The AnimeSuki Forum Reputation System has been retired

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

You are taking the argument backwards: I do not say people reputation are dropping fast when they are opposed to high rep members.
However, the presence of high rep people in a given thread actually leads to a deterrent effect regarding certain debates.
Your own experience really has little relevancy in that part.

I think what he means is that he didn't get any less opponents when he became a heavy hitter himself compared to when he was a rookie, which, indeed, goes contrary to your claim. (Though of course one person's experience is at best anecdotal.)

I haven't noticed anything either, but then, I don't think I would have. I have to ask, though - was anyone among the big rep powers in the habit of negrepping dissenters?

[Klashikari]

I guess I should rephrase myself: in a context where the "positive" side is composed of high rep people, the "naysayer" (as some people love to call them) are basically cornered and I often see a drastic change of tone or decreasing activity.
Some of these people actually shared some of their concerns regarding that (one part being a "too positive" environnement, the other part being the rep matter). I surely can name at least 2-3 members, but I'm in no position to disclose such information, out of respect for their choice.

Funnily enough, when a high rep person is actually facing the "positive majority", they are fairly less subject to "retaliation".
Few observations with some of them sure indicate some different treatement, even within the same thread.

Also, yes, some high rep people did use negrep, but not in an abusive way (with few exceptions...), although it sure cut short some discussions.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

I think what he means is that he didn't get any less opponents when he became a heavy hitter himself compared to when he was a rookie, which, indeed, goes contrary to your claim. (Though of course one person's experience is at best anecdotal.)

Right, that's basically what I meant.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

I guess I should rephrase myself: in a context where the "positive" side is composed of high rep people, the "naysayer" (as some people love to call them) are basically cornered and I often see a drastic change of tone or decreasing activity.

By "positive" side and "naysayers", do you mean when it comes to pro-Anime Show X and anti-Anime Show X?

If so, I would argue that it's always been a bit harder for someone to be a critic here than a fan. But here I don't see much difference between AS, and ANN's forums, and MAL's forums. It's a rare anime show that has more critics than fans, in my experience.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

I guess I should rephrase myself: in a context where the "positive" side is composed of high rep people, the "naysayer" (as some people love to call them) are basically cornered and I often see a drastic change of tone or decreasing activity.

But is it because of all those green dots, or because high rep people tend to be veterans of internet debates who can and will take opposing posts apart in a variety of ways?

[NoemiChan]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

By "positive" side and "naysayers", do you mean when it comes to pro-Anime Show X and anti-Anime Show X?

Hah, just remember when I question a very famous female character's gender in her FORUM. I was bombed after 1 minute... that was so funny!

Avoid, battling on your enemies' home ground..

[Dextro]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

By "positive" side and "naysayers", do you mean when it comes to pro-Anime Show X and anti-Anime Show X?

If so, I would argue that it's always been a bit harder for someone to be a critic here than a fan. But here I don't see much difference between AS, and ANN's forums, and MAL's forums. It's a rare anime show that has more critics than fans, in my experience.

Usually people who dislike a show stop watching and hence stop commenting but yeah, I can still remember how I was received when I complained about the art in Sora-no-woto. For some reason the art in that show really bugged me.

I have however seen some strange cases of people who week after week complain endlessly about a show. I sometimes wonder why those people keep watching if they can come up with so much complaints in something they willingly watch week after week. I'm not talking about critiquing some segments, I'm talking about a complete dismissal of most of the show. It's really strange (at least to me).

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Dextro

I have however seen some strange cases of people who week after week complain endlessly about a show. I sometimes wonder why those people keep watching if they can come up with so much complaints in something they willingly watch week after week.

Well, sometimes they don't. I wonder what's worse? Watching a show you can only complain about, or complaining about a show you don't watch?

[hyl]

Originally Posted by Dextro

I have however seen some strange cases of people who week after week complain endlessly about a show. I sometimes wonder why those people keep watching if they can come up with so much complaints in something they willingly watch week after week. I'm not talking about critiquing some segments, I'm talking about a complete dismissal of most of the show. It's really strange (at least to me).

Depends on what kind of show. If that show happens to be an adaptation of something that they really liked, then i can understand why some people will be complaining about it and keep watching that show every week.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

But is it because of all those green dots, or because high rep people tend to be veterans of internet debates who can and will take opposing posts apart in a variety of ways?

Both. With specific members it is the latter, but there is a sizable amount of high rep that do not exactly play with debates and are "considered as a threat", rep wise.

Also, there are cases that even the absence of high rep "positive/defense" poster would lead to a deterrent.
Some did mention Gundam Age, which I can confirm: we did get many abusive negrep complaints, to which jaded some members on the short and mid term.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

But is it because of all those green dots, or because high rep people tend to be veterans of internet debates who can and will take opposing posts apart in a variety of ways?

I didn't really see such a strong correlation between green bars and being veterans of debate. Getting more rep did seem more correlated to how much a poster was liked and this might be due to how well they express themselves but it's much easier for someone that shares popular opinion to get repped more. In any case, I actually thought the best posters were on page 2-3 if you went order of rep though I guess there is somewhat of a tendency there.

Then again, it'd be pretty weak to stop posting thoughts due to being negged though, lol.

Also, you can be good at debate and be a complete dick too, and that usually doesn't make you very popular.

[NoemiChan]

Not all decorated members are good debaters....

[Dhomochevsky]

I can not vouch for the effect of bad rep, but I do know that 100% of what I got was from people simply disagreeing with what I wrote.
And instead of replying in with a post (or maybe in addition to, cant know that) they decide to write an often harsh, anonymous oneliner.

I guess this can be quite disheartening. I have several times thought about all the bad rep an opinion would get me before hitting 'post'. I guess you could have just disabled rep if you cared about that. But the messages would still have shown up on my user CP page (which I use to start my forum day).
Really anoying.

[hyl]

Negative rep was never a demotivator for me in discussion. If there were insulting ones, i reported those. The funniest neg rep that i can remember was for a spelling error in a discussion

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

Then again, it'd be pretty weak to stop posting thoughts due to being negged though, lol.

Easy for you to say. With the way rep became imbalanced, a single neg rep from one of the top 20 rep members could take them into the red so far that it'd take a dozen positive reps from other members to recover.

Now personally I have already tried to tell people to see rep as a game, and not to take it too seriously. But having a red dot next to your nickname did affect the way you were seen and treated on the forum. In addition, as rep was allowed to be given for any reason (so long as the rep comment was not offensive), the poster was not allowed to address the criticism (directly), which was often given by a coward anonymously. I think we can't blame people who felt the whole thing was not very welcoming, fair, or conducive to being able to express your opinions openly.

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

Also, you can be good at debate and be a complete dick too, and that usually doesn't make you very popular.

I know a couple of forum members who are (at least arguably) complete dicks, good at debate, and still quite popular at least if you judge by rep. Because rep wasn't a good indication of popularity either. It just meant that you had a few "friends in high places".

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Easy for you to say. With the way rep became imbalanced, a single neg rep from one of the top 20 rep members could take them into the red so far that it'd take a dozen positive reps from other members to recover.

Relentless, my first rep on AS was a neg (Pretty much as soon as I landed on AS) and more soon were to follow. I was already crippled and was unable to even use the feature since I was below 10 pts and all because I wrote some glowing praise for Clannad and I'm not even sure what the hell that was even about.

So as you would have guessed, I never took the thing very seriously as a feedback system. It was pretty funny since I always ran on a 1.5:1 pos:neg ratio soon after and someone would always neg me like clockwork. In my personal experience, it seemed like posts that I would neg myself for were ignored, and the more innocuous ones were negged.

Well I suppose you could say that I can be like "screw the negs, I have points" and true, but I really doubt people are complaining about losing pts as opposed to the message itself. And that's just natural.

I assure you that I would post the same regardless of how many bars I've had and have posted similarly for a long time, long before AS, depending on moderation practices. Well, I have noted that my posts on AS a lot toned down then I have posted elsewhere in the past, but I attribute that to being having matured (somewhat) and not being so insecure in my tastes, though you may pop my bubble if you want.

But still I will concede that it's a bit easier than me, simply because for certain posts, I had it coming.

Now personally I have already tried to tell people to see rep as a game, and not to take it too seriously. But having a red dot next to your nickname did affect the way you were seen and treated on the forum. In addition, as rep was allowed to be given for any reason (so long as the rep comment was not offensive), the poster was not allowed to address the criticism (directly), which was often given by a coward anonymously. I think we can't blame people who felt the whole thing was not very welcoming, fair, or conducive to being able to express your opinions openly.

Oh, now, I understand it's fine to be offended (I have reported someone for abusing it on me) ; I don't expect one to smile after being insulted. I just don't think it's fine to be offended to the degree that you would not be able to post freely. It's on the same level of say you're walking home, and then this crazy homeless guy starts calling you names. (No offense to crazy homeless people; they usually make more sense ) Sure, you aren't going to feel good about it, but it's not going to affect your daily business. Still, I do understand so many people got offended enough that the mod team didn't want to deal with this high level of pettiness anymore. Who does?

I know a couple of forum members who are (at least arguably) complete dicks, good at debate, and still quite popular at least if you judge by rep. Because rep wasn't a good indication of popularity either. It just meant that you had a few "friends in high places".

Oh, hah, I know what you're talking about too but is that really that common? But I'm sorta imagining the somewhat lone wolf kind that is outspoken. One can be good at debate and not make friends of the kind that would be needed to propel yourself.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

It's on the same level of say you're walking home, and then this crazy homeless guy starts calling you names. (No offense to crazy homeless people; they usually make more sense ) Sure, you aren't going to feel good about it, but it's not going to affect your daily business.

Well, if only it were "crazy homeless guys". We're talking about people who masquerade as a community leaders most of the time and play the part of the "crazy homeless guy" just so they can call people names and get away with it. I was not too impressed with the way some supposedly-respectable people were using rep to push their agendas, both on the plus and the negative side.

(This also goes the example given earlier of people who are ostensibly respectable people but didn't want to post negative opinions in a thread (because it'd hurt their public image?) so they pos-repped other members who were espousing their opinion to incentivise them. The goal for those people wasn't "make the forum community a better place", it was "make sure my opinion is supported". Of course, I suppose a lot of people may think the forum is a better place the more their opinion is trumpeted by many...)

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

Still, I do understand so many people got offended enough that the mod team didn't want to deal with this high level of pettiness anymore. Who does?

Well, it's more like: why have a system that supports this implicitly? I don't want this to be pitched as "a bunch of whiners couldn't take the hits and complained and that's why the mods are eliminating rep". That's not it at all. This is why a lot of the comments like "oh, just get rid of neg rep and you get rid of all the complaints" are missing the point too.

In other words, I think the "pettiness" comes in many forms.

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

Well I suppose you could say that I can be like "screw the negs, I have points" and true, but I really doubt people are complaining about losing pts as opposed to the message itself. And that's just natural.

Well, yes, and I suppose it's mostly because rep (as implemented) gave you no way to address the criticism, which stung particularly if it was unfair.

Actually, there was a way of "addressing it" (sort of) but it required you to be aware of the etiquette. You could edit your existing post to clarify something, or post again (provided you weren't double-posting), but you couldn't refer to the fact that you were responding to rep. And I did actually see some people do this. Sometimes it actually did cause people to restate their opinion in a way that was more clear, balanced, or considered. But other times it just caused people to retrench their positions and become even more outspoken. I guess it depended on the situation and the nature of the comment they were sent. Ideally, you'd never take rep comments too seriously, or presume in the reasonableness of the person sending it...


Anyway, I think we're mostly going around in circles now. We'll probably close the thread in a few days, but leaving it open for now just in case there are any other things missed as the system was retired. (I'll look into removing the one FAQ, as was mentioned.)

[Ichuki]

I am actually glad that the reputation system is being retired because it isn't fair to have a bad reputation in the forums when you aren't trolling and just saying your opinion on things.

[idont]

Glad it's gone. I've gotten some really dumb neg reps. E.g. Watching "Licensed" anime even though I'm in a country where it wasn't licensed.

[RRW]

I think we should have a poll now the another poll 3-6 month latter to see if there is any change

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by RRW

I think we should have a poll now the another poll 3-6 month latter to see if there is any change

I don't think a poll will provide any useful data, as there is no way to capture the variety of opinions expressed in this thread in any sort of single poll question, not to mention there'll be a bias in the sample. The issue of "should we keep the reputation system" is not on the table anyway; we will never bring the reputation system back the way it was before because it is inherently flawed. That doesn't mean it isn't possible that other systems could be introduced, but again I don't think that'd be addressable via a poll. At least in my opinion, the comments in this thread are a lot more relevant to figuring out how people feel about this issue than any arbitrary number.