(L) Kara No Kyokai

[OceanBlue]

Quoted from Cat Megex from mirrormoon. Not official, but eh.

1. Ryougi Shiki does see lines (and possibly dots, though I don't really know). However, rather than seeing just plain black lines...she sees lines in COLOR! (At least, when we see it from her point of view in movie #1 [it was pretty cool-looking].)
2. She can activate or deactivate her ability at will, which is how she keeps from going insane like Tohno Shiki would if he didn't have his glasses.
3. If her target (for lack of a better word) is not normal, or is something that she hasn't experienced/seen before, she has to observe her target for a little while before she is able to comprehend how to "kill" it; that's why she couldn't just kill Fujino's attacks from the beginning, but had to wait for her mind to comprehend it (and lost an arm in the process; although, admittedly, the fact that she then got an artificial arm with the ability to grab spirits could be considered a major bonus there.).

I'm not sure if Tohno can comprehend the death of a servant.

[Klashikari]

While Tohno Shiki would have issue against Servants, I'm pretty sure that Ryougi would be able to do something against a servant.

Spoiler for F/SN End Fate route, UWB etc:

After all, Shirou was able to smash out Berserker with Saber, and even "soloing" Gilgamesh despite being a mere human.
That is even worse if you add UBW case, where he simply ridicule him with the reality marble (albeit of course, Gil would have obliterated him with Enuma Elish if he was serious from the start, instead of being the highly conceited guy).

The Magan is absolute, but Tohno has the utter lower hand as he has a split life, anemia and being unable to comprehend anything past the "living beings", and the mere "object" put already a strain on him, so obviously, a heroic spirit would kill off his brain if he ever attempts to analyze it.
However, In Ryougi's case, she isn't affected by the Magan restrain and can basically annihilate anything provided she can reach the target.
Even if Ryouigi is human, she still have the qualities to fight back against a Servant and kill it. Just as usual, in nasuverse, the "situation" is more important than the power difference (see how Shirou owned Gil).

As for Tohno's Magan, it has been hinted heavely that his Magan is evolving considering that the strengthened Magangoroshi isn't able to restrain the Magan's powers in several instances. It is unknown if Shiki is able to lessen the effect of the straining damage of the magan).

[Cat Megex]

Originally Posted by OceanBlue

Quoted from Cat Megex from mirrormoon.

Inter-forum quoting, eh? XD

[Alaya]

Ryougi Shiki's and Tohno Shiki's eyes are the same things. However, Tohno Shiki eye's cannot see death of concepts or phenomenons (because it would overload his brain or his eyes are not that advanced). On the other hand, Ryougi Shiki's eyes has problem seeing death for non-living things. You will see this in chapter 5 (if the anime mentioned about it, though).

For battling servants, both Shiki will end their own lives pretty quickly. They stood no chance at all. I'm not saying about they can see lines of death on servants or not. Just only physical attribute is already on the difference level. Take Lancer as an example, he could step *backward* real fast (I'm not sure how fast but it's around 500m per 3 seconds). Archer could run and catch a F-1 car if want to. Berserker can rush and slash with the speed of sound. How could a mere human win against this monster.

Don't take Shirou VS. Gil as an example. Firstly, Shirou ability is what is the most effective way to counter Gil's Gate of Babylon. Secondly, Gil never fights seriously. If he does, Shirou would bite the dust even before he could cast UBW.

So the Shiki's cannot win against servants for sure. Well, Ryougi Shiki could if she.....

Spoiler for Huge Huge Huge spoiler for Ryougi Shiki:

is in the 3rd personality. Since the third personality (not the one that we have seen in the anime yet) is directly connect to the root of all things, she could probably do anything she want.

PS. On a side note, normally Type-Moon's wikia is very accurate. It's a main source that we use to supports our ideas in an argument or discussion in die hard Type-Moon's fan board, Beast's Lair.

[OceanBlue]

Originally Posted by Cat Megex

Inter-forum quoting, eh? XD

Hey, it's information.

Taken from fuyuki [About Servants vs. Shiki]:

Spoiler for KnK spoiler:

Taken from the matome site - these are all from official interviews with Kinoko from Comptiq, Dengeki Hime, or Techgian.

[...]

Q. In the other Type-Moon works, who else besides Arc can fight against Servants?
A. If we're working on the condition of one on one, with an extremely average Noble Phantasm. Generally most of the 27 Ancestors, Kishima Kouma, Aozaki Aoko.
If it's just a defensive fight, but would still be a fight, then Ciel. Shiki (Rakkyo), Shiki (Tsukihime) are no match for Servants....but Ryougi Shiki (3rd personality) might be able to go as far as the Ciel class.

Edit: Alaya basically says what I quoted. Unlike Wikipedia, the Type-Moon Wikia is written by people who actually know what they're talking about and usually have sources for such information.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Alaya

On the other hand, Ryougi Shiki's eyes has problem seeing death for non-living things. You will see this in chapter 5 (if the anime mentioned about it, though).

Here is the little issue with this chapter 3, as she is basically annihilating things that are unliving (I would hardly consider Fujino's bend powers as "living"). Even herself says about being able to destroy anything, even god. As result, is that an inconsistency or the "spoiler" already happened by the time we are in this chapter? Sames goes for chapter 1 (logical, since it is after chapter 3): she is slaughtering unliving, but outright phenomenons.

Don't take Shirou VS. Gil as an example. Firstly, Shirou ability is what is the most effective way to counter Gil's Gate of Babylon. Secondly, Gil never fights seriously. If he does, Shirou would bite the dust even before he could cast UBW.

I personally felt that odd Gil was owned that hard despite Shirou seemed to have countered only Gate of Babylon, and Gil "should" have got the upper if he would simply take advantage of the difference of abilities in battle (but again, gil was retardly ego to the point of being one of the most stupid TYPE MOON char). Ah well, would be rather if servants aren't added in the equation, it will turn into a ugly cross discussion

[OceanBlue]

There's nothing wrong with a cross discussion, in my opinion. I just wonder if it's appropriate for this thread.

Oh, well. Word of God says that Ryougi can't defeat servants, unless [See spoiler in Alaya's or my post.].

[Cat Megex]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Here is the little issue with this chapter 3, as she is basically annihilating things that are unliving (I would hardly consider Fujino's bend powers as "living"). Even herself says about being able to destroy anything, even god. As result, is that an inconsistency or the "spoiler" already happened by the time we are in this chapter? Sames goes for chapter 1 (logical, since it is after chapter 3): she is slaughtering unliving, but outright phenomenons.

I think it's that there's a difference between a non-living phenomenon caused by a living organism and a non-living object. For example: the manifestation of Fujino's powers as opposed to, let's say, a chair.

To be more precise, Ryougi Shiki can "kill" things that, while not necessarily alive themselves, are caused by (Fujino), or have their origins in (Kirie), something (or someone) living/alive. (In fact, if you take that far enough, you could say that Shiki can indeed kill anything, as most Nasuverse phenomenons, as well as most concepts in general that relate to life, have some origin in living things; as well, considering that the Nasuverse earths ["earths" because the Tsukihime-verse is different, if only slightly, from the KnK-verse] are said to be "alive" [i.e. a form of Gaia Theory], anything that originates on the planet could conceivably be killed by R-Shiki).

Extending on this premise, I hypothesize that, the further removed from its living origin a (non-living) phenomenon or object is, the harder it is (and/or the longer it takes) for R-Shiki to comprehend its death, even if she does not suffer any mental strain from the comprehension. (Reference OceanBlue's quote of one of my posts on the mirror moon forums.) This would explain why she had to endure Fujino's attacks before being able to defeat them, as well as why she has trouble comprehending the deaths of nonliving things.


Also, thanks to whoever put spoiler tags around an earlier post of mine (and labeled the tag); now I know where the stuff I was talking about came from. XD

[Izayoi]

Take Lancer as an example, he could step *backward* real fast (I'm not sure how fast but it's around 500m per 3 seconds). Archer could run and catch a F-1 car if want to. Berserker can rush and slash with the speed of sound.

~Seriously don't see them doing that in the anime, sigh.

Edit: So anyways, noticed the Black and White Ren reference just a while ago by browsing back. And if Aoko stole the eye glasses from Touko, does that mean Tsukihime is in about the same period or Touko is really old?

[Cat Megex]

Originally Posted by Setsilya~

And if Aoko stole the eye glasses from Touko, does that mean Tsukihime is in about the same period or Touko is really old?

Same period, approximately. But note that the universe is not the same; Tsukihime takes place in a different reality from Kara no Kyoukai. It just so happens that the two realities are quite similar.

[Alaya]

Oops, I miss one word back in the post. :P

Yeah, Cat Megex is right. Ryougi Shiki would have problem seeing lines of death of non-living objects but is able to see lines of concept (or to the extend, magecraft).

[Taiyakikung]

Um.How about satsujinki(Tsukihime2)?He can kill Nero's successor in a few seconds.

[d-one]

Originally Posted by Setsilya~

~Seriously don't see them doing that in the anime, sigh.

don't compare it to the anime

The anime almost not show us the true power of the servant

[Stargaze]

Originally Posted by Alaya

Oops, I miss one word back in the post. :P

Yeah, Cat Megex is right. Ryougi Shiki would have problem seeing lines of death of non-living objects but is able to see lines of concept (or to the extend, magecraft).

Hmm, that is what I thought too, except I remember reading the manga version of Tsukihime, when Shiki woke up in the hospital, he can see lines of death EVERYWHERE. Tables, walls, chairs and such. I wonder why Is it just that the manga isn't accurate?

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Cat Megex

Same period, approximately. But note that the universe is not the same; Tsukihime takes place in a different reality from Kara no Kyoukai. It just so happens that the two realities are quite similar.

This is the reason why people say there is no way that both Shiki would cross path.
Still, what is the reason/detail that show/prove that both stories realities aren't the same? Did Nasu confirmed that or are there some clues in both stories?

Originally Posted by Stargaze

Hmm, that is what I thought too, except I remember reading the manga version of Tsukihime, when Shiki woke up in the hospital, he can see lines of death EVERYWHERE. Tables, walls, chairs and such. I wonder why Is it just that the manga isn't accurate?

No, in the VN, Tohno Shiki could see the lines of the objects and the living alike when he was waking up from his coma, this isn't a mistake of the manga. The thing is that he has absolutely no control and he would turn into a vegetable if Aoko didn't barge with the magangoroshi.
Note that Shiki was unable to see the dots of any of the category until much later when Arc told him about that.
Seeing the lines of death of objects are straining a bit, but it is staring at the dots that are really the pain for him.

[Stargaze]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

No, in the VN, Tohno Shiki could see the lines of the objects and the living alike when he was waking up from his coma, this isn't a mistake of the manga. The thing is that he has absolutely no control and he would turn into a vegetable if Aoko didn't barge with the magangoroshi.
Note that Shiki was unable to see the dots of any of the category until much later when Arc told him about that.
Seeing the lines of death of objects are straining a bit, but it is staring at the dots that are really the pain for him.

I see, thanks for the clarification.

[Taiyakikung]

Spoiler for Touko:

From what I have heard,Touko can extend her life by transfering her soul to new artificial body she created.I think she might be very old in Kara.

[Alaya]

^
^
^

That's a huge spoiler. :P

[Taiyakikung]

Originally Posted by Alaya

^
^
^

That's a huge spoiler. :P

Sorry I forget to put the spoiler tag

[Cat Megex]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

This is the reason why people say there is no way that both Shiki would cross path.
Still, what is the reason/detail that show/prove that both stories realities aren't the same? Did Nasu confirmed that or are there some clues in both stories?

It's specifically stated on the Plus+Disc (don't know if it's on the Plus-Disc, though), in one of the cafe dialogues (I forget the specific name).

But yeah, it basically says that Tohno Shiki and Ryougi Shiki will never be able to meet, blah blah blah, etc...


Also, Tsukihime most likely takes place in either 1999 or 1993 (or 1982, but that's going a bit too far back for some of the technology featured in games related to Tsukihime, such as Kagetsu Tohya, which at one point features

Spoiler:

Kohaku playing a video game system with a controller similar to that of the PlayStation, though with only two shoulder buttons instead of four

) ; note that the first day of the game, October 21, is a Thursday, and in both 1999 and 1993 (and 1982, though as I said, that's unlikely), October 21 was a Thursday. I, personally, am going with 1999 as the year for Tsukihime.