[Manga] Chapter 361 Discussion

[cheese4u]

The only thing that gets me, is that it seems that the famous Naruto circle has risen with yet another character.

First it was:

Lee stronger than Naruto
Neji stronger than Lee
then Naruto stronger than Neji.

Then it was: (roughly)
Oro stronger than Jiraiya
Itachi stronger than Oro
Jiraiya stronger than Itachi

Now if Sasuke loses then its going to be:
Sasori stronger than Deidara
Oro stronger than Sasori
Sasuke stronger than Oro
Deidara stronger than Sasuke

Of course, all of these can be explained but still it would be nice to have a better idea of characters and there strengths.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by cheese4u

The only thing that gets me, is that it seems that the famous Naruto circle has risen with yet another character.

First it was:

Lee stronger than Naruto
Neji stronger than Lee
then Naruto stronger than Neji.

Then it was: (roughly)
Oro stronger than Jiraiya
Itachi stronger than Oro
Jiraiya stronger than Itachi

Now if Sasuke loses then its going to be:
Sasori stronger than Deidara
Oro stronger than Sasori
Sasuke stronger than Oro
Deidara stronger than Sasuke

Of course, all of these can be explained but still it would be nice to have a better idea of characters and there strengths.

Yeah, most of those rankings do have a lot of factors. Like Naruto being able match Neji. That was after a month of training and it can also be argued that he won largely due to Neji underestimating him and dropping his guard.

And I don't remember where Oro was ever directly compared to Sasori, only that Oro felt he was capable of fighting him (possibly with Kabuto's aid). Of course, both Deidara and Sasori seemed confident that they could kill Oro as well.

But overall, I think it's better that way. Trying to form a strict ladder system of who's stronger than who, restricts the characters a lot and simplifies the story's fighting system, which has a fair amount of complexity. It's fine to place a character at an overall level of strength like Kage level, but to say that one character defeated another and therefore must be stronger than another character by proxy is not something that works in this manga. Many of the battles depend on specialized skills, knowledge of the opponent, assistance from teammates and sometimes even dumb luck. Rarely are battles a match of raw power.

[That Other Ninja]

You don't have to be the stronger/better ninja to beat one.

[tatami]

sasuke is NOT stronger then oro!! why do people misjudge the power stuff this much?

[That Other Ninja]

Because they're ignorant?

[tatami]

maybe its fanboyism but i dont really know...

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by tatami

sasuke is NOT stronger then oro!! why do people misjudge the power stuff this much?

Probably because he said "Orochimaru, you are weaker than me" and then proceeded to defeat him.

If only the result of the fight mattered, then Sasuke would undoubtedly be considered stronger. And that's how cheese4u was basing his rankings. But because of the circumstances, I admit there's room for doubt as to exactly how strong he is. Still, Sasuke so far has done nothing that suggests he's weaker than Oro.

[Souten no Seigyoku]

Just because attacks are straightforward it doesnt mean you cant get nailed by them. Diedra's C4 had a weakness which Sasuke exploited. However, if he did another C4-type explosion; one that didnt have a weakness, it'd be over. Everything in the radius is gone. Of course... so would Diedra.

Of course Diedra will lose because you know theres going to be the fated Sasuke/Itachi meeting. So Diedra has to lose. Maybe theyll do a cop out like Diedra really about to kill him and Sasukes buddies appear to save the day.

I havent read the chapter yet

[tatami]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Probably because he said "Orochimaru, you are weaker than me" and then proceeded to defeat him.

If only the result of the fight mattered, then Sasuke would undoubtedly be considered stronger. And that's how cheese4u was basing his rankings. But because of the circumstances, I admit there's room for doubt as to exactly how strong he is. Still, Sasuke so far has done nothing that suggests he's weaker than Oro.

defeating somebody does not mean stronger...

sasuke defeated oro because of oro s intention
gaara lost deidara to protect his village (i dont say he could win or loose just the cause)
etc etc...

its not only about power and defeating someone doesnt mean you are stronger then him.it depends on circumstances..

tell me this:

if shizune stab jiraiya with a kunai when she found him drugged...will it make shizune stronger then jiraiya?

[Ero-Senn1n]

I don't understand all this whining about Sasuke defeating Deidara. Just look at the story as a whole: the most built up, awaited and hyped fight of the whole series is the Itachi vs Sasuke confrontation. In the very beginning of the manga Sasuke states his most important goal is to kill Itachi and almost always acts according to that. Even Naruto did not have such a built up enemy, actually there was no enemy for Naruto in the beginning, and for a long time there was no akatsuki in the manga, and even now we know that for akatsuki Naruto is just one of the preys, nothing special about that. So it's just natural that lots of evil and good side characters are used to hype up this fight, and as we see both Orochimaru and Deidara are side characters used to build up the highest ever tension for the eventual clash. Just as Kakashi's sharingan and Naruto's demon powers were used to build up the tension. So everything is being set up for the most epic fight of this manga.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by tatami

defeating somebody does not mean stronger...

sasuke defeated oro because of oro s intention
gaara lost deidara to protect his village (i dont say he could win or loose just the cause)
etc etc...

its not only about power and defeating someone doesnt mean you are stronger then him.it depends on circumstances..

tell me this:

if shizune stab jiraiya with a kunai when she found him drugged...will it make shizune stronger then jiraiya?

I didn't say that he was undoubtedly stronger. I'm just saying that there's plenty of hints and hype that suggest he could very well be more powerful than Oro even when he was healthy.

Those include but are not limited to:

- all Kakashi's yakkity yak about the new generations surpassing the old

- Oro saying Sasuke's growth as a genius surpasses his own

- Sasuke being shown to defeat hundreds of ninja without breaking a sweat

- Sasuke himself saying that he's grown stronger than Oro,

- Sasuke fighting against two Akatsuki members and holding his own without any preparation or backup

I'm saying that all these facts combined with the fact that he defeated Oro even when he successfully performed the ritual (something both Kabuto and Oro believed couldn't happen) suggests Sasuke might be stronger than him. Considering all that, why would it be ignorance when someone assumes Sasuke is stronger?

[cheese4u]

Originally Posted by tatami

defeating somebody does not mean stronger...

sasuke defeated oro because of oro s intention
gaara lost deidara to protect his village (i dont say he could win or loose just the cause)
etc etc...

its not only about power and defeating someone doesnt mean you are stronger then him.it depends on circumstances..

tell me this:

if shizune stab jiraiya with a kunai when she found him drugged...will it make shizune stronger then jiraiya?

And I agree with your for the most part. Just because someone lost does not mean that there weaker, but in the same respect being stronger than someone does not equate to physical strength alone. If so then we could say that everyone is stronger than Shikamaru, who fights basically with his brains and one or two jutsu. Sasuke waited for the perfect time to attack Oro, even though Sasuke hit him with a sort of sneak attack, Orochimaru being the genius ninja that he is should've been prepared for a sneak attack from anyone especially Sasuke, which he was. The motives don't matter they fought in a fair match and Oro lost. So for now Sasuke is stronger than Oro. Seriously how does this sound, "Orochimaru lost...oh but its ok he had an excuse." Give me a break, over the course of 50 years and a great ninja war how many times do you think Orochimaru was in that situation or something similar to it and came out on top? Until we here otherwise Orochimaru did not win, therefore he is not stronger.

[tatami]

orochimaru LOST i agree but we cannot tell who is STRONGER ...thats my point.

[kuzon234ray]

I have an idea! Okay, I can see if the spoiler ends up true, it could make sense because Deidara said with his left eye he can conteract the sharingon but not all genjustus are made by using sharingon. So maybe Deidara CAN see genjustus made by sharingon, but CAN'T see through any(non-obvious) genjustus. So, it is possible... And yes, I know we left this disscusion awhile ago but I had this on my mind....

[tatami]

what is a sharingon ? just kidding

it is a good point that is there a difference between regular genjutsu and sharingan genjutsu?

[epyon96]

Originally Posted by tatami

orochimaru LOST i agree but we cannot tell who is STRONGER ...thats my point.

You never have any type of certainty in a imaginery universe like Naruto. So essentially, your argument degenerates into something along the lines of, "We are sure about nothing in Naruto with relation to strength".

The point that everyone seem to be making is that from the evidence demonstrated so far, Sasuke seems to be stronger than Orochimaru at that point in time. Nothing has demonstrated otherwise, while there are plenty of evidence pointing to the fact that he was. As a result, some forum members like to conclude he is stronger of the two.

However, it is rather difficult to construct an argument for Orochimaru being stronger than Sasuke with the same evidence.

[tatami]

ok tell me what happened after sasuke cut orochimaru 2-3 pieces?

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by epyon96

The point that everyone seem to be making is that from the evidence demonstrated so far, Sasuke seems to be stronger than Orochimaru at that point in time.

Sasuke was only stronger in the area of genjutsu - thanks to Sharingan -, as that is also the reason why Oro lost.

However, in terms of overall strength Oro was the stronger one. Even after using paralyzing poison on Sasuke, Oro had the chance to kill Sasuke, but he didn't. Doesn't mean he couldn't, only that he chose to not kill him. Also, till that point it was Sasuke who was trying to kill Oro but couldn't succeed in doing so. And it was Oro who was trying to avoid killing Sasuke.

Lastly, Oro didn't lose at full strength, because of Sasuke's sneaky attack (just like the one Tsunade used on Jiraiya), Oro was weaker compared to his original self, at the beginning of that fight. Despite that, he was still stronger than Sasuke, when you compare the overall strengths.

[tatami]

Originally Posted by Sazelyt

Sasuke was only stronger in the area of genjutsu - thanks to Sharingan -, as that is also the reason why Oro lost.

However, in terms of overall strength Oro was the stronger one. Even after using paralyzing poison on Sasuke, Oro had the chance to kill Sasuke, but he didn't. Doesn't mean he couldn't, only that he chose to not kill him. Also, till that point it was Sasuke who was trying to kill Oro but couldn't succeed in doing so. And it was Oro who was trying to avoid killing Sasuke.

Lastly, Oro didn't lose at full strength, because of Sasuke's sneaky attack (just like the one Tsunade used on Jiraiya), Oro was weaker compared to his original self, at the beginning of that fight. Despite that, he was still stronger than Sasuke, when you compare the overall strengths.

thanks...now that means "sense"

[Kakosan]

Originally Posted by Sazelyt

Even after using paralyzing poison on Sasuke, Oro had the chance to kill Sasuke, but he didn't. Doesn't mean he couldn't, only that he chose to not kill him. Also, till that point it was Sasuke who was trying to kill Oro but couldn't succeed in doing so. And it was Oro who was trying to avoid killing Sasuke.

I completely agree with you. Orochimaru's purpose wasn't to kill Sasuke, but to possess his body. That lead to fight in the genjutsu arena, where the sharingan has the advantage (no surprises here). It's been also said in the manga: to kill someone is a much easier task compared to his/her capture.