2011-09-05, 12:19 | Link #24182 |
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Tea parties are definitely not included in the messages and the forgeries.
As to what EP7 truly is in the real world, it's hard to tell. But following the logic so far, it must be some kind of fictional story.
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2011-09-05, 12:38 | Link #24184 |
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If the Tea Parties are not included in the messages in bottles or forgeries, then what they really are? Characters like Bernkastel, Lambadelta, Ange from the future, Lion appear in them. I still find odd how a fictional character as Lion find Ange (which is real) in a story that was never written by anyone in the real world.
Unless that Ange is also fictional (from Tea Party EP 7), but then had to explain who wrote the Tea Party, and would have to be someone who knows from Ange the future. |
2011-09-05, 13:48 | Link #24185 | |
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2011-09-05, 14:22 | Link #24186 | |||
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But episode 4 also tells us that "Beatrice" from Maria's diary has the same handwriting as "Ushinomiya Maria". So. Who wrote the bottle-fictions? Easiest answer: Battler did. Episode 4 1998 was written fiction, and Beatrice's handwriting in Maria's diary was made up by Touya. Why? To make it look like Beatrice was the culprit. And the only person who could reject such a fiction would be Ange herself, who had gone missing. It's just wild speculation, but... thoughts? Quote:
Fantasy/Meta angle: Lion is a real person from another Kakera. Take your pick. Although most of the time discussion on this board is in the context of the mystery/author angle. Quote:
But, well, here's some of my opinions: The Ange that met Lion is a metaphorical representation in some way, not the "real" Ange. The only possible connection that the "real" Ange might have with Lion is that maybe she read about him somewhere (but whether he was even fictionalized through actual writing at all is debatable). So what we see of their interactions could just be metaphorical for what's going on in Touya's head or Ange's head. Or it could just be an arbitrary "what if" not founded on any "real" person's viewpoint (in other words, it's just something Ryuukishi showed us). The episode 7 Tea Party could have been written by anyone, because by episode 7 there's enough knowledge available to the public to do so; or it may have been written by no one, and was just a frightening idea Ange/Touya thought about on their own. In any case, I think the episode 7 Tea Party wasn't a fictional forgery per se, but an actual theory developed as evidence surfaced in the real world. |
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2011-09-05, 15:06 | Link #24188 |
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The way I see it, episode 7 could be theoretically interpreted as a random witch hunter visiting Yasu on her death bed to go "I understand it all" until she dies, then goes up to Toya's house to stop the forgeries since he feels they are disrespectful to the dead and that they would keep digging despite the dead's wishes, but just as about as he was going to explain why they shouldn't make forgeries anymore Hachijo's cat jumped on his face and made him hit his head really hard.
...Okay that makes absolutely no sense. I think episode 7 is just one of those "don't think too much about it, you'll get a headache" things. |
2011-09-05, 15:07 | Link #24189 |
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I agree that the meta-narratives of Tea Parties are not in fiction. Other meta-narratives are also not in fiction as in EP 6 Ange and Featherine, Bernkastel and Angie on the rooftop, Ange and Lion in the theater and so on.
With that in mind I list the three types of narratives in Umineko. 1 - Fictions written by Yasu/Beatrice or Toya/Hachijo 2 - Events in the real world outside Rokkenjima, as the stories of Ange in 1998. 3 - And these meta-narratives that are not in fiction, as mentioned above. And the strange thing is that these meta-narratives (type 3) using characters who were apparently created in fiction (as Lambdadelta and Bernkastel) and some of the real world (as Ange). Bernkastel and Ange meeting on the rooftop is emblematic. It may Angie's delusion, but a delusion of a character (Bernkastel) that her brother created in fiction and she has not even read. There are two possibilities. All these meta-narratives that are not in the fictions, are inventions of the R07 to help explain the mystery or exist in a "real" meta-world In both cases means that the fictions only can not explain the mystery of Rokkenjima Prime. We readers need something besides the fiction (messages on bottles or forgeries in Umineko) to explain the mystery. And this is the meta-narrative. This may be deliberate or not. This causes me a headache. |
2011-09-05, 15:30 | Link #24190 | |
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1) In the first place it was said that the police found the first bottle very soon after the incident. 2) the writing style is the same found in Maria's diary AND the letters whom are sure to have been sent before the incident. Maria isn't supposed to have met Battler in years. Additionally Ange was given the diary directly from the police. No one except Beatrice is supposed to have been in possession of enough money to spare for those bank accounts. 3) It was said that investigations were made as to check if the handwriting was that of Maria and it was confirmed it wasn't. It isn't reasonable to think they didn't check the handwriting of all the rest of the family while they were at it. And more importantly Ange could have recognized her brother's handwriting. This could be explained with Tohya having suffered brain damage therefore becoming a different person, except read point 2.
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2011-09-05, 16:33 | Link #24191 |
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Yo, everyone. I know I'm late to the discussion, but I still feel the need to respond as I've recently acquired the 07th Expansion fever again. Before I jump into any debate and such, I want to ask a question (pointed at anyone who will answer.)
How, exactly, should one treat the meta-world? If certain games (the Rokkenjima gameboards in episodes 3-6) are in fact, fiction within fiction, what becomes of the already symbolic fiction that is the meta-world? Are we supposed to merely assume that it's there because it's there? That's it's the collection of all the minds or thoughts surrounding the games and everything is just symbolic? Or do we just accept that there IS a magical meta-world and then there's a real world, in which everything actually happens. I apologize if my post made little sense. I just really have trouble understanding the meta-world as of yet (I've yet to read the second half of episode 8, so I may just be stupid and not know that the entire meta-world is explained in that second half.) Thank you to anyone who explains this. |
2011-09-05, 16:35 | Link #24192 | |
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2011-09-05, 16:39 | Link #24193 | |
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Umineko doesn't give a clear answer. My interpreation is that tea party, magic scenes and meta characters are creations of Toya's mind or personifications of rules and ideas (Ryukishi said Dlanor is merely the personification of the Knox decalogue) but that's just me. There's who think different. |
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2011-09-05, 16:42 | Link #24194 | |
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I think there is no definitive answer. I personally think that R07 has failed in this. |
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2011-09-05, 16:44 | Link #24195 | |
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2011-09-05, 16:45 | Link #24196 | |
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2011-09-05, 16:48 | Link #24197 |
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The problem is that Ryuukishi jumps from a symbolic intepretation to another without notice. See fot example the Chiester: they are guns, they are ceramic bunnies, they are computers...
There doesn't seem to be any logic connection between the three things, they just happen to be associated to all of them. This "jumping around" behaviour can be also noted in his narration, when the narrator is at one time Battler, and then a 3rd party person, and then Jessica... and so on. All of this in a seamless manner, without any notice. I think the metaworld could be even a dozen of different things...
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2011-09-05, 16:48 | Link #24198 |
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Thank you for your answers, and while it may be lame how Ryukishi kinda left it dangling...
I'd much rather he left that up to interpretation than leave what actually happened on Rokkenjima up to interpretation (for a portion of what actually happened.) Jan-Poo: Maria always armed her toy rabbits with toy guns and bought them all mini-barbie computers. That is totally how it works. Any other explanation would just be silly. |
2011-09-05, 16:51 | Link #24199 | ||
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As we learned in EP8 Ange was confronted by many people, even her classmates, with the theory that her parents were the murderers. The voice which pushed Ange towards refusing to live in peace with Eva and made her seek out the truth around the Rokkenjima incident was personified as Bernkastel, but basically it's quite probable that it was the part of mass media and public opinion that was interested in just dragging the cruel truth of those 2 days out into sunlight. Add to that the fact with what Ange is greeted in the theater in the EP7 Tea Party: ???: あの日に何があったかって?教えてなんてあげないわ。ヘソでも噛んで死んじゃえばぁ?!('W hat happened on that day', eh? I will never tell you even a bit. How about eating your guts out and dying?!) Lion: ・・・この声は・・・?(...that voice...?) Ange: あのババアよ。絵羽叔母さんの声だわ。(It's that hag. It's aunt Eva's voice.) I think it's quite reasonable to assume that this is what happened on those two days in 1986 from Eva's perspective...that it's actually the same truth that is in Eva's diary. It's just presented through someone who is ot interested in a sensible, emotional ending...just in drawing the most cruel solution out of those events. This has always been presented through Bernkastel, but would also be fitting for many witch hunters...because let's admit it, many of us here are very much the same. So I'd assume that this is just a metaphorical scene that leads up to the metaphorical meeting between young Ange and BATTLER in the meta-chapel. She is devastated after people around her have confronted her with the "Rudolph/Kyrie culprit theory" and so she reverts back to a little girl who wants nothing more than her big brother to comfort her. Quote:
So like I said before, unless anybody wants to include random police conspiracy X into the already pretty confusing mix, I think it's pretty safe to ditch the "message bottles were written post-incident" theory. |
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2011-09-05, 17:07 | Link #24200 | |||||
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I've no idea how Yasu guessed the weather. Maybe that's a typical weather for that place so more than a guess it was a 'there's more tahn 50% chances for this weather so I'll bet on it'. Maybe in the original tale the weather was mentioned only once or twice. and in such a way she could remove the pages mentioning the weather with others that would talk of another kindof weather should a typhon not happen. Quote:
So in his mind it was logic to assume that - Beatrice was Maria's friend - Maria played with Ange - Ange might have some memento of Maria and if her disappearance was due to the fact she was chasing the truth, she would use the memento Maria left her to connect the messages to Beatrice. Quote:
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To me Bern is Toya's creation so the fact she's here to me is a reference that again what we're seeing is something through Toya's eyes. |
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