[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 5 End of the golden witch

[Dark0303]

Originally Posted by Dr. Akagi

True that. Thanks for saving me time typing.

That's why I can understand Bern trying to frame someone (whether it's Natushi or Krauss) at the last moment out of desperation to win (to prove her intellectual superiority), but that by itself isn't proof enough she is an evil bitch bent on framing innocent people for her entertainment. That is oversimplifying things imho.

And that was basically my point all along. Bern/Erika may be accused of a certain intellectual laziness or of lack of integrity, but at this point in the story it is unfair to judge them as acting out of an outright malice.

Did you close your eyes to the first tea party?
So it isn't malice that made Bern want to enjoy an execution of Beato's friends and furniture every day? And it wasn't malice to want to execute the Siesta's either who oh yes let me remind you. HELPED HER DURING EPISODE 5?
Heck I'll even screenshot those scenes if you want me to

[Smeckledorf]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

It can be inferred by the simple fact everyone witnessed the red truth about Natsuhi not being the culprit. You said it yourself the red is not questionable. It doesn't matter if in that trial it couldn't be accepted for some internal rule. The red is the truth there's no reason to question it.

Another thing that is quite clear is the fact that Bern knows that Kinzo is dead.

I present this fact: Lambda says in front of Bern and Battler that: "Kinzo is already dead"

There is absolutely no possible way for Bern to doubt that. However Erika makes a theory that involves Kinzo being still alive, and Bern allows her to use that explanation.

How do you explain that?
Remember, Erika uses Kinzo as a way to explain how the bodies disappeared, so Bern knows well that this theory is false and therefore she knows she hasn't really found an explanation for this mystery.



Well can you? Even with your theory Bernkastel and Erika still didn't find the right solution. If your assumption is that Lambda wouldn't give them the victory unless they find the true culprit, then you are going to have a problem making sense out of it.

Bern and Erika didn't find the truth, but Lambda accepted their victory anyway <- this is a fact



This is not what Bern believes as I have clearly demonstrated.

Lambda does not want the game to end but Bern is forcing it to end, what happens when an unmovable force meets an unstoppable object? One will always have to give in.
However, thanks for bringing up the verdict. Remember how it was already done then Battler came back spouting his moonspeak then Lambda gave him a second chance that he was technically not entitled to. I represent that as proof that Lambdadelta does not want this game to end and you pretty much sum up the case for Erika/Bern are immoral and competitive, they will strive to win at any cost.

Originally Posted by Dark0303

Did you close your eyes to the first tea party?
So it isn't malice that made Bern want to enjoy an execution of Beato's friends and furniture every day? And it wasn't malice to want to execute the Siesta's either who oh yes let me remind you. HELPED HER DURING EPISODE 5?

Bern has no real reason to hate Beatrice. Bern is heartless and inconsiderate but I am not sure she is doing anything out of hate. She is however heartless.

[Dark0303]

She went terribly out of her way to completely exterminate Beato's magic compendium for it to be just her acting heartless though. Technically it's enough to prove that she didn't have anything to do with the murders. What she is doing in that Tea Party is the equivalent of what Kasumi did with Maria's grimoire

[Jan-Poo]

Lambda does not want the game to end but Bern is forcing it to end, what happens when an unmovable force meets an unstoppable object? One will always have to give in.

Are you really sure? The only thing that Lambda had to do was repeating in red that Natsuhi isn't the culprit.

The rules limiting the red only apply to humans not to witches.

Plus it is a fact that Erika and Bern weren't able to solve the mystery of the letter and the knock, that alone according to the rules that have been set in Ep4 wouldn't allow Bern to win. And yet Lambda let them win.

[Smeckledorf]

You are forgetting about the rules of the court, Jan, you have to have evidence on the gameboard to use red in it. Lambda did not show evidence of Natsuhi's innocence during the game so her red was not usable. Again, if that were really the case after Battler came back to life she could have just said "Tough luck." I am not exactly sure why Lambda wanted Natsuhi to be a culprit but I am assuming she did not expect Erika to create a near perfect "seal" to give everyone else on the island alibis. I also thought wtf when I saw the court. I really don't know if Lambda saw that coming when she prepared the gameboard.

@Dark: Well, she does want to win. I don't think about it as out of her way. I think about what Bern did was showing that she could do way better than Battler as the detective and possibly save time by not going through 3 more games.

[Dark0303]

Killing even those who helped you is not out of your way? And the sheer enjoyment of the executions to come. That has nothing to do with proving she can do better than battler. It's like killing soldiers who have already surrendered to you. It's unnecessary.

[Smeckledorf]

Hey, we all don't celebrate victory the same way, now do we? lol.
Remember you are applying human emotions, or thought process, to a witch, and that has been Battler's supposed problem with his chessboard thinking. He can't think like Beatrice because he is not a witch.

[Dr. Akagi]

Bern has no real reason to hate Beatrice. Bern is heartless and inconsiderate but I am not sure she is doing anything out of hate. She is however heartless.

Yep. And I don't understand people hating her for that. Or for trying to sort the mess out in her own ruthless way.

If anything, I myself can sympathize with her (or Erika for that matter).

[Dark0303]

Originally Posted by Smeckledorf

Hey, we all don't celebrate victory the same way, now do we? lol.
Remember you are applying human emotions, or thought process, to a witch, and that has been Battler's supposed problem with his chessboard thinking. He can't think like Beatrice because he is not a witch.

A good point. Still that doesn't make them any less evil. Beato's evil facade was an act that much we know. However in bern's case this is her real side and yes it's evil by human world standards

[Smeckledorf]

I can't really say I sympathize with Bern, or Erika that matter in episode 6, but I do not really hate them. They play aggressively like Battler should have.
Evil, heartless same thing. I like the word immoral because it doesn't mean she likes being bad but rather she does not really know the difference or see the difference in doing good or bad.
If anything I think Virgilia is worse than Bern. Bern never pretended to be a good guy. Bern just stabbed Battler. Virgilia stabbed him in the back.(in episode 3)

I think my opinion differs from others about Bern being hateful because I hate Battler and I cannot trust Beatrice. Hell, I will not trust her ever.

[Dark0303]

what? erm yes she pretended to be a good guy. Remember her appearance in the series? She was gonna help Battler a little or so she said in the beginning then when Lambda showed up she started showing off her true side. The ugly heartless troll one. It's the same thing more or less

[Smeckledorf]

Well, I think you forgot exactly what Bern said. Bern pretty much thought Battler was helpless and that she should give him a little help, but she specifically stated she was NOT on his side or anything and that he better not bore her. Then she did a semi-trollface.

Also, even if she was completely on his side, his side is the player side which is antifantasy. Battler does not want to blame his family members which is antimystery. Bern is playing his side as antifantasy without his antimystery concerns. He should have done that from the beginning. If anything, I contend Battler is the traitor and an ungrateful pos.

[Dark0303]

Battler doesn't want to blame his family? Erm no that's not true. Remember in Episode 4? He blamed his family over and over during that fight much to Beato's amusement.

Spoiler for Episode 6 related:

Just cause miss AuAu says that battler doesn't want to blame his family it doesn't mean it's true. Frankly the way I see it he doesn't want to expose the truth until his real opponent is back which while it might seem like a betrayal, is an honorable thing to do. Especially given that it would seem Beato herself had no involvement with the massacre of his family. Not to mention there is no REAL guarantee he'll be alive if he ever won the game anyway

[Smeckledorf]

What are you talking about? If you read episode 6 then you know I am right. Think about Battler's game. That is all I will say because this is for episode 5. Anyways, Battler did that in episode 4 to just end the game kinda like what Bern did in 5. Except Battler just made up random crap to win. And he did not come as close as Bern to doing so. Think about the end of episode 5, who was his culprit in that theory? Him. He just is trying to play the good guy on an emotional rollercoaster.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Smeckledorf

You are forgetting about the rules of the court, Jan, you have to have evidence on the gameboard to use red in it. Lambda did not show evidence of Natsuhi's innocence during the game so her red was not usable. Again, if that were really the case after Battler came back to life she could have just said "Tough luck." I am not exactly sure why Lambda wanted Natsuhi to be a culprit but I am assuming she did not expect Erika to create a near perfect "seal" to give everyone else on the island alibis. I also thought wtf when I saw the court. I really don't know if Lambda saw that coming when she prepared the gameboard.

Read it again, those rules only apply to humans.

......In this court, if anyone other than witches is going to speak the red truth, they'll have to construct an appropriate proof for it. Erika has been following this procedure, right

Got it? Ther has never been any kind of rule that prevents the witch side from disclosing red truths.

also

Bern: Ushiromiya Krauss is not the culprit

Battler: Th, then why can you claim that Krauss oji-san is dead without his corpse?!! Doesn't that violate Knox's somethingth or whatever?!!

Cornelia: Know that the red truth is simply truth, and there is no need to provide evidence or proof

In this case Bern uses a red without any kind of proof. Battler object that this violates a knox rule, but it was countered because the red truth is simply the truth, and that is the only reason.

BTW: how did you get the impression that Lambda was troubled at all? She enjoyed everything till the end.

[Smeckledorf]

Lambdadelta is the judge and the judge is impartial. That was used in episode 6 but I guess the same thing probably applies here. This still does not contradict Lambdadelta giving Battler a second chance when she did not have to. Lambdadelta is a hard egg to crack and we probably will never understand her. Except her obvious attempts to keep the game going.

[Dark0303]

Originally Posted by Smeckledorf

What are you talking about? If you read episode 6 then you know I am right. Think about Battler's game. That is all I will say because this is for episode 5. Anyways, Battler did that in episode 4 to just end the game kinda like what Bern did in 5. Except Battler just made up random crap to win. And he did not come as close as Bern to doing so. Think about the end of episode 5, who was his culprit in that theory? Him. He just is trying to play the good guy on an emotional rollercoaster.

Hahahaha I'll admit you got me there. I haven't read more than a minimal amount of spoilers from EP 6 so I base my claim on episodes 2 to 5 :P

Hmm I don't really see how what Battler did in EP 4 is similar to how Bern did things in EP 5. Still that's your opinion and I have my own so let's leave it at that.

@Jan: LOL that part with poor Battler struggling to counter that red. Felt sorry for the guy and how pathetic he was acting in that losing battle

[Smeckledorf]

Originally Posted by Dark0303

Hahahaha I'll admit you got me there. I haven't read more than a minimal amount of spoilers from EP 6 so I base my claim on episodes 2 to 5 :P

Hmm I don't really see how what Battler did in EP 4 is similar to how Bern did things in EP 5. Still that's your opinion and I have my own so let's leave it at that.

@Jan: LOL that part with poor Battler struggling to counter that red. Felt sorry for the guy and how pathetic he was acting in that losing battle

Well, what I meant is Battler was pissed that Ange just had been torn to pieces. So he just started trying to explain a human could do each of the murders, which is his win condition. When Battler tries to win he will start throwing out names but he is very conservative with blame when he plays his usual style.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Smeckledorf

Lambdadelta is the judge and the judge is impartial. That was used in episode 6 but I guess the same thing probably applies here. This still does not contradict Lambdadelta giving Battler a second chance when she did not have to. Lambdadelta is a hard egg to crack and we probably will never understand her. Except her obvious attempts to keep the game going.

There was no need for Lambda to be the Judge in this game. She said she was going to take Beatrice's place, at the start of the game, and she was supposed to play on the witch's side, this means she wasn't supposed to be impartial at all.

Lambda just decided to do so by herself. I think there are two main possibilities to explain Lambda's behavior:

1) Letting Bern win this game was in her plans since the beginning. After all Bern would just win a battle not the war. The fact that a sixth game was in program means that Bern still didn't win on all fronts. Maybe Lambda had something in mind for that sixth game.

2) Lambda doesn't care that much about Bern winning, so far she just lied and the only thing she cares is to enjoy this game and enjoy seeing Bern struggling to solve it.

P.S: please avoid mentioning EP6 at all.

[Smeckledorf]

The latter is pretty much correct, she did steal Bern's victory in this game so she must not really want Bern to win.