Saimoe 2008 Pre-Discussion

[Daniel E.]

Originally Posted by qtipbrit92

The reason they progress in the tournament at all is from series popularity.

You could say the same thing for pretty much all the characters from popular shows in this competition.

Originally Posted by qtipbrit92

The thing is that their moe is just... nonexistant.

Personal opinion.

[qtipbrit]

Originally Posted by Daniel E.

You could say the same thing for pretty much all the characters from popular shows in this competition.

mmm... now tell me that Rozen Maiden and Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha are half as popular as The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya, Code Geass, or Lucky Star.

Originally Posted by Daniel E.

Personal opinion.

Saimoe 2007 says otherwise.

[Deathkillz]

Originally Posted by qtipbrit92

The thind is that they're not clean on the surface. Even in a minor tournament like ISML, there's clear hating (a lot from me), and in SaiGAR, there was even more due to the heavy proxy voting.

Well, that depends on whether you hide it or not. I do believe that there are a lot of hatings in such contests, especially when someone you like is defeated or when others who doen't deserve it, win not because of the character, but because of how overly overrated the external factors are (meaning a big fanbase in proportion).

The thing is that their moe is just... nonexistant.
The reason they progress in the tournament at all is from series popularity, which is why they don't progress as far, since it plays a much smaller factor in Japan than it does outside (SaiGAR, ISML, etc.)

Well what you think is moe isn't what others think. Series popularity also plays a hand I agree, but it's not the only reason (a necessary but not sufficient condition to fulfill because popularity gets them noticed). Take a step into the CG forum and browse around the romance thread, apparently a lot of people finds the cast moe (including me...honestly, I still can't get Nanali's "NYAAAAAAA~" out of my head ).

Forced moe is exactly what a moeblob is about. Lucky Star was ingenious in that it was able to parody moeblobs and still include one in its cast. Of course, it still doesn't make Tsukasa "truly moe", though she fakes it much better than Mikuru does.

Ahh...but whilst some can see through that, others got fanboy behind her thinking that she is the "real stuff".

Tsukasa fans would surely argue about the "fake" part

edit:

Originally Posted by qtipbrit92

mmm... now tell me that Rozen Maiden and Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha are half as popular as The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya, Code Geass, or Lucky Star.

Rozen maiden is VERY popular in Japan likewise with Nanoha...why do you suppose they are always at the center of attention in Saimoe?

Saimoe 2007 says otherwise.

And have you looked into the brackets?

[Daniel E.]

Originally Posted by qtipbrit92

mmm... now tell me that Rozen Maiden and Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha are half as popular as The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya, Code Geass, or Lucky Star.

Does it really matters wich one is more popular? a lot of characters rely on series mojo to move forward on the earlier rounds, and that's the simple truth of it.

Originally Posted by qtipbrit92

Saimoe 2007 says otherwise.

Saimoe says many things, even so, it never told me that Rika was gonna end up as the winner of the 2007 edition.

I wonder...... What is Saimoe gonna tell us this year?

[wontaek]

The biggest variable is how much banning will there be in Saimoe2008. I know that there is a fan club of Hitman Reborn that boosts of more than 1,000 member which became very active in various moe tournaments recently, and another fan club of similar number for the Gintama that became arch-rival of the Hitman group in these moe tournaments in Korea. There also is a smaller, but just as rabid fan club for Code Geass as well. These groups have openly vowed to dominate any moe tournament they can find, which would mean hundreds of votes for any character that appeared in REborn, Code Geass, or Gintama series coming from Korea, which translates to Saimoe actively banning most outside-Japan votes almost from the start. How the ban will be handled will decide majority of the matches as they could easily ban any region not voting the way they want, while allowing the votes from region that have the preference they desire.

[DragoonKain3]

Hmm interesting. I dropped Reborn and Gintama relatively early, both exhibiting the 'neverending story' and humour that didn't suit my tastes. If indeed they are going to be a factor in female moe tourneys (which I find mind boggling, as the amount of females they have is so small like most shounen shows), I think I'll have to restart watching it again.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by wontaek

The biggest variable is how much banning will there be in Saimoe2008. I know that there is a fan club of Hitman Reborn that boosts of more than 1,000 member which became very active in various moe tournaments recently, and another fan club of similar number for the Gintama that became arch-rival of the Hitman group in these moe tournaments in Korea. There also is a smaller, but just as rabid fan club for Code Geass as well. These groups have openly vowed to dominate any moe tournament they can find, which would mean hundreds of votes for any character that appeared in REborn, Code Geass, or Gintama series coming from Korea, which translates to Saimoe actively banning most outside-Japan votes almost from the start. How the ban will be handled will decide majority of the matches as they could easily ban any region not voting the way they want, while allowing the votes from region that have the preference they desire.

interesting, looks like i have to look up that nanoha mailing list and get the legion ready. 2008 saimoe could shape up to a all out war between fan groups.

[Eisdrache]

It seems that qtipbrit92 is similar to anti-kyoani what a certain person was to L*S.

If they end in somewhat similar strong groups I can see Tomoyo/Kotomi and maybe Nagisa outrunning any MSLN and Higurashi character by far except Fate.

Other than Clannad, MSLN and Higurashi I only see Horo to have a reasonable chance for advancing further, but that has already mentioned several times in this thread.

[KholdStare]

What, Japan doesn't like Hinagiku?

[Eisdrache]

How should I know, I am from Europe xD But I agree that Nagi and Hina (though personally I dont really think she is moe) get honorable mentions.

[Ithekro]

If ISML is any indication of the amount of "foriegn" voters in Saimoe, we are looking at 600+ voters from outside Japan verses about 3,000+ Japanese voters. 1:5 isn't all that much as it stands now, but it is enough to tip the balance in tight matches. Now if the more rabid 1,000+ fans groups start voting as well, then the equation will be vastly different.

At least the KyoAni factions seem more randomly scattered. While there may be some orginized fan groups, most encountered KyoAni fans so far have been on their own. That and there are several that cross fan lines for whatever reason and don't blindly vote for a single faction. They also seem to be the one faction that likes to have fun with their matches (Yuki vs. Mikuru (also vs. Haruhi, vs. everyone else and the cricket). The only other character I've seen that is about as fun to vote with or for is Rena Ryugu. And that's only because the "Take Home" mentality works great for Saimoe. "So many cute things....I'm going to take them home!"

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Eisdrache

It seems that qtipbrit92 is similar to anti-kyoani what a certain person was to L*S.

If they end in somewhat similar strong groups I can see Tomoyo/Kotomi and maybe Nagisa outrunning any MSLN and Higurashi character by far except Fate.

Other than Clannad, MSLN and Higurashi I only see Horo to have a reasonable chance for advancing further, but that has already mentioned several times in this thread.

if history tell us anything is that KEY characters don't get very far in Saimoe. I really don't see a anti-kyoani on 2chan but i do see a definte anti-Key faction.

[Kagedanji]

Hoping for Yomiko Readman. The only reason she isn't in just HAS to be that no one's watched R.O.D. OVA.

Spoiler:

[Fynal_Fyre]

Originally Posted by wontaek

The biggest variable is how much banning will there be in Saimoe2008. I know that there is a fan club of Hitman Reborn that boosts of more than 1,000 member which became very active in various moe tournaments recently, and another fan club of similar number for the Gintama that became arch-rival of the Hitman group in these moe tournaments in Korea. There also is a smaller, but just as rabid fan club for Code Geass as well. These groups have openly vowed to dominate any moe tournament they can find, which would mean hundreds of votes for any character that appeared in REborn, Code Geass, or Gintama series coming from Korea, which translates to Saimoe actively banning most outside-Japan votes almost from the start. How the ban will be handled will decide majority of the matches as they could easily ban any region not voting the way they want, while allowing the votes from region that have the preference they desire.

I could understand Code Geass, somewhat.

But rabid Hitman reborn and Gintama fans overrunning Moe tourneys?

This is terrible, time to rally the fan groups for the established factions, now THAT'D be more exciting.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Kagedanji

Hoping for Yomiko Readman. The only reason she isn't in just HAS to be that no one's watched R.O.D. OVA.

Spoiler:

Yomiko is not eligible because ROB is not eligible due to the fact that it was boardcast form 06/07 to 06/08.

[qtipbrit]

Originally Posted by Deathkillz

Well what you think is moe isn't what others think. Series popularity also plays a hand I agree, but it's not the only reason (a necessary but not sufficient condition to fulfill because popularity gets them noticed). Take a step into the CG forum and browse around the romance thread, apparently a lot of people finds the cast moe (including me...honestly, I still can't get Nanali's "NYAAAAAAA~" out of my head ).

Step into any forum and its people will tell you its characters are moe.
I sort of agree that Nunally was moe, but only because she was surrounded by general un-moeness. I must say that she was the second most moe thing in the show (the first being the reappearing Pizza Hut logo.), but lead character and romantic partner C.C. was the one Code Geass character to progress to the second round (and no further.)

Originally Posted by Deathkillz

Ahh...but whilst some can see through that, others got fanboy behind her thinking that she is the "real stuff".

Tsukasa fans would surely argue about the "fake" part

Tsukasa fans argue everything.

And yes, fanboys are generally unintelligent.
If Shana turned out to be fake moe, I would deny it because of my fanboy loyalty or whatnot.

Originally Posted by Deathkillz

edit:

Rozen maiden is VERY popular in Japan likewise with Nanoha...why do you suppose they are always at the center of attention in Saimoe?

I understand that Rozen Maiden has achieved some level of popularity in Japan, and I'm not as sure, but Nanoha as well, but it's not nearly on the level of phenomenon like Code Geass or Haruhi.

Originally Posted by Daniel E.

Does it really matters wich one is more popular? a lot of characters rely on series mojo to move forward on the earlier rounds, and that's the simple truth of it.

Wow, I only said so because:

Originally Posted by Daniel E.

You could say the same thing for pretty much all the characters from popular shows in this competition.

Originally Posted by Daniel E.

Saimoe says many things, even so, it never told me that Rika was gonna end up as the winner of the 2007 edition.

She wouldn't have if it wasn't for the foreign votes. Higurashi was and is still much more popular that Hayate outside of Japan.

Originally Posted by Eisdrache

It seems that qtipbrit92 is similar to anti-kyoani what a certain person was to L*S.

Yup. I'll probably change that for SaiMoe though, since the main reason I am is because of ISML's general saturation with KyoAni voters, whereas Japan is generally anti-Key.

Actually no, since I said I'd have to take back what I said if they top 8 a character.

Originally Posted by Eisdrache

If they end in somewhat similar strong groups I can see Tomoyo/Kotomi and maybe Nagisa outrunning any MSLN and Higurashi character by far except Fate.

You may be forgetting that Key is heavily hate-voted in Japan, though they did get Sayuri into the top 16 last year (not high either, it was 14-16th).

Originally Posted by Eisdrache

Other than Clannad, MSLN and Higurashi I only see Horo to have a reasonable chance for advancing further, but that has already mentioned several times in this thread.

mmm... I have to wonder how popular Spice and Wolf is in Japan. Outside it's quite well-known, but we account for maybe 10-20% of the votes in SaiMoe, so Japan obviously has more impact.
Depending on the level of hatevoting against Nanoha and Higurashi, they could be early dropouts. Rozen Maiden finally being out should change the whole contest though, so in all honesty, Clannad might have a chance this year.

Originally Posted by KholdStare

What, Japan doesn't like Hinagiku?

Nah, she won Korean Best '07 (and beat Shana) and was top 8 in Super Best.

Now that I think back a bit, I shouldn't have said that about Clannad without Rozen Maiden in the tournament. The main reason KyoAni only top 8'd two characters in 2005-2006 was because of Rozen Maiden and Nanoha, and the hate grew in 2007, letting two Lucky Starers and a Kanon girl to slide into the top 16.
Here's hoping that Hayate, Higurashi, and Nanoha (and Shana) receiving little hate, and if possible, a new dark horse moe series to appear.
Or Hidamari Sketch's sequel could let Yuno or Miyako try something.

Originally Posted by Fynal_Fyre

I could understand Code Geass, somewhat.

But rabid Hitman reborn and Gintama fans overrunning Moe tourneys?

This is terrible, time to rally the fan groups for the established factions, now THAT'D be more exciting.

Originally Posted by Fynal_Fyre

I could understand Code Geass, somewhat.

But rabid Hitman reborn and Gintama fans overrunning Moe tourneys?

This is terrible, time to rally the fan groups for the established factions, now THAT'D be more exciting.

Eh, Code Geass is fine, one character out of like 10 (exaggeration, I don't remember, but it was a good amount.) progressed past the first round and stopped at the second.
Gah, I forgot that Hitman Reborn and Gintama were popular in Japan.
I doubt they'll get far even if they really do have 1000-person fan clubs though, since they'll gain so much hate when people catch onto it.

[Fynal_Fyre]

Granted, true, that Code Geass has roughly one Moe character out of ten, the one that can come most quickly to mind being C.C.

But forget not that it's somewhat of a phenomenon in Japan, and relatively popular outside of it. And given fanboys, it won't matter if it's one out of ten.

Same goes for Hitman Reborn! and Gintama, which is why the powers of Saimoe need to take a stand, like the legions behind Nanoha ^^.

[qtipbrit]

Originally Posted by Fynal_Fyre

Granted, true, that Code Geass has roughly one Moe character out of ten, the one that can come most quickly to mind being C.C.

But forget not that it's somewhat of a phenomenon in Japan, and relatively popular outside of it. And given fanboys, it won't matter if it's one out of ten.

But still, Japan's SaiMoe isn't based purely on popularity alone. A moe character from an unpopular series will progress further than an unmoe character from something as popular as Code Geass, but a popular moe character will win the tournament.
The stats were from 2007's SaiMoe, so I'm hoping that it will just repeat itself with several round one Code Geass dropouts, but seeing as Code Geass is currently airing, it'll finish when SaiMoe begins, so it'll be fresher in inexperienced (in terms of SaiMoe character knowledge) voters' minds.

Originally Posted by Fynal_Fyre

Same goes for Hitman Reborn! and Gintama, which is why the powers of Saimoe need to take a stand, like the legions behind Nanoha ^^.

Yeah, hopefully, foreign votes will make a difference, since both are relatively unpopular outside of Japan, and let's all hope people don't hate on Nanoha just because she has boobs now. (at least she lost to Rena last year and not someone like Tsukasa.)

EDIT: Luckily, we're discussing the early rounds of SaiMoe as opposed to 2007's top 16. Last time I went over it, I was in despair.
EDIT2: Whoops

Originally Posted by Deathkillz

And have you looked into the brackets?

Yes, as I said, C.C. was the only one to progress past the first round, and stop at the second.
I'm going to go lurk for more early SaiMoe '07 brackets to see how many Code Geass characters there were, since I forget.
EDIT3: Wow, cruising through early SaiMoe '07 matches reminds me that I remember like 5 of them.
And Hina was the one that prevent Jun Watarase from progressing.

[Ithekro]

One wonders how the Rozen Maiden factions will vote this year. They've had a notorious voting record so far. And last year their top three were defeated by: Louise (Gin), Tsukasa (Desu), and Rika (Shinku). (I doubt Sou's match was as highly rated even if she made it runner up in 2005).

That random factor may change the dynamic a bit after the last three years.

Rika may have an advantage again with her being in a third season (OVA) show during Saimoe, while any Haruhi types that get in may benefit from the second season of Haruhi, but estimates place that at October, so far too late for most matches. The Clannad girls may also gain an advantage if After Story starts before Haruhi (plus an OVA in June I believe).

This will be Eva's first Saimoe showing. The NERV group may make itself a contender since some of their moe types have done well in past years.

Shana will be every present unless she runs into one of those heavy hitters three blocks early on (say Fate, Kyou, and Shana in Round One). Or the worse four spot round one fight (Shana, Fate, Kyou, Rika)

[wontaek]

Originally Posted by qtipbrit92

Yeah, hopefully, foreign votes will make a difference, since both are relatively unpopular outside of Japan, and let's all hope people don't hate on Nanoha just because she has boobs now. (at least she lost to Rena last year and not someone like Tsukasa.)

I believe many of you misunderstood me. The 1,000+ Rabid Fan clubs are all purely Korean Fan Clubs. Hitman Reborn, Gintama, and Code Geass series are extremely popular with KOREAN FEMALE population. The problem is that these mostly-female fan clubs decided that they will support their favorite anime series by voting for any character from these in any moe tournament that appears in their radar. Since Japanese Saimoe is progenitor of these moe tournament, these fan clubs know about it well. The question is whether or not they decide to mobilize their immense MONETARY resources to vote in Japanese Saimoe. I know that if one of three fan club does decide to invest in the Saimoe, others will follow. It won't be more than an hour before Japanese Saimoe organizers will catch huge spike in voting for specific characters coming from Korea, and will decide to let it in unhindered if it is against someone they want to eliminate, or decide to ban all voting from Korea and some part of USA where these fan clubs have presence among Koreans residing in USA if it is against someone they hope to win. These fan clubs will become a perfect tool for the Saimoe organizer to manipulate the result in anyway they want to, IF they choose to do so.