Episode 154 Discussion Thread

[Mr Hat and Clogs]

He'd still be able to give it one hell of a shot though. He is supposedly a lot more powerful then he was then to.

[WONDERMIKE]

ah people shouldn't think in powerlevels/classes.. it's more about balance and abilities with the exception when two opponents with equal fighting styles fight each other. for example: it doesn't matter how strong you are when you try to face senbonzakura with your zabimaru bankai on the other hand i think that such a bankai could be useful against guys like yammy, who basically seems to fight in the same way, so its just about brute strength and overpowering.. but there is also a chance for rukia to win against a yammy-like opponent, she can make use of strong kidou spells as long as she is faster than him

[Mr Hat and Clogs]

So true, match ups really are important. Brute force vs control vs speed etc.

[Magnus N]

Ofc matchups are important, just wanted to point out that when Ishida fought Mayuri he got a huge boost in power from that artifact . his overall strength is probably higher now, but the peak in strength he got there hes far away from atm

[lequory]

Originally Posted by Magnus N

Ofc matchups are important, just wanted to point out that when Ishida fought Mayuri he got a huge boost in power from that artifact . his overall strength is probably higher now, but the peak in strength he got there hes far away from atm

wow...pay attention to whats been said ppl. I've said this before a few weeks back that when Ishidas pop told him he would be able to restore his Quincy powers that it would be restored back to the point at which he lost them. Hence he came back with his powers at the point where he massacred Mayuri.

[Aadi]

Originally Posted by Magnus N

Only way Ishida won his fight against Mayuri in SS arc was because of his Quincyartifact that gave him a huge boost in power, he doesnt have that anymore so if he where to go up against him again he would surley loose imo.

The only way Ichigo won any of his fights was with his Zanpakto...so the point that he used a weapon to defeat someone is kind of off the wall...they're all using weapons. You need to remember, it's not the weapon that's powerful, it's the person holding the weapon (of course there are examples of strong weapons that don't require skill, but that's not what we're talking about here). So, he beat a captain, he beat a bounto, and now he's going to beat an Espada...that is perfectly fine and logical. He's strong, he's got more control than Ichigo, and he's an impressive character (even though I was really ticked off at him when he agreed to abandon his friends just to get his power back).

Originally Posted by WONDERMIKE

ah people shouldn't think in powerlevels/classes.. it's more about balance and abilities with the exception when two opponents with equal fighting styles fight each other. for example: it doesn't matter how strong you are when you try to face senbonzakura with your zabimaru bankai on the other hand i think that such a bankai could be useful against guys like yammy, who basically seems to fight in the same way, so its just about brute strength and overpowering.. but there is also a chance for rukia to win against a yammy-like opponent, she can make use of strong kidou spells as long as she is faster than him

Right, match-ups are key...like the first fight with Chad and Ishida...they were mismatched, so they switched and won...couldn't agree more here...however, my comment concerning power levels addressed the inconsistancy of them in bleach, not really the importance of them in matching up.

Originally Posted by Magnus N

Ofc matchups are important, just wanted to point out that when Ishida fought Mayuri he got a huge boost in power from that artifact . his overall strength is probably higher now, but the peak in strength he got there hes far away from atm

Again, the artifact channeled the huge amount of spirit particles that he was able pull from the environment...he was the key ingrediant, the artifact wouldn't have done it on it's own, or if chad or Oriheme had been wearing it. Now, he has a stronger, more stable artifact that would easily channel as much power without risking to the user. He would definitely still kick butt against certain captains, the last bounto, and certain Espada's.

Originally Posted by lequory

wow...pay attention to whats been said ppl. I've said this before a few weeks back that when Ishidas pop told him he would be able to restore his Quincy powers that it would be restored back to the point at which he lost them. Hence he came back with his powers at the point where he massacred Mayuri.

Agreed...fully restored, although the question of whether or not his training was complete is still up for debate...but he looks damn good, and he's smart...Ichigo uses brute, raw power; Ishida uses his mind and strategizes...both are fun to watch and are both growing in power...he'll definitely beat this chick.

[kirose]

I think the point being raised here is that Ishida wouldn't have been able to defeat Mayuri without that SPECIFIC weapon. By busting the Bow it created a vortex that sucked in all SP around it, and tranfered it to him. It is true that a quincy normaly uses Sp for everything, however by breaking that weapon he temorarily increased his intake by about 100 fold (in my est ), and his the strength of his arrows therefore shot off the charts, not becouse of him, but becouse the weapon started drawing in power.
After a while the effect of breaking the bow weared off, his powers would have returned as they were BEFORE bow breaking if the concequence of breaking the bow wasn't the locking of quincy powers. Think about it, if you put a supercharger on you car, the performance would go up, if you took it off, the performance goes back down, it doesn't stay at the same level. Sure, Ishida might have gained a little better control of SP after the experience of controling so much, but that still puts him no where near the level he was at when he defeated Mayuri.

Originally Posted by lequory

wow...pay attention to whats been said ppl. I've said this before a few weeks back that when Ishidas pop told him he would be able to restore his Quincy powers that it would be restored back to the point at which he lost them. Hence he came back with his powers at the point where he massacred Mayuri.

HIS power was restored, what he had when he fought Mayuri, not what he had after he broke the bow. That power was temporary. see above.

The Bounto's were filler, and can't really be concidered cannon. Ishida Beat a captain with skill, and by breaking his bow, and is now facing an espada level character.

All this said, I wouldn't doubt Ishida either, he is clever enough to come out with a V, as long as he doesn't face anyone too high in the pecking order.

[lequory]

smh @ above reply to mines. Its said in the anime by his father that it'd would specifically be restored at the point in which he lost them. How more plain and cut can that be. He lost his powers after breaking the artifact. Meaning he regained his powers at that point. We all take things a little to far sometimes, and it causes good debates, but this is one debate that should not be happening because it was specifically stated already where his powers would be at once regained.

[Aadi]

Originally Posted by kirose

The Bounto's were filler, and can't really be concidered cannon. Ishida Beat a captain with skill, and by breaking his bow, and is now facing an espada level character.

Cannon? Are you serious? Is the subject of this thread Manga or Anime...this is a discussion about the Anime, if you want to talk "cannon", go to your precious Manga threads...Ishida took out a bounto, that's it...it's not something that can just be dimissed in a conversation about the Anime...and I'm tired of hearing it...if you think the Manga is superior, then why are you here? Go discuss it with your little Manga friends, and we'll stick to the Anime "Cannon" where the bounto arc and many other things happened...like it, leave it or learn how to discern between them and talk with proper respect around here.

Originally Posted by lequory

smh @ above reply to mines. Its said in the anime by his father that it'd would specifically be restored at the point in which he lost them. How more plain and cut can that be. He lost his powers after breaking the artifact. Meaning he regained his powers at that point. We all take things a little to far sometimes, and it causes good debates, but this is one debate that should not be happening because it was specifically stated already where his powers would be at once regained.

Yes...powers restored back to before...not really the point, but you are correct...it's indisputable...good job calling that one...

The question being brought up is whether or not Ishida is captain level...and everyone's insisting that the only reason he stood toe-to-toe with a captain and won was because of his awesome little bracelet...then he stood toe-to-toe with the bounto and won because of his crappy little bracelet? Then he stood toe-to-toe with an Arrancar and beat it because of his awesome new bracelet...my ONLY point is, it's not the weapon, it's the person using the weapon...the only person that could still be a captain without their weapon (zanpakto) is Kenpatchi...he doesn't need a weapon.

You can't give all the credit too the weapon...the real criteria comes down to this, can that weapon in anyone else's hand, achieve the same results...the answer is obviously no...The Quincy weapons focus spirit energy, but it's not the weapon that is drawing the spirit particles, it's Ishida...

No-one is saying that Ishida can take on any Espada, but he can hold his own from at about 6 to 10...which is about where most of the captains stand.

[Magnus N]

Originally Posted by kirose

I think the point being raised here is that Ishida wouldn't have been able to defeat Mayuri without that SPECIFIC weapon. By busting the Bow it created a vortex that sucked in all SP around it, and tranfered it to him. It is true that a quincy normaly uses Sp for everything, however by breaking that weapon he temorarily increased his intake by about 100 fold (in my est ), and his the strength of his arrows therefore shot off the charts, not becouse of him, but becouse the weapon started drawing in power.
After a while the effect of breaking the bow weared off, his powers would have returned as they were BEFORE bow breaking if the concequence of breaking the bow wasn't the locking of quincy powers. Think about it, if you put a supercharger on you car, the performance would go up, if you took it off, the performance goes back down, it doesn't stay at the same level. Sure, Ishida might have gained a little better control of SP after the experience of controling so much, but that still puts him no where near the level he was at when he defeated Mayuri.




HIS power was restored, what he had when he fought Mayuri, not what he had after he broke the bow. That power was temporary. see above.

Finally someone who understands

[Aadi]

Originally Posted by Magnus N

Finally someone who understands

You guys just don't get it...if it were the artifact, it would have drawn the soul particles immediately upon releasing the limiter. By breaking the limiter, it simply allowed more spirit energy to flow through it...Ishida still had to gather and focus that energy into the artifact. Don't think we don't understand what you are saying, you just have to consider all the information presented...all of Ishida's training was directed towards learning how to gather, focus and control the flow of spirit energy...it wasn't based on "here's an artifact, it'll do the work for you and provide you with great power, speed, agility and a strong mental faculty".

[Magnus N]

Originally Posted by Aadi

You guys just don't get it...if it were the artifact, it would have drawn the soul particles immediately upon releasing the limiter. By breaking the limiter, it simply allowed more spirit energy to flow through it...Ishida still had to gather and focus that energy into the artifact. Don't think we don't understand what you are saying, you just have to consider all the information presented...all of Ishida's training was directed towards learning how to gather, focus and control the flow of spirit energy...it wasn't based on "here's an artifact, it'll do the work for you and provide you with great power, speed, agility and a strong mental faculty".

I am considering all the information and I see it this way

He is a strong fighter, the only thing the artifact did was giving him a huge boost inSpirit energy, he is good enough to work with that amount for a brief period before he gets exhausted, but thats not what ive been trying to say in my last posts.

I dont think he cant harnest (dont know if thats the correct word) that much SP by himself. That artifact made him able to suck in enough SP to rival pretty much anyone in the show, thats what I wanted to say and I doubt he is close to to that level of strength atm even with his new bow.

[Aadi]

Originally Posted by Magnus N

I am considering all the information and I see it this way

He is a strong fighter, the only thing the artifact did was giving him a huge boost inSpirit energy, he is good enough to work with that amount for a brief period before he gets exhausted, but thats not what ive been trying to say in my last posts.

I dont think he cant harnest (dont know if thats the correct word) that much SP by himself. That artifact made him able to suck in enough SP to rival pretty much anyone in the show, thats what I wanted to say and I doubt he is close to to that level of strength atm even with his new bow.

I think that we're making similar points in that the tool "allowed him" to harness that much power, but he still had use his powers to do that (as in, it wouldn't have done it on it's own...any more than a wrench could fix a car on it's own). He seems pretty strong atm, being able to shoot thousands of arrows and beating that arrancar pretty decisively, plus he's holding his own against pillar chick...so we'll have to see.

[kirose]

Originally Posted by Aadi

Cannon? Are you serious? Is the subject of this thread Manga or Anime...this is a discussion about the Anime, if you want to talk "cannon", go to your precious Manga threads...Ishida took out a bounto, that's it...it's not something that can just be dimissed in a conversation about the Anime...and I'm tired of hearing it...if you think the Manga is superior, then why are you here? Go discuss it with your little Manga friends, and we'll stick to the Anime "Cannon" where the bounto arc and many other things happened...like it, leave it or learn how to discern between them and talk with proper respect around here.



Yes...powers restored back to before...not really the point, but you are correct...it's indisputable...good job calling that one...

The question being brought up is whether or not Ishida is captain level...and everyone's insisting that the only reason he stood toe-to-toe with a captain and won was because of his awesome little bracelet...then he stood toe-to-toe with the bounto and won because of his crappy little bracelet? Then he stood toe-to-toe with an Arrancar and beat it because of his awesome new bracelet...my ONLY point is, it's not the weapon, it's the person using the weapon...the only person that could still be a captain without their weapon (zanpakto) is Kenpatchi...he doesn't need a weapon.

You can't give all the credit too the weapon...the real criteria comes down to this, can that weapon in anyone else's hand, achieve the same results...the answer is obviously no...The Quincy weapons focus spirit energy, but it's not the weapon that is drawing the spirit particles, it's Ishida...

No-one is saying that Ishida can take on any Espada, but he can hold his own from at about 6 to 10...which is about where most of the captains stand.

First of all I enjoy the manga and the anime and will post in both forums if I so wish.
Secoundly, the reason I said it wasn't cannon was becouse you are trying to justify something that may happen in the anime/manga, With something that didn't happen in the manga. You seem to disregard the fact that the anime is an interpretation of the story, not the creative drive, that would be Tite Kubo, the Mangeka.

I am not the one that needs to learn respect. I respect the manga, I respect the anime, and I respect the creative licence of the anime team. However I also see the limits on the anime's creativity: did you notice no character received a true power up in the Bounto arc? I am not trying to grind an axe, I mearly pointed that out.

Back on topic I still think that Ishida returned to how he was pre bow breakage.
1. His bow doesn't have the SP content that it did at Mayuri fight (judging by size).
2. His arrows don't have the power they had back in Mayui Fight.
3. The thing on his back is no longer pulling in SP

I can agree, and see that after the experience of using so much SP at one time he could have gotten better control.However that doesn't mean he can use the same amount of SP at one time as he could then, becouse he is unaided in "sucking" it in as he was then. This isn't a normal use of a weapon, he used a special property of a specific weapon to give him a temporary boost in SP.

Returning to my car analogy, a supercharger couldn't work on it's own, only when on a car. The bow probably couldn't draw in power if not attached to a quincy. That however doesn't mean that the car or Quincy will keep the power once the supercharger/bow is removed.

Ishida's dad told him his power was returned. HIS power, the power to draw in SP from around him. For reasons stated above I beleive that HIS power doesn't include that granted by breaking the bow.

[lequory]

Originally Posted by kirose

Ishida's dad told him his power was returned. HIS power, the power to draw in SP from around him. For reasons stated above I beleive that HIS power doesn't include that granted by breaking the bow.

Go back to the episode b4 his power was restored. When we 1st see his dad he tells him that it would be returned to its previous state at which he lost them. Yes this debate is still going on ppl and it seems to be at a stalemate but this will be the last round. When you check that out Kirose, and whoever else disagrees, please do not hesitate to post back a reply.

[Aadi]

Originally Posted by kirose

First of all I enjoy the manga and the anime and will post in both forums if I so wish.
Secoundly, the reason I said it wasn't cannon was becouse you are trying to justify something that may happen in the anime/manga, With something that didn't happen in the manga. You seem to disregard the fact that the anime is an interpretation of the story, not the creative drive, that would be Tite Kubo, the Mangeka.

I am not the one that needs to learn respect. I respect the manga, I respect the anime, and I respect the creative licence of the anime team. However I also see the limits on the anime's creativity: did you notice no character received a true power up in the Bounto arc? I am not trying to grind an axe, I mearly pointed that out.

Touchy, touchy...post where-ever you want, I'm just saying that this is an Anime thread and nobody gives a crap if you think the Manga is "Cannon"...especially when you simply dismiss what is occurring in the Anime as "Filler" and irrelevent to the story...it is the story to us, and that is where the lack of respect is coming in. Nobody's going into the Manga threads dis'n it are they? I fully respect the Manga and appreciate the base story that it provides...however, I watch the Anime, and that is the only storyline that matters here, in this "Anime Only" thread.

btw, you don't have to feel threatened or insecure just because people are enjoying the Anime and don't even regard the Manga...enjoy what you want, and quit trying to shove it down everyone's throat that it's the almighty "cannon"...there's nothing to prove here...just let us enjoy the Anime and stop bombarding the thread with "holier than thou" Manga redorick...we don't care about filler, we're simply enjoying the Anime.

Originally Posted by kirose

Back on topic I still think that Ishida returned to how he was pre bow breakage.
1. His bow doesn't have the SP content that it did at Mayuri fight (judging by size).
2. His arrows don't have the power they had back in Mayui Fight.
3. The thing on his back is no longer pulling in SP

I can agree, and see that after the experience of using so much SP at one time he could have gotten better control.However that doesn't mean he can use the same amount of SP at one time as he could then, becouse he is unaided in "sucking" it in as he was then. This isn't a normal use of a weapon, he used a special property of a specific weapon to give him a temporary boost in SP.

Returning to my car analogy, a supercharger couldn't work on it's own, only when on a car. The bow probably couldn't draw in power if not attached to a quincy. That however doesn't mean that the car or Quincy will keep the power once the supercharger/bow is removed.

Ishida's dad told him his power was returned. HIS power, the power to draw in SP from around him. For reasons stated above I beleive that HIS power doesn't include that granted by breaking the bow.

I admit the the "super-charger" analogy is solid, however, it doesn't quite fit here. It hardly takes any skill to handle a vehicle with or without a charger on it. Now if you want a car analogy...use the toolset...you can give two people a toolset, one a mechanic, the other a hairstylist, they'll definitely have different results. That's really my only point here...the artifact is a tool, and Ishida is the Mechanic...the tool is pretty much useless without the mechanic...but it's the skill of the mechanic that brings out the value of the tool...as it is with these artifacts.

We've yet to see Ishida try to pull a higher level of power out of this Artifact. This artifact is obviously a more advanced tool than the one Ishida started with. It's the one from around his grandfather's neck...the beginner artifact that Ishida had, the one that was "so powerful" was simply a training tool...his father said it himself, that Ishida was an amateur, which insinuated that he would have an amateur's tool...once he took the training wheels off (the limiter...just in case you couldn't follow that), it broke, and broke him in the process. There is no doubt that this new artifact is exponentially more powerful...we've already seen a glimpse of it...yeah, no back blah, blah, no big arrow, blah, blah...you can't judge it's power by such infintile things.

[Aadi]

Originally Posted by lequory

Go back to the episode b4 his power was restored. When we 1st see his dad he tells him that it would be returned to its previous state at which he lost them. Yes this debate is still going on ppl and it seems to be at a stalemate but this will be the last round. When you check that out Kirose, and whoever else disagrees, please do not hesitate to post back a reply.

Ah, stalemate, yes...circular conversations where one side isn't stopping to consider what is being said usually end up that way...some people just like to argue, regardless of how much supporting information you present...Anyway, it's not like there are any other discussions going on...might as well make the best of this one...I'm still angry with Ishida for ditching his friends anyway...it's not like I'm defending my favorite character, I"m just presenting base information...

[Galixdragoon]

This episode had alot of drama between Rukia and Kaien but..overall it was horrible.

[hideki motosuwa]

yes galixdragood its just recalling back from the past. what i want is the fight between ichigo and izen that will be sooooooooo good lol hehehehe