Fansubban VS CrunchRoll Subz

[pichu]

Overview OF fansubban process:

1. [Translation] -> Translation Check -> Editing -> Timing -> Editing/Quality Checking

2. [Songs Translation/Transcriptions] -> Songs Check -> Editing -> Timing -> Karaoke Effects

3. [Signs Translation] -> Editing/Checking -> 1. Notes OR 2. Signs Typesetting

1+2+3 -> Encode -> RCQC -> Apply -> Repeat

Frontend CrunchyRoll Releases

A. Translation
B. Timed
C. Translation Notes
D. Encoded
E. Streams

Comparisons

Category	Fansubban	Crunchy Roll
Official Distributions	Torrents IRC Direct HTTP/FTP Downloads	Only FLV Streaming.
Visual Qualities	It varies from groups to groups. Most distribute from SD (640X480+) to HD (1920X1080)	Guests are LQ, Paid memberships are HD (1280X720)
Availabilities	It varies from groups to groups. Speedsubban tries to make it available within 12 hours, and HQ groups range from 3-7 days depending on the group.	Guests/Free memberships have to wait for a week. Paid member can see the video as soon as it's released, usually within a day.
Legalities	Licensed shows are illegal. Fansubban has been criticized to be illegal from Japan.	Perfectly legit. They have contacts with the actual Japanese broadcast stations
Visual Styles	It varies from groups to groups. Some are easy to read than another.	Plain and simple. (white on black, san serif font)
Visual Typesetting	It varies from subbers to subbers. Some releases have them completely blended in the actual video.	Minimal if not NONE.

I can be wrong in the above table, since I only watched an episode or two of CR releases, so I can't be the judge. What I'm interested is which other aspect that they are more superior and inferior than what we're doing? For example, translation, editing, timing, and perhaps encoding...

[bayoab]

Couple modifications to your chart:
Guests get either HQ FLV or H.264 streaming on the default load on most shows. They cannot click on those tabs though. (Go figure on that).

There are some releases (mostly the newer Gonzo ones) that have a mehly encoded SD Xvid copy available for DTO too.

Crunchyroll does have an editing process since some (all?) of the subtitles have to be approved by the licensor.

[Bot1]

it should also be pointed out that a large part of it can only be viewed in America

[dj_tjerk]

I'm not a legal student and I already forgot what I once read about this stuff, but isn't subtitling in general illegal if you don't own the rights? I don't think licensed/unlicensed makes the difference between illegal/legal (I remember a dutch subtitle site for movie subtitles hosted in the netherlands having been shut down; it moved to a US server iirc). Downloading is a different story of course.

Of course, there are those situations which might not be illegal; like subtitling it for yourself and not distributing it. I also wonder if the related laws differ between countries.

In any case, supposedly I am allowed to download (NOT upload) videos from crunchyroll and watch them; I'm even allowed to download (again, NOT upload) a rip I didnt pay for. And as far as I know, a lot is allowed when you do it for personal use only (like downloading a raw, ripping/remuxing subtitles from crunchyroll and watching it?)

[Schneizel]

Have you ever used their services yourself, pichu?

Visual Qualities It varies from groups to groups. Most distribute from SD (640X480+) to HD (1920X1080) Guests are LQ, Paid memberships are HD (1280X720)

Resolution is all that counts for visual quality? You're leaving out that many of Crunchy's videos aren't decimated properly. Hi Skip Beat.

[jfs]

Originally Posted by dj_tjerk

I'm not a legal student and I already forgot what I once read about this stuff, but isn't subtitling in general illegal if you don't own the rights?

The right of translation is one that can be protected in implementing the Berne convention. The right of translation isn't protected everywhere, but AFAIK it is in most places. (I haven't confirmed it but I think Japan is one of the places it is not protected.)
Synchronising something to an original audio track might also be a protected right. (This covers timing dialogue to the speech, or timing karaoke lyrics.)
Assuming those two rights are not protected, you can distribute a clean subtitle file without infringing upon anyone. But remember it's your local law that's in effect.

As soon as you distribute the original video and/or audio track, or a modified version of them, you're clearly infringing upon rights however. You're either distributing copyrighted material without permission, or you're creating a derivative work without permission.

Fansubbing is generally only non-illegal if where ever you live doesn't implement the Berne convention.

Also IANALE.

[False Dawn]

Oddly, while producing fansubbing scripts is completely illegal (licensed or otherwise), it would also be illegal for the anime companies to steal fansubbed scripts and distribute them as their own because the translation in itself becomes intellectual property. I don't think many people would try to fight either battle though.

[Access]

I think you're overstating the technical aspects. To many fans, it's the shows themselves. There are people who will say "This is better / legal, therefore we don't need that anymore" but the reality is that if a show you want to see is only available on that, then that will have to do, and vice versa.

Whatever _that_ ends up being, it's really beside the point. A show either ends up licensed or not, and sadly there is not a whole lot fans can do to influence that.

[JediNight]

I think there's definitely a slippery slope going on now. Where at first people in general said fansubs are still okay, because you can't get the shows at the same time in English. Whereas now there ARE legal same-day subbed episodes .... but now people complain that the "quality isn't good enough" as the excuse as to why.

IMHO compared to early digital encodes and some tapesubs, the current stream quality isn't really bad at all. I would just like the ability on CR to change the font/size or position on the video. They tend to make the subs huge and too high vertically on the video, so it ends up covering a large amount.

[neothe0ne]

Originally Posted by JediNight

I think there's definitely a slippery slope going on now. Where at first people in general said fansubs are still okay, because you can't get the shows at the same time in English. Whereas now there ARE legal same-day subbed episodes .... but now people complain that the "quality isn't good enough" as the excuse as to why.

IMHO compared to early digital encodes and some tapesubs, the current stream quality isn't really bad at all. I would just like the ability on CR to change the font/size or position on the video. They tend to make the subs huge and too high vertically on the video, so it ends up covering a large amount.

I've said this before and I'll say it again, I like to watch videos, not slideshows. If someone can't produce a proper framerate they have no business encoding for profit (or for free really).

[Scab]

Slippery slope or not, these services are still (1) not global (2) not universally providing downloadable versions (3) have far fewer shows on offer than what's available fansubbed. You can't beat the illegal option by offering something that's perceived as an inferior product, end of story. Whatever your moral view on all this is, that's reality. If the customer is more limited in what he can do than the pirate, your service has failed. Comparing these streams to the digisubs and tapesubs of many years ago is sort of telling in this regard...

These sites are nowhere near replacing fansubs and in all likelihood won't be until they offer something that the fansubs don't. Financial support for the production group/studio is one such thing that's probably driving a lot of people to them right now, but the actual service needs to improve as well or it won't catch on. If Crunchyroll and the others are satisfied with the sort of userbases they have I guess that's all good; these services work for those people. But in their current state they'll hardly wipe fansubs off the map.

[dj_tjerk]

That's why I want a donate button to support animators/staff directly (and still be able to watch fansubs)

[Craymel]

Originally Posted by dj_tjerk

That's why I want a donate button to support animators/staff directly (and still be able to watch fansubs)

Don't you mean a "pay for" button

[npcomplete]

Originally Posted by Craymel

Don't you mean a "pay for" button

but with a "pay for" button, most of that $$ is wasted on the entire corporate infrastructure involved. Like many businesses with lots of layers of management, business entities and corporate investment--to whom these shows are merely assets in their portfolio and nothing more--most of the total money spent does not go back to the creators. Even within a single business entity there can be too many layers/divisions that money gets wasted on. This is why you see many music artists start to go the self-publishing route now (utilizing others' services but retaining their own rights).

[Quarkboy]

Originally Posted by npcomplete

but with a "pay for" button, most of that $$ is wasted on the entire corporate infrastructure involved. Like many businesses with lots of layers of management, business entities and corporate investment--to whom these shows are merely assets in their portfolio and nothing more--most of the total money spent does not go back to the creators. Even within a single business entity there can be too many layers/divisions that money gets wasted on. This is why you see many music artists start to go the self-publishing route now (utilizing others' services but retaining their own rights).

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that anime is created by a group of artists only.

You think the corporate structure of R1 companies is bad? Try the production committees of your average anime. Normally 3-5 different companies all fund the project.

The money from things like licensing fees and sales revenue doesn't even go to the artists or the creators themselves hardly at all. It goes to the companies who fronted the money to make the show in the first place as return on their investment. The animators are just salaried employees, and the other creators like the directors are generally also just paid flat sums and don't get a cut of the profits.

Sure, of course, it's important for Lantis and Bandai and the other corporate sponsers to make lots of money on anime they fund, because that'll mean the decide to fund more anime in the future, and thus more work for the creators. But don't be naive and think that when you purchase an R2 DVD that some animator somewhere gets a percentage of it, because they don't.

[npcomplete]

Originally Posted by Quarkboy

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that anime is created by a group of artists only.

You think the corporate structure of R1 companies is bad? Try the production committees of your average anime. Normally 3-5 different companies all fund the project.

The money from things like licensing fees and sales revenue doesn't even go to the artists or the creators themselves hardly at all. It goes to the companies who fronted the money to make the show in the first place as return on their investment. The animators are just salaried employees, and the other creators like the directors are generally also just paid flat sums and don't get a cut of the profits.

Sure, of course, it's important for Lantis and Bandai and the other corporate sponsers to make lots of money on anime they fund, because that'll mean the decide to fund more anime in the future, and thus more work for the creators. But don't be naive and think that when you purchase an R2 DVD that some animator somewhere gets a percentage of it, because they don't.

You misunderstand me. That's exactly what I mean and that's exactly what's wrong with the picture. I wasn't referring specifically to the R1 industry but the industry as a whole.

[Haruyan]

Guests/Free memberships have to wait for a week. Paid member can see the video as soon as it's released, usually within a day.

You forgot that some if it is not available to watch anywhere else but the US (Kaleido Star)

[windstar!~]

Crunchyroll is an absolute waste of money, the translations might be good - the rest is utter crap though.

[DragoZERO]

The site design is horrible and you are given little flexibility in your viewing options. Hulu is the ideal platform - let's you invert the color scheme as you watch, pop out a window which you can resize on your own (full screen may ruin video quality depending on who it is) and.. it is free.

Crunchyroll is just bad, period.

[Craymel]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

The site design is horrible and you are given little flexibility in your viewing options. Hulu is the ideal platform - let's you invert the color scheme as you watch, pop out a window which you can resize on your own (full screen may ruin video quality depending on who it is) and.. it is free.

Crunchyroll is just bad, period.

Although Hulu is also only available in the states. Although it is a better site.