2008-01-01, 22:10 | Link #281 | ||
Gomen asobase desuwa!
Join Date: Nov 2003
Age: 43
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MARRIED WHO? WHERE DID THIS GIRL COME FROM? |
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2008-01-01, 22:15 | Link #282 |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
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heh.... and now the thread spirals.... but yeah, that is "left as an exercise to the reader" no matter which version of Genesis you use. And a building a city has all of its own implications.
To answer Terrestrial Dream: You can take any random couple (f/m) and start... after a few dozen generations and some minor isolation (move to an island, split off and form a highland group, etc)... guess what? You'll have variation in skin tone, facial characteristics, language, and culture. So that isn't a great argument against the "only two to start with" hypothesis. But..... back on topic --- I'll resay that anime pseudo-incest and incest are just other facets of the fantasies available to fiction readers looking for mild taboo-ish romance.
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2008-01-01, 22:26 | Link #283 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
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As a trained molecular biologist, I can tell you that the original human race. is not Caucasian. There are no two original humans. There were a small population of humans living in East Africa that gave rise to the whole population of the world today. The first humans are more than likely have dark skin, while their descendants lost the color of their skin after they moved to high altitude areas (europe and asia).
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2008-01-01, 22:43 | Link #284 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Australia
Age: 38
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I largely find the "we are all related" point moot anyway. By saying that we are all genetically related is obvious (being of the same species and all we are all bound to share genetic similarities on some level) and really doesn't progress the debate. Incest is between close family members, not your 50th cousin. |
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2008-01-01, 23:00 | Link #285 | |
Toyosaki Aki
Scanlator
Join Date: Nov 2007
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Anyway, I agree with Fweakin. It's a moot point discussing human origins, not to mention wildly off-topic. Back to the subject for which this thread was resurrected: Why incest is so prominent in anime- because it is legal in Japan. Agree? Disagree? I would have to disagree. First of all "incest", or sex between members of the immediate family, is NOT legal in Japan. Cousin marriage is, which is a grey area between incest and uh...not incest. Secondly, true "incest" is NOT prominent in anime, the only real examples are Myself;Yourself, Koi Kaze, and School Days *shudders*. Two of which are initially done unknowingly, M;Y being only implied.
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2008-01-01, 23:13 | Link #286 | |
Not Enough Sleep
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: R'lyeh
Age: 48
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2008-01-02, 08:34 | Link #288 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
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Kamui: That post your quoted was only a response to someone who was asking a question about such things. As such, the correct post to quote and to ask to create a new thread would have been tripperazn, not I. Just correcting you on a mistake you made. Dream: Please see my post regarding Noah to answer you question. Anyway that's enough off-topic discussion regarding the bible. If you want to do discuss the bible specifically further which doesn't relate to incest, we can always talk to pm. |
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2008-01-02, 09:06 | Link #289 | |
Member
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: The South of England
Age: 55
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And, of course, these days it is perfectly possible to have a relationship without breeding. I can see nothing wrong in a truly mutually-consentual incestual relationship. Unfortunately, in real-life these are extremely rare. Most incest is the result of abuse or coercion. Also, there are a number of H-games and AVs that have an incest theme. Whilst these are obviously different from the romantic sort of incest the thread started talking about, they could give a hint towards why it features. The Japanese are simply a lot less uptight than some when it comes to their fantasies... |
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2008-01-02, 10:28 | Link #290 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
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Here is a copy from wikipedia about the genetic issues that come to play in regards to incest. Be careful, it's pretty complicated.
"Inbreeding leads to an increase in homozygosity (the same allele at the same locus on both members of a chromosome pair). This occurs because close relatives are much more likely to share the same alleles than unrelated individuals. This is especially important for recessive alleles that happen to be deleterious, which are harmless and inactive in a heterozygous pairing but, when homozygous, can cause serious developmental defects. Such offspring have a much higher chance of death before reaching the age of reproduction, leading to what biologists call inbreeding depression, a measurable decrease in fitness due to inbreeding among populations with deleterious recessives. Recessive genes, which can contain various genetic problems, appear more often in the offspring of procreative couplings whose members both have the same gene. For example, the child of persons who are both hemophiliac has a nearly 100% chance of having hemophilia. Leavitt has argued that inbreeding in small populations can have long-term positive effects: "small inbreeding populations, while initially increasing their chances for harmful homozygotic recessive pairings on a locus, will quickly eliminate such genes from their breeding pools, thus reducing their genetic loads". (Leavitt 1990, p. 974.) However, other specialists have argued that these positive long-term effects of inbreeding are almost always unrealized because the short-term fitness depression is enough for selection to discourage it. In order for such a "purification" to work, the offspring of close mate pairings must be either homozygous-dominant (completely free of bad genes) or -recessive (will die before reproducing). If there are heterozygous offspring, they will be able to transmit the defective genes without themselves feeling any effects. This model does not account for multiple deleterious recessives (most people have more than one) and multi-locus gene linkages. The introduction of mutations negates the weeding out of bad genes, and evidence exists that homozygous individuals are often more at risk to pathogenic predation. Because of these complications, it is extremely difficult to overcome the initial spike in fitness penalties incurred by inbreeding. (Moore 1992; Uhlmann 1992.)" Also Gaiarth, it is definitely not the "japanese" so to speak that are less uptight, but more over the otaku's who draw such things. You have to realise that to most of society, otaku's are consider one of the banes of society. To be considered an otaku is to be looked at with disgust and avoidance. That is why even though it's occasional to see incest in anime/manga, but never in japanese drama's or television shows. When addressing otaku's, it's best to consider their thinking seperate from japanese people, because that's how they think out here. |
2008-01-02, 12:46 | Link #291 |
~ You're dead ^__^* ~
Graphic Designer
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Wow...here is where my biology knowledge comes in handy...I actually understand all that lawl
But I disagree view about how just because otaku's are looked down on, there are promoting the ideas of incest through anime. That is just...wrong...
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2008-01-02, 12:58 | Link #292 | |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
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Sometimes its good (addressing inter-racial relations, or breaking out of the social ruts, pushing that love is more important than appearances, etc) -- sometimes it is digging into taboos or just the prurient. I don't think they're actually advancing incest for the sake of advancing it, its just another of many forms of fantasy "slightly forbidden" types of love that humans get a secret charge-up out of thinking about. The General Culture is taking a long time to get over their disgust of the otaku (which is FAR more distasteful to them than the "american geek" is or was to US culture thanks to the connection made by the occasional serial killer of children... or the occasional gory crime that the newspapers hammer up any connection to anime/otaku). And honestly, I'll say that most Westerners who think using the word "otaku" as a badge of honor are doing themselves no favor. I stick to using the word "fan" as "otaku" (to a Japanese) essentially means "weird shut-in obsessive scary freak".
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2008-01-02, 15:27 | Link #293 | |
勇者
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Tesla Leicht Institute
Age: 34
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2008-01-02, 16:21 | Link #295 |
Kaede/Ama Fan boy
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Australia >< It suxz
Age: 32
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I find the entire concept of having any form of sexual relations with someone in your own family...disgusting and immorale. I for one Completly am for the theme and concept of true love and all that but im sorry when it comes to family members...it just doesnt seem right
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2008-01-02, 16:47 | Link #298 |
Kaede/Ama Fan boy
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Australia >< It suxz
Age: 32
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okay by my definition of family i mean everyone in your household, uncles aunties, grnadparents, the whole kaboose, also when i say family i also have to put foward that that includes relatives that are not blood related i still find the whole idea of sexual relations with a family member just not right **i am christian so that might be half of it but honestly this is just my own morale instinct here** ill admit that some socities accept it as commonplace but i am completly against it and if they want to see it as common place and if thats what they believe is right I will not go out of my way to try and change them, i hope that they for themselves can see the morale implications of their actions
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2008-01-02, 17:36 | Link #299 | |
Horoist
Join Date: Oct 2007
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Growing up, I had almost no contact with my paternal side of the family (uncles/aunts/cousins etc) and very little contact with my maternal side. Both of my parents were 'black sheep' and didn't see their families very often. I could've easily gotten in to a relationship with a cousin and never known it, because I never knew most of them, yet most of them lived in the same city. As mentioned though, that kind of thing is really common. But it does bring up an interesting question with attitudes like yours. You say it's disgusting... because you know they're family. Even non-blood related. That's 100% a mental block, due to your social ingrained values. But what if you didn't know, and you met and fell in love with somebody, only to find out down the road they're related. Would you suddenly fall out of love with them? I doubt it. That's not how human relationships work. I've been watching this topic for a while now, but not really had much to say on the topic that hasn't already been said. 'course what I've just said has already been said too, but I'm in a typing sort of mood at the moment so feel like replying. I have no issues with incest at all. It's socially taboo in this country, but that hasn't impacted my viewpoint at all. I think love is love, and that's that. Nothing should get in the way of that, not family status, religion, race, gender, age (to an extent) or anything. Most of the 'morals' and social values thrust upon most societies have been done so by religion, some of which make sense, some of which, like this, don't. Now, some people play the whole genetic mutation card. And that is a point (though as mentioned, first cousins, it's a fairly low risk.) however... that's ONLY a valid point if people plan to have kids. A lot of people don't these days. What's wrong with any couple having a healthy sexual relationship as long as they don't involve reproduction? But even if you do get in to the reproduction side of things, it is irresponsible to go having kids you know will have an increased chance of genetic mutation, but then a lot of people do that anyway, without incest involved. There are also parents who have a bunch of kids they can't afford to raise, that's just as irresponsible, I think. But, that's going off topic a bit. I'm in a rambly kind of mood atm. >.< Looking at incest from a personal viewpoint... I don't think I could have sex with any of my family members, but that's purely because I don't like my family at all. There's no sort of "OMG THAT'S SO WRONG TO EVEN THINK ABOUT" in my head or anything. It's just a "I hate my family, I don't want to screw any of them." thing. Were I to randomly meet and fall in love with one of my cousins, and found out later, I'd just shrug it off. Doesn't matter to me at all. But there's also zero chance of that happening because I don't want any kind of relationship at all, so I'm safe from any such nonsense. I value my hikikomori lifestyle too much to go messing it up with silly romance and such. Anyway. I didn't really have anything to say that hasn't already been said, so I'll just shut up now. |
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2008-01-02, 17:49 | Link #300 | |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
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"Christian" has little to do with it though someone may have draped it that way for you. The Bible does not rule out cousin or more distantly related marriage. That's just social custom from the Industrial Revolution twisted around. And there's no such thing as "moral instinct"... it is all taught. The poor Pakistani guy news article referenced a page or two ago is a prime example of stupid taboos and getting entangled in them. Core beliefs and taboos should be examined critically periodically. "What is the purpose of this rule and why do I assume it is axiomatic?"
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