Madoka Magica - Episode 10 Discussion / Poll

[creb]

Originally Posted by Hagoshod

The only thing I can think of that would be rage-inducing about this ending is the possibility of Madoka getting all blubbery over Homura's sacrifice and making the same wish Homura made, restarting the entire futile loop. I hope Urobuchi is going to give an actual ending to all of this.

This was actually my first thought when I finished watching this episode.

It'd be one hell of a trollish way to end the show.

Anyways, if we believe he's not mean enough to troll us with the ending, then I think the money is on them somehow defeating the entire system itself. That's the only way Madoka's wish is going to be realized.

Any other ending is going to be pointless; of course there's value in that as well, in ending a show in utter despair.

How we get to the system being destroyed...well, I really have no clue. You want to always turn to Madoka's wish and what it might be in this timeline if she was to go Magical Girl. It's a cheap, cheap way of beating the system, especially since I have strong doubts QB would actually grant a wish to he knew would destroy the system completely. His granting of that wish to Homura he did because, at worst, he'd replace on girl for another (there was nothing special about Madoka in that timeline).

Because the "Madoka's wish will be central to destroying the system" is both cheap and non-sensical, I have to believe there's another path. I just don't see it.

You know, after writing all that and not seeing a sensible way out for Homura/Madoka that doesn't involve her using a wish and QB willingly granting it, I'm starting to lean more and more to the trollish ending where it all repeats.

I guess we'll know in two weeks! Maybe one, depending on how much plot is covered next week!

[DasDingus]

Wow. That was something, wasn't it?

We know that Madoka's death = reset and Madoka becoming a witch = reset. At this point those are the only possible fates for a MG so Madoka contracting with Kyubey by definition necessitates a reset. It would seem the only way to end this is to defeat the Walpurgis without Madoka or to make Madoka into a MG who doesn't follow the rules as we know them. I just hope they don't use some kind of deus ex machina to achieve that.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I disagree.

Somewhat ironically, I'll admit, I think that what Kyubey is doing is evil. He's basically setting all of humanity up for genocide.

That's evil.

I would agree if his goal was human genocide, but it is not. He just wants to collect energy. He could care less whether or not humans as a race survive despite what he seemed to imply last episode. I would compare his view on humans in regard to collecting energy to Abraham Lincoln's view on slavery in regard to saving the union:

Originally Posted by Lincoln

If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that.

For him to be evil (by my definition) he would have to desire the pain and suffering of sentient beings that did him no harm. Instead he is indifferent to their suffering which is obviously not desirable but I wouldn't go so far as to call him evil. But that's just semantics, he needs to be stopped regardless.

[FlavorOfLife]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I can think of some extreme ways that might work (kidnap Madoka on Day 1, drag her out of the country, hope the other magical girls can handle Walpurgis Night on their own), but anything more straightforward is tricky.

Not a good idea. Kyubei can teleport in and has shown an ability to track Madoka. Losing Madoka's trust = she will make that wish

[Shinndou]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I can think of some extreme ways that might work (kidnap Madoka on Day 1, drag her out of the country, hope the other magical girls can handle Walpurgis Night on their own), but anything more straightforward is tricky.

I don't know, I doubt kidnapping would work. If QB is able to sense "power" from young teen age girls he should be able to track down Madoka and atleast offer her freedom in exchange for becoming a MG. However, it also true at this point that Madoka should be aware of the fact that MGs will turn into witches, and likely she won't blindly trust Kyuubee unless an even more tragic event occurs (her family being involved, for instance) which could basically force her into making a contract despite being partially aware of her fate.

[kk2extreme]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

Would not work. Kyubey would not grant it if it destroyed his Grief Seed harvest, just like he wouldn't turn Sayaka back to normal even though Madoka was willing to become a Puella Magi for it.

That was the basic idea, but you have to trick kyubei into granting that wish, which is next to impossible

[Kismet-chan]

Originally Posted by Shinndou

I've been reflecting on the last lines Homura says at the end of the episode, saying "there's only one way"... what if ironically the only "certain" way to prevent all the events that occur would be to simply kill Madoka?

As absurd as it may sound, having tried countless times to save Madoka she might soon reach that conclusion.

I actually like that theory. It would be sad, it would seem cruel, but in all honesty, it would solve things.

"Sometimes you must destroy the things you love in order to protect them."

Yeah, I could see an ending like that... as depressing as it would be. XD

[HandofFate]

damn...@ episode 10

To be honest, I guessed the main beef of everything this episode finally confirmed.
But the pacing and info. of the whole episode was done very well. We saw like what? 4-5 timeline repeats there.

Poor Kyoko getting sucker-shot by Mami. Serves her right for being eaten later on in this current time-line.

I feel bad for Homura. Why don't characters never believe the time traveler when they go "i'm from the future, listen to me"

imo, Homura should try to make it so all the magical girls live to the end to fight the Wulparis Night. Its practically a full sentai team already.

Red = Kyoko
Blue = Sayaka
Yellow = Mami
Pink = Madoka
Black? = Homura

[kk2extreme]

Originally Posted by Kismet-chan

I actually like that theory. It would be sad, it would seem cruel, but in all honesty, it would solve things.

"Sometimes you must destroy the things you love in order to protect them."

Yeah, I could see an ending like that... as depressing as it would be. XD

Even without Madoka, there are other innocent girls for QB to pick from

[Raiza Sunozaki]

Originally Posted by Edict

depends entirely on what you mean by "good and evil", if assuming the essential concepts they cannot be criticised as false on the basis of false justifications.

The essential concepts have no weight, it's simply what society agrees and disagrees with at a certain time. If society needs to do something which may be considered "evil," then they'll justify it under a "good" cause. Regardless of whether it's a proper justification or a false one, they still have taken something they regard as evil, and are now supporting it as something good.
It's not the essential concepts of good and evil I have a problem with. It's the humans who change them to suit their own needs which bother me. So I just don't consider things good or evil. Saves me the trouble of working out what I think is right or wrong.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Shinndou

I don't know, I doubt kidnapping would work. If QB is able to sense "power" from young teen age girls he should be able to track down Madoka and atleast offer her freedom in exchange for becoming a MG. However, it also true at this point that Madoka should be aware of the fact that MGs will turn into witches, and likely she won't blindly trust Kyuubee unless an even more tragic event occurs (her family being involved, for instance) which could basically force her into making a contract despite being partially aware of her fate.

In this timeline (Timeline 5), it now all hinges on Homura finding a way to beat Walpurgis Night on her own. Otherwise, who knows...

Originally Posted by Kismet-chan

I actually like that theory. It would be sad, it would seem cruel, but in all honesty, it would solve things.

"Sometimes you must destroy the things you love in order to protect them."

Yeah, I could see an ending like that... as depressing as it would be. XD

That ending wouldn't fit, in my opinion. Homura's already killed Madoka once (Timeline 3). If that doesn't end the time-looping, then clearly breaking it requires Madoka to live and not become a witch, imo.

Also, I'd find it pretty sad if this ends on a time-loop worse than the original.

In the original timeline, Madoka and Mami die as heroes, and Sayaka and Kyoko are nowhere to be found (maybe they never even became magical girls in the first timeline; bonus for both of them).

As much as I like Homura, I find it sad that Timeline 1 arguably has the best end so far...

[kk2extreme]

Originally Posted by HandofFate

damn...@ episode 10

imo, Homura should try to make it so all the magical girls live to the end to fight the Wulparis Night. Its practically a full sentai team already.

Red = Kyoko
Blue = Sayaka
Yellow = Mami
Pink = Madoka
Black? = Homura

I like that

[taofd]

Originally Posted by FlavorOfLife

Well there goes another one who believes Kyubei's "one day you'll join us in space too!", "Its to your advantage too!" speech

No, I'm just pointing out the fallacies to your logic. You selectively choose what you want to believe, and when I ask you to define your logic, all you can come up with is "gut feeling".

[Shinndou]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

That ending wouldn't fit, in my opinion. Homura's already killed Madoka once (Timeline 3). If that doesn't end the time-looping, then clearly breaking it requires Madoka to live and not become a witch, imo.

Oh well, I guess in the end things will likely go along that path (Homura trying to prevent Madoka from becoming a MG and keeping her alive at the same time).

One thing that could be really helpful in finding out how to achieve that would be to know what parameters determine a girl's "potential". Is it the scope of a girl's ambition/dreams? Their good will (meaning the kinder/purer they are as a MG the more evil they'll be once they turn into witches)?

If Homura could find a way to get rid of that "potential" that makes Madoka the best candidate then it could likely solve the issue, given that Kyuubee is only interested in energy and wouldn't care about Madoka anymore if she were to lose the amazing "magical power" that she has stored within herself.

[creb]

Btw, I wonder what makes Walpurgis Night so special that it actually affects the real world in its destructive rampage.

The city looks pretty messed up, after each time they fought it, even after Madoka beat it in one hit. I almost thought the city being destroyed was all Madoka, except it looks pretty destroyed in all the previous timelines as well.

[Edict]

Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki

The essential concepts have no weight, it's simply what society agrees and disagrees with at a certain time.

this is equivalent to claiming that because persons lie, there is no truth to be told.

[Raiza Sunozaki]

Originally Posted by creb

Btw, I wonder what makes Walpurgis Night so special that it actually affects the real world in its destructive rampage.

The city looks pretty messed up, after each time they fought it, even after Madoka beat it in one hit. I almost thought the city being destroyed was all Madoka, except it looks pretty destroyed in all the previous timelines as well.

I think it out like this: Exceptionally powerful Mahou Shoujo (like Madoka) can affect even reality with their range of their powers, right? I'm assuming that power also remains when they go Witch... in the form of pure absolute destruction.
Which, if you ask me, is exactly what looks like what happens in the city after Walpurgis Night.
So if you ask me, Walpurgis must be a Witch on a similar (but still inferior) power-level to Madoka, and therefore, can directly influence reality.

[FlavorOfLife]

Originally Posted by taofd

No, I'm just pointing out the fallacies to your logic. You selectively choose what you want to believe, and when I ask you to define your logic, all you can come up with is "gut feeling".

Please do quote where i said "gut feeling" anywhere. If you cannot, then i'm sorry to say you've proven yourself as a sufferer of very poor logic and memory

[Raiza Sunozaki]

Originally Posted by Edict

this is equivalent to claiming that because persons lie, there is no truth to be told.

Truth is weightless as well. What is truth? What a majority of society determines to be true. Think back to when everyone thought the Earth was flat. Sure, they were wrong, but to them, that was the truth. Perhaps much of what we believe to be true about this world will turn out to be false in the future as well.
If you lie, and enough people believe you, your lie becomes a truth. Lies and truth are one in the same. The only difference is the number of people who believe in them.
This is getting ridiculously derailed though. What you're doing now is just pointing out the various flaws in the philosophy I believe in.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki

Truth is weightless as well. What is truth? What a majority of society determines to be true. Think back to when everyone thought the Earth was flat. Sure, they were wrong, but to them, that was the truth. Perhaps much of what we believe to be true about this world will turn out to be false in the future as well.
If you lie, and enough people believe you, your lie becomes a truth. Lies and truth are one in the same. The only difference is the number of people who believe in them.
This is getting ridiculously derailed though. What you're doing now is just pointing out the various flaws in the philosophy I believe in.

There is such a thing as objective truth.

2 + 2 = 4

Objective truth.

There's a lot of flaws in your philosophy, imo. I personally disagree with it totally. I think that there is such a thing as good and evil.

[Raiza Sunozaki]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

There is such a thing as objective truth. 2 + 2 = 4

2 + 2 = 6.
Anything wrong with that?

It's fine if people disagree with my philosophy. I don't expect many people to agree with it in the first place.
Just, this is a Madoka discussion thread. If people want to argue it with me, I love to argue it back with them.
This just isn't really the place.