not based on where you stand. Naruto used his advantages - bunshins and speed - intelligently, even sacrificed maybe 1/3 of his chakra to create a RasenganShuriken to trick Kakuzu (it is like Itachi using one MS to trick his opponent), and risked the safety of his own body to win it all.

I guess we all value different fights differently, but for me these two coppout fights were something of a lowpoint in the series so far...

You may not see it the way I see it, but it is really sad to see the level of injustice displayed towards Naruto compared to other favorable characters in similar fights. And, I strongly believe, if a similar trick was used by Sasuke or Itachi against Kakuzu, we would have heard lots of flattering words towards Sasuke/Itachi from the same posters who now criticize Naruto/Kakuzu for what they did.

[Lemartes]

Originally Posted by astayanax

Kakuzu didn't really get overpowered; he got tricked in the most retarded of ways that completely goes against the character he was portrayed as before Naruto came into the scene. You can excuse him for not knowing how Naruto fight and nearly getting killed the first time; but coming out from that he should had known waaaaaaaaaaay better.

People don't seem to understand that this wasn't a 1 on 1 fight; but a 1 on many fight. Kakuzu specialises in wide destruction jutsus and he is fighting someone who can do the same, if not more than him. However, Kakuzu doesn't have any one else on his side to worry about. Logic would dictate to attack the other people who he, I and everyone else on this forum knows can't defend against his attacks either forcing Naruto to watch them die (which we all know he won't since he already saved them with Yamato), or to let the real Naruto jumped into the open to save them which sooner or later will give Kakuzu the opening he needs to win the fight. Yes, Kakuzu doesn't have an endless supply of chakra; but he didn't have to. Even ignoring this, there was absolutely no reason for Kakuzu to leave himself totally defenseless knowing that there are ninjas out there in the vicinity who already destroyed his hearts and can easily finish the job if given the chance.

And what would have changed his fate if he attacked the others? Narutos clones were able to do this jutsu. They wouldn't have stopped with it. It doesn't matter whether the real naruto attracted his attention or the companions. The thing is: his clones did a super high level jutsu, which he didn't take into account.
And if he had killed the bushins which are by no means weak, naruto would most likely have been able to hit him just like the other time.

In my book he was overpowered.
He may be a super cool ninja with decades of experience. But he was weakened by 2 hearts already. Take this into account.

[Luminion Lancer]

Originally Posted by Sinaura

Should we expect Kyuubi Naruto anytime soon?

-Speaking as a Kyuubi-fanboy I would love nothing more than to see Naruto active even more of his Tailed modes. Those are probably the only times where Naruto's expression looks menacing enough to cause little children mental trauma for the rest of their lives. But realistically speaking, Naruto has stopped relying on such a method of fighting that we cannot expect him to do this again unless the plot would allow it. This is the whole reason Naruto was given another training arc, to make him stop relying on the Kyuubi's Tailed Modes. I'll admit, I wasn't happy with that decision but I decided to give it a chance anyway. It's doing good so far so let's hope it doesn't backfire...

[gibits]

Originally Posted by astayanax

Kakuzu didn't really get overpowered; he got tricked in the most retarded of ways that completely goes against the character he was portrayed as before Naruto came into the scene. You can excuse him for not knowing how Naruto fight and nearly getting killed the first time; but coming out from that he should had known waaaaaaaaaaay better.

Naruto got the best of Kakuzu twice in a row. I'd say that was pretty good.

Naruto's strength is not in question here, nor his tactics and skills. It is simply the way how Kishimoto dumbed a ninja like Kakuzu who should had known waaaaaaaaay better.

You say you don't question Naruto's skills or tactics but spend a long paragraph doing just that......

Has it occurred to you that Kakuzu wasn't that ninja that was dumbed down for plot reasons? Kakuzu played his hearts close (who knows when his idoit partner will stab himself again), He's faced with even more opponents now and less hearts, I would think not sending you're hearts out will-nilly.
And adjusted his tactics to take out Naruto, you know the guy he was sent to get? why would be focus on these other ppl when his objective was right there? Look at the Haku fight, Haku didn't attack Naruto until he felt that Sasuke was a threat. Why would Kakuzu think Naruto was a threat? He already has all of Naruto's tactics figured out. So your "attack other people" arguement fails.

That one that was dumbed down was Naruto, Kishi made his first clean hit a dud. If that one hit maybe all the haters on these boards would settle down. That's my main gripe with this fight.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Sazelyt

You may not see it the way I see it, but it is really sad to see the level of injustice displayed towards Naruto compared to other favorable characters in similar fights. And, I strongly believe, if a similar trick was used by Sasuke or Itachi against Kakuzu, we would have heard lots of flattering words towards Sasuke/Itachi from the same posters who now criticize Naruto/Kakuzu for what they did.

Oh come on!
You don't think it was a stupid move for Kakuzu to let all his hearts at the same place whereas he has the abilities to split them, to let the clone unchecked whereas he could have dispatched the said hearts to AOE them, to assume that he knew who was the real Naruto whereas Bunshin's main advantage is to trick people this way, to assume this because of the FRS whereas he's fighting a Jinchuuriki with tremendous chakra, to wait patiently Naruto & co to chat and prepare their attack doing nothing whereas he was on the offensive before Naruto arrived, etc.
Well that's fine -even if the only thing Kakuzu had to do to mess up Naruto's plan was to fire his Flame and Wind heads behind him while attacking his target.
But enough with the "boohoo you complain about poor Naruto and his fight because you're a Sasuketard" arguement.

Kakuzu was never gonna win this, he was going down and I don't think I saw anyone trying to arg otherwise. What people are saying is that they wish he was beat differently, that's all.
Nothing too fancy either, the real Naruto Henge into a weapon launched behind Kakuzu while all the clones were taken down Zabuza style would have been enough to do the trick for me.

Just not ignoring all the clones and assuming which one was real, period.

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by gibits

That one that was dumbed down was Naruto, Kishi made his first clean hit a dud. If that one hit maybe all the haters on these boards would settle down. That's my main gripe with this fight.

Well, no matter how you put it, this part will be always a theme of debate.

One thing, I don’t think this is a topic of Hate towards a character (as I myself have grown fond of Naruto since part 2 has start), this is just that people don’t like the idea of a Shinoby like Oro, Jiraiya, Tsunade, Orochimaru or Yondaime falling for such tricks. Reason why a lot of people just say that Kakuuzu got dumb down for that sake, this has noting to do with Naruto, but everything to do with Kakuuzu and Kishimoto choice.

[Sinaura]

Why was kakuzu dumbed down? We all know Naruto's character revolves around the notion of unpredictability and the way he handles fights is inconsistent with the way others would go about it. I find this instant no different than the time he tricked Zabuza way back turning himself into a shuriken. He tricked Neji into believing he was down for the count in their chunnin fight, when clearly Neji was an overall better ninja than him. Naruto has always found ways to trick his enemies in the past that made up for his "ninja IQ". The only problem I had with the fight between Kakuzu and Naruto was that it was too short.

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Oh come on!
You don't think it was a stupid move for Kakuzu to let all his hearts at the same place whereas he has the abilities to split them, to let the clone unchecked whereas he could have dispatched the said hearts to AOE them, to assume that he knew who was the real Naruto whereas Bunshin's main advantage is to trick people this way, to assume this because of the FRS whereas he's fighting a Jinchuuriki with tremendous chakra, to wait patiently Naruto & co to chat and prepare their attack doing nothing whereas he was on the offensive before Naruto arrived, etc.
Well that's fine -even if the only thing Kakuzu had to do to mess up Naruto's plan was to fire his Flame and Wind heads behind him while attacking his target.

Why would it be stupid? The hearts are something he control, right? In that case, if he cannot even control his back, how will separating the hearts that he cannot even control effectively help him?

I have said in the previous chapter thread, and partly in this one; what if the strategy was actually the best possible he had in terms of *what he had given* not *what we have given after the fight ended*? How can you blame Kakuzu, if Naruto was *the only one ever* who was able to use bunshins against him this going-beyond-the-expectations way before?

You know, Kakuzu might be stupid in other ways we currently don't know, but I don't think it is at the level to try something risky against the group facing him, assuming that there would be none around to back them up. If he had acted against them and create and opening, and if there is another group around to attack and kill him, wouldn't you agree with me, that you would consider him again stupid?

But enough with the "boohoo you complain about poor Naruto and his fight because you're a Sasuketard" arguement.

Sorry, but I haven't seen any exception to that rule (even though I haven't made that rule).

Kakuzu was never gonna win this, he was going down and I don't think I saw anyone trying to arg otherwise. What people are saying is that they wish he was beat differently, that's all.
Nothing too fancy either, the real Naruto Henge into a weapon launched behind Kakuzu while all the clones were taken down Zabuza style would have been enough to do the trick for me.

Just not ignoring all the clones and assuming which one was real, period.

You are critizing what Naruto achieved; considering either what Naruto had done as stupidly simple, and what Kakuzu had done as stupidly, well, just stupid.

But, if you think of just *one* simple detail, which is, for me, one of the likely scenarios, that Naruto has gained an *incredible speed boost* at the last moment, which is beyond Kakuzu's calculations and in a way completely shattering Kakuzu's expectations, doesn't that increase the importance of Naruto's attack and decrease the mistake on Kakuzu's side?

And, in that case, wouldn't that make what Kakuzu had done as not ignoring the clones, but only inaccurately estimating the strength of the clones - in other words Naruto going much above his expectations based on what he had observed so far?

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by Sinaura

Why was kakuzu dumbed down?

Because unlike Zabuza or Neeji, Kakuuuzu was someone that had the experience of a Hokage or even higher. In other words, people don’t expect someone as Sandaime or Yondaime to fall for that trick.

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by Rurik

Because unlike Zabuza or Neeji, Kakuuuzu was someone that had the experience of a Hokage or even higher. In other words, people don’t expect someone as Sandaime or Yondaime to fall for that trick.

What if Kakuzu had done what you said - over-estimating the abilities of the clones and gave 1/4 of his attention to each clone/original, and what if the clone Naruto was actually the original one, and what if the attack was powerful enough to destroy or give significant damage to Kakuzu who has diverted his attention unnecessarily? Would that make him intelligent, after wrongly guessing the original/clones and what they are capable of once again?

Or, to show that he is an intelligent fighter, should he have run away to save his ass, just like Itachi, saying there is still one month for the kid to get captured?

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by Sazelyt

What if Kakuzu had done what you said - over-estimating the abilities of the clones and gave 1/4 of his attention to each clone/original, and what if the clone Naruto was actually the original one, and what if the attack was powerful enough to destroy or give significant damage to Kakuzu who has diverted his attention unnecessarily? Would that make him intelligent, after wrongly guessing the original/clones and what they are capable of once again?

Well, I’m just talking about falling for a trick That in my mind I don’t see an Experience Shinoby such as Orochiamru, Sandaime or Yondaime falling for it. such on how Oro didn’t fall for Sai bushin trick. Maybe Kakuzu actually not neglecting a lot of things a Experience Shinoby wouldnt had Done so. If he fell in any other more credible way, I would had just said Naruto was just too good, as he did Against Zabuza.

Or, to show that he is an intelligent fighter, should he have run away to save his ass, just like Itachi, saying there is still one month for the kid to get captured?

Well you know what they say, the brave are the one that go earlier to the Grave.

[Sinaura]

Originally Posted by Rurik

Because unlike Zabuza or Neeji, Kakuuuzu was someone that had the experience of a Hokage or even higher. In other words, people don’t expect someone as Sandaime or Yondaime to fall for that trick.

Zabuza was still a jounin and Naruto was just a newly promoted genin. Proportionately, I'd say Naruto of back then tricking a Jounin Zabuza is equal to Naruto of now tricking an Akatsuki member like Kakuzu. And just because he has experience equal to a kage doesn't mean he knows how to deal with such an unpredictable ninja like Naruto, what Naruto is famously known for. Time and time again he's surprised such great ninjas like Orochimaru, Sarutobi, Tsunada, and kakashi by his feats. It's naruto's unpredictability that allows him to compete with the elite and competent ninjas in the Narutoverse.

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by Rurik

Well, I’m just talking about falling for a trick That in my mind I don’t see an Experience Shinoby such as Orochiamru, Sandaime or Yondaime falling for it. such on how Oro didn’t fall for Sai bushin trick. Maybe Kakuzu actually not neglecting a lot of things a Experience Shinoby wouldnt had Done so. If he fell in any other more credible way, I would had just said Naruto was just too good, as he did Against Zabuza.

If he hadn't left his half offensive strength (who knows maybe less), and if there weren't many unknown and unfinished opponents left, including the ones that are not in his visible range, maybe, he wouldn't have felt to be limited in many aspects, and he would have acted accordingly, without any concerns or constraints...

But, we all know that was not possible.

He had to make his plans to have the best chance of winning against that many opponents, and maybe not escape, like some would do. And, unfortunately for him, his plan failed earlier than expected because of the obstacle in front of him being greater than he had foreseen. At least, that is how I see.

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by Sazelyt

If he hadn't left his half offensive strength (who knows maybe less), and if there weren't many unknown and unfinished opponents left, including the ones that are not in his visible range, maybe, he wouldn't have felt to be limited in many aspects, and he would have acted accordingly, without any concerns or constraints...

But, we all know that was not possible.

He had to make his plans to have the best chance of winning against that many opponents, and maybe not escape, like some would do. And, unfortunately for him, his plan failed earlier than expected because of the obstacle in front of him being greater than he had foreseen. At least, that is how I see.

Well, You know how I see it, I will always see as Kakuuzu been dumb for the sake of the plot.

Originally Posted by Sinaura

Zabuza was still a jounin and Naruto was just a newly promoted genin. Proportionately, I'd say Naruto of back then tricking a Jounin Zabuza is equal to Naruto of now tricking an Akatsuki member like Kakuzu. And just because he has experience equal to a kage doesn't mean he knows how to deal with such an unpredictable ninja like Naruto, what Naruto is famously known for. Time and time again he's surprised such great ninjas like Orochimaru, Sarutobi, Tsunada, and kakashi by his feats. It's naruto's unpredictability that allows him to compete with the elite and competent ninjas in the Narutoverse.

It seems you don’t get the point, as I said to Sazelyt, the point here is not merely about experience, is about Kakuuzu Experince plus the fact that he was tricked by the generic "who is the real One trick". And if you take Kakuuzu Experience + The Trick Naruto used, and compared it to Zabuza Experience + the trick he used, the difference are very huge.

Reason why the one he made to Zabuza, you don’t see, even the "haters", saying this was Zabuza becoming Dumb, as everyone’s agree it was a brilliant plan from Naruto.


BTW, I think it would be healthy If we use a thread to specifically talk about Naruto's Developmen and his victory against Kakuuzu, maybe the thread Created by Shurikenjay, because we have already 2 Episodes thread debating this, and it seems this is not going to stop.

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by Rurik

Well, You know how I see it, I will always see as Kakuuzu been dumb for the sake of the plot.

The discussion we are having has become very similar to the discussion between Shindou and Touya at the end of HnG. No flexibility, none at all, in both sides's opinions.

Anyway, they haven't stopped playing, so we will continue debating...

[Sinaura]

Originally Posted by Rurik

It seems you don’t get the point, as I said to Sazelyt, the point here is not merely about experience, is about Kakuuzu Experince plus the fact that he was tricked by the generic "who is the real One trick". And if you take Kakuuzu Experience + The Trick Naruto used, and compared it to Zabuza Experience + the trick he used, the difference are very huge.

Reason why the one he made to Zabuza, you don’t see, even the "haters", saying this was Zabuza becoming Dumb, as everyone’s agree it was a brilliant plan from Naruto.

There should be another thread, but the differences aren't that big at all if you consider that the Naruto clone Kakuzu was focusing on already had the uber rasengan jutus in his hands. I can understand if he was tricked by a regular, non-special clone, but this clone had a real jutus that could do real damage to him, why wouldn't he focus on that Naruto? The trick against Zabuza seems more clever, but the trick against Kakuzu was also just as clever; risking an insane amount of chakra by making one of his clones have the Rasengan. That fake Naruto was the imminent threat, so by all means Kakuzu's experience told him to get rid of the threat as fast as he could.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Sazelyt

Why would it be stupid? The hearts are something he control, right? In that case, if he cannot even control his back, how will separating the hearts that he cannot even control effectively help him?

Since when Kakuzu couldn't control his hearts effectively? He was able to control his hand underground to take off Shika's knife, he used different attacks at Kakashi and Shika who were in opposite direction and he could control 3 heart at the same time to make them coming back at his corpse whereas he was lying down on the ground.
And anyway he didn't even need to control them effectively for this one, he just had to fire where he wasn't attacking. Did you already forget the sheer size of his attacks?
I mean really you have to be crazy to think this was the best possible strategy whereas it was a complete and total failure. And note that I didn't want to see Kakuzu using a perfect strategy so he would win since I wanted Naruto to kick his sorry ass.
But I wanted something more impressive and credible and I don't feel that what Kishimoto imagined is that good. Kakuzu had the ability to attack from several angles at the same time, he should have done so and lose despite that.

You know, Kakuzu might be stupid in other ways we currently don't know, but I don't think it is at the level to try something risky against the group facing him, assuming that there would be none around to back them up. If he had acted against them and create and opening, and if there is another group around to attack and kill him, wouldn't you agree with me, that you would consider him again stupid?

I'm not even sure I understand what you are trying to say.
But no I wouldn't since Kakuzu using all his abilities and still getting his ass kicked by Naruto was what I wanted to see.

Sorry, but I haven't seen any exception to that rule (even though I haven't made that rule).

Yeah right and inversely anyone who think your way must be a Naruto fanboy I guess.
Since I complained about Sasori's fight I suppose I'm also a Sakura/Chiyo hater, since I complained about some things from both Naruto and Sasuke during their fight I must hate both of them and actually since I'm pretty sure I complained against every single characters of this show at least once over the years I must hate them all yet be a tard for their opponents even if I hate them too of course.

You are critizing what Naruto achieved; considering either what Naruto had done as stupidly simple, and what Kakuzu had done as stupidly, well, just stupid.

I'm critizing the way Kishimoto handled the end of the fight.

But, if you think of just *one* simple detail, which is, for me, one of the likely scenarios, that Naruto has gained an *incredible speed boost* at the last moment, which is beyond Kakuzu's calculations and in a way completely shattering Kakuzu's expectations, doesn't that increase the importance of Naruto's attack and decrease the mistake on Kakuzu's side?

And you think it's likely that Naruto gained an incredible speed boost between the chapter 341 and 342 because.... ?
Naruto was very fast, we knew his use of Kage Bunshin had improved but the chapter 341 really showed how amazingly good he became with them which is why he almost killed Kakuzu the first time. Kakuzu dying there would have been fine with me btw, Naruto's skills are obviously incredible now.
But the reason he landed the last blow wasn't some uber imaginary speed boost, it was a simple trick.

My point is pretty simple actually : Naruto beating Kakuzu with incredible skills (like his first charge) would be great and Naruto beating Kakuzu with a smart trick would be great too.
In the other hand Naruto beating Kakuzu with the simplest trick there is just shows lack of imagination from Kishimoto.

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by Sinaura

There should be another thread, but the differences aren't that big at all if you consider that the Naruto clone Kakuzu was focusing on already had the uber rasengan jutus in his hands. I can understand if he was tricked by a regular, non-special clone, but this clone had a real jutus that could do real damage to him, why wouldn't he focus on that Naruto?

Why would he just focus on that Naruto and neglect the clones which can also do damage? not to mention, the Shinoby actually sensing another big amount of Chakra coming from another direction.

I think compared to Zabuza case the difference is Big, Considering that even if the clone had the Jutsu, Naruto was playing around with clones, so Kakuuzu neglected the possibility of a Clone bait (when Surprise surprise, just seconds before, Naruto had done something similar),

For a suppossed Experienced Shibnoby , specifically what we could say is the most experience shinoby shown so far in the series, it just fall for a category of the writer mishandling the story.

In the case of Zabuza, Naruto not only used the clones to distract Zabuza whereas he made the Henge , but he even was quick enough to Use this Henge form to get Himself inside the bag, pass himself with the clone to Sasuke and then in mid air throw the Kunai, everything for the purpose to Free Kakashi the only one that could really defeat Zabuza, this kind of Tactic, is as good as the one made By Shikamaru.

The trick against Zabuza seems more clever, but the trick against Kakuzu was also just as clever; risking an insane amount of chakra by making one of his clones have the Rasengan. That fake Naruto was the imminent threat, so by all means Kakuzu's experience told him to get rid of the threat as fast as he could.

My experience Would had told me get rid of the threat and not loose sight and all of the other clones, I for once don’t see anymore the cleverness of this tactics, because it was the same tactic used Against Neeji, “I fool oyu with who was the real me”

[gibits]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Oh come on!
You don't think it was a stupid move for Kakuzu to let all his hearts at the same place whereas he has the abilities to split them, to let the clone unchecked whereas he could have dispatched the said hearts to AOE them,

Hunter would you explain to me how this really fits into you're argument? I whole heartily agree that Naruto should've won last chapter instead of more talk, so i'm not poking holes here. But from what we have seen, Kakuzu's ghosts do alot of AoE high lvl jutsus to nuke his opponents. If couldn't he nuke them from his shoulders as well?

[Hunter]

Sorry I'm not sure what you're asking me.
Kakuzu's ghosts could AOE from his shoulders or from his back and probably anywhere on his body or completely detached from him.
What I'm saying is that Kakuzu continuing to use his high lvl AOE attack from anywhere you want would have made Naruto looks even better once he defeated him.

Does that answer your question?