[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 5 End of the golden witch

[Jan-Poo]

Ha I kinda like the idea that it is a reward for Erika. That would explain a lot of things. Considering that she has been talking to Eva about murders and so on and since it was clear the thing she loved the most was solving mysteries, then that might be plausible... and that would also explain why they play along with her.

But didn't they go a little far? And in that case wouldn't Battler be a total ass for spoiling her fun?

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

The idea that George and the others faked their death and nobody noticed isn't really working for me. Considering the kind of wound it was described that is practically impossible.
The other possibility is that everyone is in a conspiracy against Erika, but why would they do that to a perfect stranger. Well... maybe it wasn't Erika the target but Natsuhi and Erika simply happened to be a stranger who wasn't trusted enough to be told the truth.

Another possibility is that the bodies were fake, like waxwork statues, but that's insane that nobody noticed and you'd have to think Nanjo is part of the plot.

Which simply means that the wound was never faked. It was just a lie. They only covered the bodies up to their necks and she never actually looked at the wound. Which means everyone just acted as if they were all dead. In other words it was all planned out to be that way.

Perhaps everything that happened is a conspiracy against Natsuhi however - out of all the adults she never sees the bodies. But at the same time making a game just for Erika does make sense. It could explain why the adults were always listening to her. But I think if that's the case it did go too far. Especially when you get into Natsuhi breaking down and explaining what happened 19 years ago and Erika's 'motive', along with Eva beating Natsuhi up and Erika claiming Natsuhi had sex with Kinzo. Of course then we get to Hideyoshi's death, which makes me wonder if it was planned as well. Erika didn't see the wound either because they wrapped up his body, right? Or did she see the wound and then they wrapped it out, since Eva did pull out the stake.

And speaking of the stake - in the trial Lucifer stated she was the one who gouged Hideyoshi. Doesn't Beelzebub usually stake him?

[Tjfarmer]

If they were all playing along, even with Hideyoshi's death, then why did Kyrie suddenly tell Erika to "stop playing detective"

It would make sense, using that theory, that Hideyoshi's death wasn't planned, which is why Kyrie told Erika to stop playing detective, because now a real murder had occurred.

[Arachanox]

Furthermore, why would Kyrie become agitated and tell her to stop playing detective when ALL of the adults had already let a middle school kid steamroll their discussions and barge into the first twilight murder scene already? Only Battler ever had a real problem with it.

[Jan-Poo]

Yeah Lucifer staking Hideyoshi completely messes everything up. I really don't get how can you get a pattern... Everything seems to be random except for some kind of balance between male and female sacrifices.

Anyway it seems that Hideyoshi wasn't covered yet when Erika arived. At the very least they covered him with more blankets later. If he was already covered by one it was never stated.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Arachanox

Furthermore, why would Kyrie become agitated and tell her to stop playing detective when ALL of the adults had already let a middle school kid steamroll their discussions and barge into the first twilight murder scene already? Only Battler ever had a real problem with it.

You can't let on. Same reason Battler is arguing against her. If everybody just agreed, what would be the point? She might also start to catch on. It's also possible Battler got mad because he realized the real purpose of the "game" was to corner Natsuhi, and it stopped being fun once they started tormenting her.

The First Twilight cannot be real. It's simply not possible. Nobody's behavior makes any sense.

1) No one runs for the guns. They do this every time they have the opportunity (ep4 notwithstanding, and we don't KNOW what happened to the guns there). If they think there is a killer, they get something to defend themselves. All of the adults are alive, yet not one word is spoken of getting a weapon. Why? They believe they are in no danger.

2) They spend more time cornering Natsuhi than trying to figure out who killed everyone. Why would they specifically suspect Natsuhi at first? Why not suspect Battler's family first? Kyrie and Rudolf stand to gain the most. Not one time is any notion of their guilt suspected. That's because they're part of, or even organizing, the fake deaths and/or "game." No one suspects them because there's nobody really dead.

3) Hideyoshi talks to himself very pointedly about the door being unlocked and closing the windows. He then cries loudly over George. But he should know that, as far as he's aware, George isn't really dead. It's all an act, put on for Natsuhi whom everyone knows will be hiding in the closet. No one was in the room with him. He wasn't attacked at all.

4) Nobody bothers to search the closet, and in fact they actively prevent Erika from doing so. They would never be so daft. They knew Natsuhi was in there from the start, but they didn't want to corner her yet.

[Arachanox]

Originally Posted by Renall

You can't let on. Same reason Battler is arguing against her. If everybody just agreed, what would be the point? She might also start to catch on. It's also possible Battler got mad because he realized the real purpose of the "game" was to corner Natsuhi, and it stopped being fun once they started tormenting her.

The First Twilight cannot be real. It's simply not possible. Nobody's behavior makes any sense.

1) No one runs for the guns. They do this every time they have the opportunity (ep4 notwithstanding, and we don't KNOW what happened to the guns there). If they think there is a killer, they get something to defend themselves. All of the adults are alive, yet not one word is spoken of getting a weapon. Why? They believe they are in no danger.

2) They spend more time cornering Natsuhi than trying to figure out who killed everyone. Why would they specifically suspect Natsuhi at first? Why not suspect Battler's family first? Kyrie and Rudolf stand to gain the most. Not one time is any notion of their guilt suspected. That's because they're part of, or even organizing, the fake deaths and/or "game." No one suspects them because there's nobody really dead.

3) Hideyoshi talks to himself very pointedly about the door being unlocked and closing the windows. He then cries loudly over George. But he should know that, as far as he's aware, George isn't really dead. It's all an act, put on for Natsuhi whom everyone knows will be hiding in the closet. No one was in the room with him. He wasn't attacked at all.

4) Nobody bothers to search the closet, and in fact they actively prevent Erika from doing so. They would never be so daft. They knew Natsuhi was in there from the start, but they didn't want to corner her yet.

Very intriguing. I also noticed that no one ran for the guns, but I didn't think anything beyond that. The whole theory is interesting, but are we so sure about the Second Twilight? Isn't that where things fall apart?

[LyricalAura]

This might not be very helpful to solving the overall mystery, but I have an idea where Genji's corpse may have ended up.

Erika determined with her scientific investigation that Genji didn't leave the mansion after midnight, so his corpse should be somewhere inside the mansion. But in the process of looking for Kinzo, Erika claimed to have completely searched the basement and first, second, and third floors of the mansion. It is impossible for the detective to overlook clues, and neither Erika nor any of her fellow searchers said anything about finding Genji's body. Additionally, everyone was together with Erika when the rooms on the second floor were searched. If you put all of that together, we ought to be able to conclude one of the following things:

1. Erika discovered Genji's body somewhere in the mansion, but she and the others with her deliberately kept quiet about it. "Somewhere" is a place not on the second floor. This might be a Knox 7 violation.

2. Erika and her companions lied about having searched the entire mansion, and Bernkastel introduced the red about Kinzo under false pretenses. Again, the corpse must not be on the second floor.

3. Genji's corpse is in the mansion, but not in the basement or the first, second, or third floors. The only place meeting that restriction is the inner courtyard, which was not searched because everyone assumed Kinzo wouldn't stay out in the rain.

[Jan-Poo]

conspiracy theory...

That seems also the case in Ep4, with Battler as the target.

and then in Ep2 conspiracy could be what the family talked with "Beatrice" in the chapel. Everything was set up for Maria's sake (it is even written "happy halloween for Maria"). That would explain Rosa's odd behavior. Why she acts as if she never knew what happened in the chapel, why she never suspected "Beatrice". This also would solve the chapel riddle with simply: the door wasn't locked in the first place.

[Arachanox]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

This might not be very helpful to solving the overall mystery, but I have an idea where Genji's corpse may have ended up.

Erika determined with her scientific investigation that Genji didn't leave the mansion after midnight, so his corpse should be somewhere inside the mansion. But in the process of looking for Kinzo, Erika claimed to have completely searched the basement and first, second, and third floors of the mansion. It is impossible for the detective to overlook clues, and neither Erika nor any of her fellow searchers said anything about finding Genji's body. Additionally, everyone was together with Erika when the rooms on the second floor were searched. If you put all of that together, we ought to be able to conclude one of the following things:

1. Erika discovered Genji's body somewhere in the mansion, but she and the others with her deliberately kept quiet about it. "Somewhere" is a place not on the second floor. This might be a Knox 7 violation.

2. Erika and her companions lied about having searched the entire mansion, and Bernkastel introduced the red about Kinzo under false pretenses. Again, the corpse must not be on the second floor.

3. Genji's corpse is in the mansion, but not in the basement or the first, second, or third floors. The only place meeting that restriction is the inner courtyard, which was not searched because everyone assumed Kinzo wouldn't stay out in the rain.

The inner courtyard is technically "on the first floor". The existence of a fourth floor or attic has not been denied.

[Jan-Poo]

That would be a violation of the knox rules. If such a thing existed it should have been mentioned by now.

[Arachanox]

The Knox rules do not pertain to Beato's world.

But that is too cheap.

If I went through every word of Episodes 1 through 4, I may find even the slightest hint or foreshadowing mentioning additional floors or attic spaces in the mansion.

Will I do that? Not really - so much effort for so little reward. But if someone else remembers such a clue, please come forward. Until then, I will accept that the mansion has no fourth floor or attic space.

[Renall]

Well, there's a basement, but they excluded that one too.

[Arachanox]

Does the basement count as a Floor 0? If so, could they be hidden on a hypothetical Floor -1, which is deeper than the basement?

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Arachanox

Does the basement count as a Floor 0? If so, could they be hidden on a hypothetical Floor -1, which is deeper than the basement?

A hidden lower floor would seem to qualify as a hidden area or secret passage. For it not to be, someone would have needed to mention that it existed.

There is, of course, evidence that there is a system of tunnels under the island. But for this to work, the entrance to them would not be able to be secret. I kind of doubt there's a door to Kinzo's Secret Tunnels in the house that isn't itself a secret door.

[Arachanox]

Originally Posted by Renall

A hidden lower floor would seem to qualify as a hidden area or secret passage. For it not to be, someone would have needed to mention that it existed.

There is, of course, evidence that there is a system of tunnels under the island. But for this to work, the entrance to them would not be able to be secret. I kind of doubt there's a door to Kinzo's Secret Tunnels in the house that isn't itself a secret door.

I wouldn't put it past Kinzo to hide something in plain sight.

The gold is behind the portrait. Kinzo's secret door is actually the door next to the parlor. Etc.

[Jan-Poo]

That's why Battler finds unreasonable to deny a secret passage "a priori".

[k//eternal]

Would the epitaph count as a mention of a secret passage (under the assumption that solving it reveals the existence of one) and therefore allow some kind of tunnel to escape the Knox rules?

[Arachanox]

Originally Posted by k//eternal

Would the epitaph count as a mention of a secret passage (under the assumption that solving it reveals the existence of one) and therefore allow some kind of tunnel to escape the Knox rules?

That's a good question. I would assume yes, but who knows for sure?

Another question: Does the existence of the underground tunnels allow the existence of other subterranean rooms and not break Knox Rules?

[Jan-Poo]

Secret passages are denied regardless of them being foreshadowed. There is a specific rules for them.

Another question: Does the existence of the underground tunnels allow the existence of other subterranean rooms and not break Knox Rules?

If the underground tunnel reaches the Mansion yes it works. The only problem is that there is no known entrance to that and that would make it a secret passage. Plus I don't know if that would qualify as part of the Mansion even if it was under it.