[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Drifloon]

Yeah, I've been following that and very much enjoying it. Their interpretation of Yasu and general way of looking at Umineko is really refreshing, I think.

[AuraTwilight]

Stupid Goats is awesome, thanks for keeping us up to date.

[DaBackpack]

This is just priceless

[GoldenLand]

The Stupid Goats read-through is excellent. Thanks for linking the document file, Oroboro!

In the re-read, one of the people mentions that in original plans, Natsuhi and Gohda were going to be having an affair. I may vaguely remember hearing something about this before now, but I have no idea where. Does anyone know the source of that information?

[Witch of Uncertainty]

Oh my god, that was a brilliant readthrough. I just finished reading through the analysis of ep 1. Will he/she/they do all the episodes?

[AuraTwilight]

They intend to, yes.

And there's two readers, FYI. One of them is a girl, I'm not sure of the other and I can't tell you which is which. The archive style's kind of weird.

[Witch of Uncertainty]

Excellent. I've replayed the games a couple of times, and must honestly admit that they are noticing things I never did. Makes me appreciate some of the characters a lot more (poor Yasu).

There's something I don't get, though, though maybe I'd have better luck asking, and not here.. But according to them, Yasu has been planning on blowing up the island for quite some time.
Is this just in the "Novels" or in Prime too? Because I can't make sense of it, since in ep 7, she complained that if it had been the year before, or the year after, a small incident might have occured (Either that Shannon or Kanon "died" or Yasu commiting suicide (both died), was my interpretation), but this doesn't make sense if she planned on blowing up the island the whole time, does it?

[Renall]

The people who write the blog or whatever are insightful, but they are given to massive bouts of Yasupologism (stop excusing everything and bagging on people other than her!) and seem intent on believing that she totally dunnit in Prime as well... or at the very least aren't really considering any semblance of a "Prime theory" and are just thinking about her mental state.

I'd take any comments about the larger picture with a grain of salt, at least until such time as their commentary gets to Chiru as there's a lot of things that come up there which would seem to put the lie to the notion that Yasu was the culprit or was even premeditating murder at all, while also providing alternate theories about it.

But none of those theories really exist in ep1-4, and Yasu is clearly intending to cast herself/Shannon/Kanon/Beatrice as the culprit in Legend and Turn. So discussing it in that context is probably appropriate, and one can presume that the culprit character of those episodes was planning on blowing up the island the whole time.

Also I would caution against believing everything they "find" was necessarily there in the first place. Ryukishi had eight episodes to change things and we happen to know a major reshuffling of the series happened right after Turn. So are some of these things there all along, or were they retroactively made relevant? There's a lot of parts of Legend that don't end up going anywhere later, you just don't notice because they didn't.

[Jaden]

Seems like a pretty cool blog. I've already given up at discovering anything new and significant in Umineko. If there is something, maybe thick and tinted glasses are what is needed to see it.

(I tried love, didn't work)

And well, otherwise their commentary would be just a play-by-play, and not very interesting to read, right?

[Wanderer]

Regarding this quote:

on wanting yasu to be happy:

“Ryukishi: I think for that her, who lived for love, at the moment that was fulfilled, her life was fully completed. That’s why to preserve that feeling perfectly for eternity, so that no one could destroy it, she just wanted to quickly seal herself in the catbox.”

I dug through the tweets and found it. It was a response to:

今でも考えるのはヤスには幸せになって欲しかったです！入水が幻想で無ければ幸せかもしれませんが...真 実は猫箱へ...

(It's just someone musing that if Beato drowning herself was just an illusion, then Yasu could maybe be happy.)

In context, Ryukishi's comment doesn't seem to have anything to do with things like Yasu killing anyone or blowing up the island; it's only about her decision to commit suicide during the motor boat scene.

Originally Posted by Simplice Cantabile

the fragments shown may represent different versions of reality!

In what sense? Different possible realities? Or different actual realities?

Originally Posted by Drifloon

We're talking about the guy who named Kyrie, Ange and Asumu after Ragnarok Online spell names here. I wouldn't read too deeply into Ryukishi's choices of character names.

Oh, I don't know... that he chose those particular spells might say something about the characters.

For example, all three spells are buffs, but "Kyrie Eleison" and "Assumptio" are specially exclusive to each other; both buffs can't be active at the same time (that means you, Rudolf!).

As for "Angelus", it doesn't have any such restrictions, but it's just plain useless to begin with!

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

Regarding this quote:

I dug through the tweets and found it. It was a response to:
(It's just someone musing that if Beato drowning herself was just an illusion, then Yasu could maybe be happy.)

In context, Ryukishi's comment doesn't seem to have anything to do with things like Yasu killing anyone or blowing up the island; it's only about her decision to commit suicide during the motor boat scene.

It really is sad that people like to take R07's quotes out of context so often...

Anyway, how about this: Beatrice can not, under any circumstances, leave Rokkenjima. She is bound to Rokkenjima. That does not apply to Yasu though, so while Beatrice "never leaves the island", the fate of Yasu is hidden in the cat box.
The problem with this is that it takes a quite literal stance about that boat scene.

Originally Posted by Wanderer

In what sense? Different possible realities? Or different actual realities?

Or maybe it is just fictional realities. Some of the characters in the fragments were definitly "out of character", so what Dlanor said about some characters always having the same characterization and capabilities, even if not controlled by the player, possibly only applied to EP5. After all we had all the talk about "subjectivity" in Umineko. If we suppose that EP5 was based on a forgery by multiple witch hunters, who asked people that know the Rokkenjima victims, it would certainly create a more "obejctive" characterization, while Legend and Turn were created from the memory of supposedly 1 person.

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

The problem with this is that it takes a quite literal stance about that boat scene.

If the scene was even based on a real event at all.

Originally Posted by GreyZone

If we suppose that EP5 was based on a forgery by multiple witch hunters, who asked people that know the Rokkenjima victims, it would certainly create a more "obejctive" characterization, while Legend and Turn were created from the memory of supposedly 1 person.

Although in EP6 Ange credited 18^8 with writing End.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

Although in EP6 Ange credited 18^8 with writing End.

That is why I said it is based on a witch hunter forgery. The original was probably proving that Natsuhi was the cultprit. But in the 18^8 version Battler "entered" at some point. That is the point where 18^8 changes the story, where Battler says one of his favorite phrases "it's no use, no use at all". We however only saw a "metaphoric version" of what happened after, with the court.

[Renall]

It's also interesting to think about the meta-implications of stories after Dawn. Featherine invites Bernkastel to participate at the end of ep6; what does that mean for what Requiem is supposed to be? What is Twilight? Each has what appear to be at least 2-3 possible stories in them, but also a bunch of information that doesn't seem like it would be in either a fiction or a reality.

We know there are other Fragments and other theories because of the whole goat thing (plus there's an infinite sea of them and we only see a dozen at best). But we only sort of kind of have authorial attribution for six of them.

[HoroBoro]

Hello good people. I've come here in search of something to un-muck my mind. So after reading the translated transcript of "Answers to the Golden Witch" I guess it's set in stone by the voice of god that Kannon = Shannon.

This does not sit right with me, as:

1. I hate to see Kannon reduced to a personality.
2. How does one pretend to be two people to at least 7+ people for years on end?
3. KaNNON ShaNNON... I mean... Come on... Right?

As well as a number of other concerns that I have which I'm too mind-screwed to find and list right now.

So what I'm seeking is:

1. Comfort that, neigh, perhaps even proof that Ryukishi07 was high during the interview or the translation leaves room for interpretation.
2. Barring that, Skannon!=Beatrice.
3. Barring that, a good psychiatrist in the west bay area that has read Umineko.

[AuraTwilight]

Dude, Shannon, Kanon, and Beatrice are the same person, get over it.

[Drifloon]

There are a number of interpretations that don't require Yasu to have actually acted the part of two different people in the real world, though.

But yes, it is pretty hard to argue against the fact that Shannon and Kanon are two aspects of a single person's psyche, although a certain nine hour Youtube video does exist.

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by HoroBoro

1. I hate to see Kannon reduced to a personality.

Yasu felt that way as well.

Originally Posted by HoroBoro

2. How does one pretend to be two people to at least 7+ people for years on end?

Kanon didn't appear until 1984- after Yasu became the heir. By then Yasu had complete control over servant shifts and such, including whether Kanon or Shannon were even scheduled to be on the island at the same time (servants rotated between Fukuin and Rokkenjima). Also Genji/Kumasawa/Nanjo would be covering for her.

And we don't even know if she role-played Kanon in front of outsiders much at all, aside from October 1986.

Originally Posted by HoroBoro

3. KaNNON ShaNNON... I mean... Come on... Right?

Shannon's name in kanji is 紗音 and Kanon's name is 嘉音. The kanji "音" is traditionally part of all fukuin servants' "blessed" names, so although the similarity in their names is artificial, it's explained and isn't any particular hint that they are the same person.

Originally Posted by Drifloon

although a certain nine hour Youtube video does exist.

Although KnownNoMore hasn't touched the comments on his Umineko videos in months, despite being busy with his usual atheism videos. He may have given up...

[HoroBoro]

Well thanks for the feedback. I have read and attempted to internalize.

I still think it's rather convenient for Shannon to = Kanon = Beatrice as it would resolve a lot of issues like the logic error, the final red truths with Erika, all of episode 6, actually. Willard's hints, the linked closed room, Kanon returning from the dead... etc...

But then, it seems to throw some common sense stuff out the window. Like for instance:

1. Hide voice/secondary sexual characteristics for 3 years from Jessica, Natsumi and Krauss too? Also, hasn't anyone noticed during the conferences at 84 and 85 - hey, when Kannon is here, Shannon is not...

2. While planning to hide Kinzo's body... Did Genji just say - "Yea - I'll let Kanon know not to tell everyone too." And how did that even fly with Krauss and Natsumi?

3. When the heads start rolling, how is it that no one (though everyone and their mom suspects the servants) notice that Kanon and Shannon are never at the same place, when it's very important that everyone is accounted for at the same place?

4. How does killing the other love of your life (or if Battler enters the equation, a third love of your life) allow you to find love and live a normal life? Wouldn't that get to you? I mean... Shannon contemplated for years because of Battler's indiscretion, but killing Jessica who whole heartily loves you as a potential girlfriend/friend would not affect her in the slightest? Maybe she didn't think that far ahead, but Shannon seems quite the planner if she's Skannontrice.

5. Yes the servant name thing, but when it was first brought up, I thought it was to mislead (~story 1-3). But then I thought it couldn't be to mislead because, it wouldn't make sense if Kanon was Shannon once I learned more about the background and all the complex and wonderful shipping. And now, to find out that, yes Kanon is Shannon again... With all this other stuff not resolved... Kinda makes me unsatisfied.

6. Perhaps clutching at straws here, but Kanon has black hair. Shannon has brown hair.

7. Perhaps even more vapid: "The servant is crazy and kills everyone" is just a bit lacking in class.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by HoroBoro

1. Hide voice/secondary sexual characteristics for 3 years from Jessica, Natsumi and Krauss too? Also, hasn't anyone noticed during the conferences at 84 and 85 - hey, when Kannon is here, Shannon is not...

The reason you cannot believe shkanontrice, is the same reason why Krauss and Natsuhi cannot believe it: It sounds ridiculous. That makes it easy to be not found out.

Originally Posted by HoroBoro

2. While planning to hide Kinzo's body... Did Genji just say - "Yea - I'll let Kanon know not to tell everyone too." And how did that even fly with Krauss and Natsumi?

I am not sure which scene you mean, but if it is after Kinzo's real death, then Krauss and Natsuhi have the intention themselves to hide Kinzo's death. They trust Genji to make sure that no one finds out.

Originally Posted by HoroBoro

3. When the heads start rolling, how is it that no one (though everyone and their mom suspects the servants) notice that Kanon and Shannon are never at the same place, when it's very important that everyone is accounted for at the same place?

By actively killing one of them off very early. In EP1 Shannon "died" during the first twilight, in EP2 Kanon "died" during the second twilight and in EP3 both of them "died" during the first twilight. We have not enough information to find out in what order everyone died in EP4, because Battler was contained in the guesthouse most of the time.

Originally Posted by HoroBoro

4. How does killing the other love of your life (or if Battler enters the equation, a third love of your life) allow you to find love and live a normal life? Wouldn't that get to you? I mean... Shannon contemplated for years because of Battler's indiscretion, but killing Jessica who whole heartily loves you as a potential girlfriend/friend would not affect her in the slightest? Maybe she didn't think that far ahead, but Shannon seems quite the planner if she's Skannontrice.

Did you hear of "Prime Theory" yet? It says that aside from all these fictions we saw, there is a "real" Rokkenjima, in which ShKanonTrice is not the murderer and the stories are just her way to deal with her feelings or she is trying to hide the real culprit.

Originally Posted by HoroBoro

5. Yes the servant name thing, but when it was first brought up, I thought it was to mislead (~story 1-3). But then I thought it couldn't be to mislead because, it wouldn't make sense if Kanon was Shannon once I learned more about the background and all the complex and wonderful shipping. And now, to find out that, yes Kanon is Shannon again... With all this other stuff not resolved... Kinda makes me unsatisfied.

Well then you at least understand how hard it was for ShKanonTrice/Yasu

Originally Posted by HoroBoro

6. Perhaps clutching at straws here, but Kanon has black hair. Shannon has brown hair.

Shannon's hair is very likely a wig.

Originally Posted by HoroBoro

7. Perhaps even more vapid: "The servant is crazy and kills everyone" is just a bit lacking in class.

See Prime theory.