Gundam Seed/Seed Destiny General Discussion Thread

[shadow1296]

Originally Posted by monster

Yes, and the cherry on top is by killing Flay. Or maybe that's the cake because, aside from her, the only other people Rau killed in that episode were regular Earth/TSA pilots. That's no more evil (by conventional war standard) than what everyone else were doing, aside from the people operating the nuclear missiles/GENESIS.

that's not a good thing, its over stating a fact that the viewer already knows and starts to get to a point where its like "we get it he's evil and needs to die", and also like i said you can take flays death out of the episode entirely and the episode would run the exact same since after flays death and newtype ghost scene its not brought up again at all that episode

[monster]

Originally Posted by shadow1296

that's not a good thing, its over stating a fact that the viewer already knows and starts to get to a point where its like "we get it he's evil and needs to die", and also like i said you can take flays death out of the episode entirely and the episode would run the exact same since after flays death and newtype ghost scene its not brought up again at all that episode

It has nothing to do with the viewer knowing Rau has to be killed. It has everything to do with Kira.

[shadow1296]

Originally Posted by monster

It has nothing to do with the viewer. It has everything to do with Kira.

like i said remove the death and the rest of the episode would happened the exact same, flay is again not mentioned by either kira nor is the lifeboat mentioned by Rau to torment kira, the providence is crippling the Eternal before next time we see kira come save it in seed mode, y'know the ship with lacus on it

[monster]

Originally Posted by shadow1296

like i said remove the death and the rest of the episode would happened the exact same, flay is again not mentioned by either kira nor is the lifeboat mentioned by Rau to torment kira, the providence is crippling the Eternal before next time we see kira come save it in seed mode, y'know the ship with lacus on it

And how was Rau able to go to the Eternal? Oh, that's right, because he killed Flay, leaving Kira distracted and him free to go to where Lacus was.

[shadow1296]

Originally Posted by monster

And how was Rau able to go to the Eternal? Oh, that's right, because he killed Flay, leaving Kira distracted and him free to go to where Lacus was.

and you can change it to where he used the dragoons to distract kira which allowed him to escape and attack the eternal, works the same way because kira was getting beat up because of the dragoons before he entered seed mode and lost the freedom's attachment weapons

[monster]

Originally Posted by shadow1296

and you can change it to where he used the dragoons to distract kira which allowed him to escape and attack the eternal, works the same way because kira was getting a beat up because of the dragoons before he entered seed mode

So first you say Kira doesn't need "revenge SEED" to beat Rau, and now you think DRAGOONs are going to be enough to distract him long enough to let Rau get away. That doesn't make any sense.

You do realize that Rau has to collect his DRAGOONs, right? And while Kira was getting beaten up, the Freedom itself was largely intact when Rau left after killing Flay.

[shadow1296]

Originally Posted by monster

So first you say Kira doesn't need "revenge SEED" to beat Rau, and now you think DRAGOONs are going to be enough to distract him long enough to let Rau get away. That doesn't make any sense.

I said "Revenge Seed Mode" was not needed, I never said Seed Mode was not needed, which again kira did not use until after flay died and it was revenge seed mode which he used

You do realize that Rau has to collect his DRAGOONs, right? And while Kira was getting beaten up, the Freedom itself was largely intact when Rau left after killing Flay.

when did it ever say he needs to collect them the providence has eleven of them with each being able as assault beam Rifles when detached leaving two or three in Auto mode to attack kira would be more than enough to distract him long enough to rau to escape and attack the eternal, especially when you consider Kira hasn't entered seed mode yet

[monster]

Originally Posted by shadow1296

I said "Revenge Seed Mode" was not needed, I never said Seed Mode was not needed, which again kira did not use until after flay died and it was revenge seed mode which he used

I also said revenge SEED. Please read it again.

when did it ever say he needs to collect them the providence has eleven of them with each being able as assault beam Rifles when detached leaving two or three in Auto mode to attack kira would be more than enough to distract him long enough to rau to escape and attack the eternal, especially when you consider Kira hasn't entered seed mode yet

You're kidding, right? So you expect Rau to just throw away some of his DRAGOONs? Also, they're controlled by the Providence. Move far away from the Providence, and they'll likely be useless.

[shadow1296]

Originally Posted by monster

I also said revenge SEED. Please read it again. You're kidding, right? So you expect Rau to just throw away some of his DRAGOONs? Also, they're controlled by the Providence. Move far away from the Providence, and they'll likely be useless.

okay, yes i do think that the dragoons are enough to distract kira since the full amount of dragoons weren't used to destroy the freedoms extra attachment and cripple the buster, only about half were deployed at the time and rau is smart enough to know that losing a few dragoons is an okay sacrifice as long as his goal is realised, and if the providence main body is needed to be in a certain range to control the dragoons then the point in which they stop working is when he has successfully escaped from kira and can attack the eternal for a short time until kira shows up again

[monster]

Originally Posted by shadow1296

okay, yes i do think that the dragoons are enough to distract kira since the full amount of dragoons weren't used to destroy the freedoms extra attachment and cripple the buster, only about half were deployed at the time and rau is smart enough to know that losing a few dragoons is an okay sacrifice as long as his goal is realised, and if the providence main body is needed to be in a certain range to control the dragoons then the point in which they stop working is when he has successfully escaped from kira and can attack the eternal for a short time until kira shows up again

My point is that the DRAGOONs are not effective as distractions as they do not run independently from the Providence.

Rau cannot run away while expecting his DRAGOONs to keep Kira busy. He has to be there to control the DRAGOONs. And as we can see, that's not an easy thing to do against Kira.

[shadow1296]

Originally Posted by monster

My point is that the DRAGOONs are not effective as distractions as they do not run independently from the Providence.

Rau cannot run away while expecting his DRAGOONs to keep Kira busy. He has to be there to control the DRAGOONs. And as we can see, that's not an easy thing to do against Kira.

actually from what i've read about them the dragoons are best used pilots who have great spacial awareness on a battlefield this allows the pilot to keep track of them on the battlefield without having to look at them so they don't collide with each other and zaft improved on this with quantum computers so all you need is good spacial awareness, something rau has through his many fight against Mu and his zero, so as long as he keeps those dragoons on kira or kira's general location until he escapes he can use them as a distraction

[monster]

Originally Posted by shadow1296

actually from what i've read about them the dragoons are best used pilots who have great spacial awareness on a battlefield this allows the pilot to keep track of them on the battlefield without having to look at them so they don't collide with each other and zaft improved on this with quantum computers so all you need is good spacial awareness, something rau has through his many fight against Mu and his zero, so as long as he keeps those dragoons on kira or kira's general location until he escapes he can use them as a distraction

A good spatial awareness doesn't do you much good when you're running away. You have to have your attention on the battlefield, especially against someone as skilled as Kira.

And again, you're still ignoring the fact that if Providence leaves even some of his DRAGOONs behind, they'll become useless, and now he has even less DRAGOONs when Kira catches up to him.

[shadow1296]

Originally Posted by monster

A good spatial awareness doesn't do you much good when you're running away. You have to have your attention on the battlefield, especially against someone as skilled as Kira.

okay well since nobody used the dragoons as a distraction in seed we will never actually know if they can but again the possibility still does exist though

And again, you're still ignoring the fact that if Providence leaves even some of his DRAGOONs behind, they'll become useless, and now he has even less DRAGOONs when Kira catches up to him.

again the providence has eleven dragoons and only about 6 were used to destroy the freedom's extra equipment while also crippling the buster aswell, so even if he loses 3 or 4 he has about 8 left to focus on kira when he catches up that is still a considerable amount

[monster]

Originally Posted by shadow1296

okay well since nobody used the dragoons as a distraction in seed we will never actually know if they can but again the possibility still does exist though

There's no reason to change a perfectly good scene on the basis of some possibility.

again the providence has eleven dragoons and only about 6 were used to destroy the freedom's extra equipment while also crippling the buster aswell, so even if he loses 3 or 4 he has about 8 left to focus on kira when he catches up that is still a considerable amount

Except the show already showed us what a "revenge-SEED" powered Kira can do against all 11 DRAGOONs.

And you think Kira doesn't even need to be powered by revenge to beat Rau. If that was the case, then 3/4/8 DRAGOONs will definitely not be enough.

[shadow1296]

Originally Posted by monster

There's no reason to change a perfectly good scene on the basis of some possibility.

since that possibility exist then there's a possibility that scene can change and that means it didn't have to follow that path and kill off flay

Except the show already showed us what a "revenge-SEED" powered Kira can do against all 11 DRAGOONs. And you think Kira doesn't even need to be powered by revenge to beat Rau. If that was the case, then 3/4/8 DRAGOONs will definitely not be enough.

Revenge seed mode is actually is more of a downgrade of normal because in revenge you are fighting with anger and can't really make clear and good judgement calls while fighting because you are fighting with anger, normal seed mode they are calmer more collected and can make clearer decisions, actually i don't think rau ever launched all of them at once, its possible he couldn't control all of them at once 6 was the most he could control while still being able to fight in the providence

[monster]

Originally Posted by shadow1296

since that possibility exist then there's a possibility that scene can change and that means it didn't have to follow that path and kill off flay

But there's no reason to. The original scene works as it is.

Revenge seed mode is actually is more of a downgrade of normal because in revenge you are fighting with anger and can't really make clear and good judgement calls while fighting because you are fighting with anger, normal seed mode they are calmer more collected and can make clearer decisions,

Only if you can't control the anger. Kira doesn't have that issue.

actually i don't think rau ever launched all of them at once, its possible he couldn't control all of them at once 6 was the most he could control while still being able to fight in the providence

He still has the use of all 11 at his disposal. Sacrificing some just to go away momentarily with no tangible benefit makes no sense at all.

[shadow1296]

Originally Posted by monster

But there's no reason to. The original scene works as it is.

It works at the cost of an interesting and well developed character

Only if you can't control the anger. Kira doesn't have that issue.

still he could've fought better in normal rather than revenge

He still has the use of all 11 at his disposal. Sacrificing some just to go away momentarily with no tangible benefit makes no sense at all.

actually the tangible benefit is taking out the eternal and the orb command ship, since they are the last enemy command vessels opposing the genesis, the Dominion is sunk and the Archangel is basicly out weapons that can really do any damage it used its last lohengrin charge to sink domininon, So all that's left is the eternal and the orb command ship, and tactically taking out the Eternal is smart because it would also take out lacus and her dying would demoralize all the soldiers who decided to follow her

[monster]

Originally Posted by shadow1296

It works at the cost of an interesting and well developed character

No, it works because of an interesting character.

still he could've fought better in normal rather than revenge

You don't know that.

actually the tangible benefit is taking out the eternal and the orb command ship, since they are the last enemy command vessels opposing the genesis, the Dominion is sunk and the Archangel is basicly out weapons that can really do any damage it used its last lohengrin charge to sink domininon, So all that's left is the eternal and the orb command ship, and tactically taking out the Eternal is smart because it would also take out lacus and her dying would demoralize all the soldiers who decided to follow her

It's not a tangible benefit when you're going with less weapons. It's a more tangible benefit with the way the episode went, with his full power.

[shadow1296]

Originally Posted by monster

No, it works because of an interesting character.

I say at the cost because if she had stayed alive they could have use a plot thread in destiny that they hinted might have happened in seed but never officially confirmed or not and would have been interesting actually because it would have been the first time sunrise has done it

You don't know that.

no i don't there is know real way to determine that since the next time he fights a mech like that is in the strike freedom which as a dragoon system of its own, he might've fought better he might not have

It's not a tangible benefit when you're going with less weapons. It's a more tangible benefit with the way the episode went, with his full power.

then the even more tangible benefit would have been to ignore the freedom completely and just attack the eternal and not waste energy on the freedom

[monster]

Originally Posted by shadow1296

I say at the cost because if she had stayed alive they could have use a plot thread in destiny that they hinted might have happened in seed but never officially confirmed or not and would have been interesting actually because it would have been the first time sunrise has done it

I don't think Destiny was even planned at this point. (Hence the problem with Neo.)

then the even more tangible benefit would have been to ignore the freedom completely and just attack the eternal and not waste energy on the freedom

The Freedom attacked him first. He didn't have a choice but to fight him off.