2013-03-16, 15:33 | Link #12841 | ||||
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2013-03-16, 15:42 | Link #12842 |
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Look, Sol. I get where you're coming from. Honest. I probably hate Medaka x Zen ten times more than you, do.
But, they're inevitably going to end up toguether. It's just going to happen, one way or the other. That's just an unfortunate fact that has to be accepted. Yes. Zen isn't an addict of Medaka's love anymore. He just dumped her offer(probably one which entailed getting laid every night), for a time in his life away from her. And that's awesome. We should find that awesome. Zen's growing. He hates the fact that he was so needy of Medaka's love that he was missing out in living the life that he wanted to, and he's finally decided to have some time to live that. Finally realized that he hated how he was acting and that he's not satisfied anymore with *just* Medaka. But, let's be honest. Could this evolve into them not loving each other anymore? Zen abandoning it completely because he either finds someone else or feel like he's grown past it? Yeah. Could Medaka stop loving him for, I dunno, X reasons? yeah. But is it likely? No. It's, like, a 1% chance, at best.
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2013-03-16, 16:15 | Link #12843 | |
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This is the fundamental thing you will have to prove. Not in general, but specifically in Medaka's case. What evidence is there that Zenkichi holds any special meaning to Medaka besides her dependence on his dedication which will protect her from loneliness? Zenkichi did previously give her a meaning to her existence, but then he took it away. The one thing which has maintained Medaka's love for Zenkichi ever since then was that even without her meaning for existence, she trusted that Zenkichi would always be there for her.
Zenkichi's proposal itself was merely a formalization of that dedication to their future together. Why would Medaka be happy to be engaged to Zenkichi? Because it formally symbolized Zenkichi's promise that they would always be together. That promise is specifically what Zenkichi has reneged on in this chapter (to the benefit of both of their characters). There is no reason to expect the engagement itself to be upheld past this chapter, unless you expect Zen to grow backwards from his character development. Quote:
Last edited by Sol Falling; 2013-03-16 at 16:39. |
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2013-03-16, 16:47 | Link #12844 | ||
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Though it once did for both, I don't think that dependency defines their love for one another any longer, which is why their relationship isn't in question for me. I'm certain that Medaka's not going to fall out of love with Zenkichi simply due to his decision to temporarily not follow her every whim. I'd have to see that to believe it, and I'm definitely not expecting to. Quote:
Seriously? Your notions of what should occur between Zenkichi and Medaka does not automatically signify "literary self-integrity", and the opposite certainly doesn't strip it away. That's some flawed reasoning. |
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2013-03-16, 16:47 | Link #12845 |
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Join Date: Apr 2012
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I think 1% is a very good chance. I would say a much smaller values = 10^-10.
Recall the last arc. Oh, Ajimu died. Oh, Medaka died. Exactly exactly died. Oh, do not die - but certainly missing from the manga. Yes, yes of course. About 15 pages of manga (for Medaka). [sarcasm] Of course, I stand by my opinion that the Zen acts like an idiot. Almost like an idiot. But in general, I do not see what is threatening the pair. |
2013-03-16, 16:56 | Link #12846 | |
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I pretty much think this is what's gonna happen in the future. Don't get me wrong, though. I actually do want him to grow out of his love for her, personally. But, hey. Fanfiction is there for a reason, am I right?
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2013-03-16, 18:23 | Link #12847 | |
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First of all, you guys have got something wrong. There is no sense that Zenkichi was ever really 'dependent' on Medaka. He's just been living with the kind of retarded teenage idea of "I should live my entire life for this woman" for quite some time. It's the kind of idea that arises from a combination of unbearably simplistic, reductionist idealism, and thinking with your dick.
Zenkichi's 'maturation' represents a graduation from this sort of close-minded self-conception (i.e. that "a man's life revolves around a woman." Of course, I find the reciprocate idea, "a woman's life revolves around a man", equally disgusting as well, but that's a separate battle). Zenkichi was however never dependent on Medaka in any practical or emotional sense. If you insisted on calling what Zenkichi felt for Medaka a 'dependency', the most accurate would probably be an intellectual dependency, in terms of how he saw the world. Anyway, with that clarified, speaking now of Medaka's case: Quote:
Medaka's attachment to Zen has always indicated an infantile, incomplete, flawed and unsustainable dependence on him. As I said before, before you can continue with your premise that Medaka's 'love' for Zen is not completely defined by her dependency on him, you are going to have to first find evidence of any sort of feeling from Medaka not based on dependency, post-ch. 140, at all. Last edited by Sol Falling; 2013-03-16 at 19:21. |
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2013-03-16, 19:33 | Link #12848 |
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Sol, you keep saying that others have to find evidence that Medaka's love is not dependency. But I say to you that saying a person's love is a form of dependency is a far more unusual statement, so I believe that you are the one who should be getting evidence for this debate.
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2013-03-16, 20:11 | Link #12849 |
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lol, I've never said that Medaka's 'love' was a form of dependency. The reason I've been using quotation marks around 'love' all this time because Medaka has never shown any actual love for Zenkichi in the first place. All she has ever shown is emotional dependency, and this would be clear to anyone who has actually paid attention to her characterization.
My evidence is pretty much any freakin' scene about Medaka's feelings for Zenkichi in the entire series. I can't be assed to actually go through and list or explain them all, so if you really want to argue otherwise just pick any one you like. |
2013-03-16, 20:47 | Link #12851 |
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Location: Monterrey N.L. Mexico
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I would like to remind everybody that posting links to scanlation sites is not allowed here, nor is it allowed to mention sites that provide licensed or RAW content.
We have posted this warning many times over across the whole forum and if people continue to ignore this, we will be left with no choice but to hand out direct bans to anyone that refuses to listen. Do not post images that clearly show the name of the host site either.
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2013-03-16, 21:07 | Link #12852 | |
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The basis of Medaka's character is: 1) she's isolated from other people because of her abilities, and 2) due to the difficulty of finding a place where she's accepted on account of her abilities, she has trouble understanding the point or purpose of her life.
Medaka is emotionally dependent on Zen because he accepted her. In the beginning, he even gave her a purpose which could potentially make other people accept her. For that reason, Medaka depended on Zenkichi's purpose for her, and his belief in that purpose, to fight against the loneliness of being isolated for a long time. After a while, Zenkichi took away Medaka's purpose and told her he had been mistaken about it. This left Medaka to discover some more genuine way to connect to people on her own. However, despite losing her purpose, the most important thing for Medaka was still there: the fact that at least one person (Zenkichi) was still there who would always accept/understand her. Because Zenkichi would basically always exist as that sort of security blanket for her, Medaka would never truly need to grow or try hard to develop beyond her inability to communicate with others. Although Medaka set off on her own to discover her purpose in the universe amongst other humans, Zenkichi's proposal to Medaka was essentially a confirmation that she wouldn't need it in the end. Medaka's happy response to it indicated that that security blanket is something which she wanted emotionally, but in terms of personal growth it has never been something portrayed as necessarily good for her. Medaka and Zenkichi's engagement has never represented anything which would be positive for their character development. In fact it is an obstacle. Medaka's love for Zenkichi has never been portrayed as anything besides a security blanket for her loneliness; a final safety against the possibility of her inability to communicate with others. However, in fact, Medaka successfully learning to communicate with others is absolutely necessary -- it is the fundamental point of all her character development. Quote:
Last edited by Sol Falling; 2013-03-16 at 21:26. |
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2013-03-16, 21:08 | Link #12853 | ||
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I certainly agree that her love for him can be considered flawed, but so can Zenkichi's for her, but the flawed aspects have rarely outweighed the beneficial ones for me, which is why I'm expecting the seemingly inevitable maturity that both will acquire will naturally eliminate several of those completely realistic "flaws". |
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2013-03-16, 21:41 | Link #12854 | ||
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2013-03-16, 22:56 | Link #12855 | ||
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Essentially, the dependency is an increasingly minuscule factor in her love for Zenkichi and it's a bit strange to blanket all of their relationship development with a singular aspect of Medaka's connection to Zenkichi that was far more integral when they were young. Quote:
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2013-03-16, 23:23 | Link #12856 | |
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Go to the pre-serialization oneshot or another of the very earliest chapters of the series. Medaka says that "Zenkichi's the man who won't ever let me be alone". Go to Medaka's confrontation with Bukiko just before Zenkichi arrives in the Jet Black Wedding arc. Medaka says "Zenkichi's the one who will always catch up to my side". The entire basis of Medaka's 'love' for Zen has always been based on her faith and belief in his dedication to her. Her expectation that he would always be her final answer against loneliness. That is the entirety of her feelings for Zen. She has zero connection to him aside from that. Seriously, what exactly was your argument? "Medaka kissed Zen, therefore she doesn't emotionally depend on him"? Was that your actual attempt at an answer or am I mistaking something? I'm still waiting for any (ANY) evidence that Medaka's feelings for Zen involved anything besides being happy about his complete dedication to her. I hardly care whether you "buy" my arguments or not if you can't even suggest a coherent alternative. |
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2013-03-17, 00:39 | Link #12857 | |
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I still don't understand how this is an inaccurate perception, since it was only presented as such. IMO, at least.
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My argument was that there is actual love within Medaka’s feelings for Zen, and though I could simply wait for the rest of this arc to thoroughly prove my point, I felt compelled to offer a contention to your assumption that she has no connection to him beyond a need for his presence. He’s easily the most important person in her life, due to a plethora of reasons that far extend beyond mere dependency, or, otherwise, she could have simply decided to fall for Kumagawa, since he too could have saved her from her loneliness, and yet she never has. Regardless, it’s not as though I think their relationship has incredible depth, which is why I’ve repeatedly mentioned that Zenkichi and Medaka need to mature as individuals before it progresses even further. Though occasionally complex, Zenkichi and Medaka’s feelings for one another are typically simplistic. However, this simplicity, IMO, at least when concerning Medaka, no longer exists solely due to emotional dependence, and, though she occasionally references Zenkichi’s inability to stray by her side, I don’t feel that it heavily motivates her anymore. Really though, what would exactly be a satisfying and cohesive “alternative” for you, to the point where you’d actually agree with what I’m suggesting? I’ve always perceived a slight dependency in both Medaka and Zenkichi’s love for one another, and though Medaka’s was more prevalent throughout the early portions of the story, they’ve both matured into legitimately loving one another, though they still, of course, have a long way to go before their relationship is entirely healthy. Basically, it’s natural for her to be disappointed and upset that the man she loves isn't accompanying her, which is why I find the supposed implications that this arc will partially focus on Medaka’s realization that she’s “fallen out of love” with Zenkichi to be unrealistic and nearly impossible. My argument, at it’s core, was pertaining to this, prior to the distraction of divergent tangents. |
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2013-03-17, 01:01 | Link #12858 |
minority spirit(?)
Fansubber
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http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news...o-bouquet-toss
Is it something that needs ANN's coverage? |
2013-03-17, 01:52 | Link #12859 | ||
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Age: 35
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Calling Medaka's romantic attraction to Zenkichi 'surprising' is a complete stretch, by the way, given her proposal to him at the age of two. When Naze and other characters said during the True Flask Plan arc that Medaka and Zenkichi's relationship hadn't changed for 13 years, they really weren't kidding. Latent romantic attraction to Zenkichi has always existed in Medaka on account of what he means to her (namely, the person who would save her from her loneliness); she even had a prior confession scene in ch. 35 or 36. The reason Medaka herself never pushed for a romantic relationship was only because she retained the memory of his rejection--she thought he wasn't interested. Can you justify calling Zenkichi's "kindness" different from Zenkichi's devotion to her? The fact is that Medaka has always had a romantic interest in Zenkichi, borne from her immature emotional dependency on him; it was on the basis of this immature dependency that she accepted Zenkichi's proposal, and it is on the basis of this immature dependency that she's disappointed by Zenkichi's rejection now. Having degraded Medaka's character sufficiently by allowing Medaka to retain that immaturity to this point, it is time for Nishio to finally let her grow up. Quote:
Anyway, as far as Kumagawa, I of course do believe that he would be a fully suitable candidate for helping Medaka overcome her loneliness. However, the immediate issue to be had in this arc is only Medaka's weakness/flaw/character development, not the potential resolution to it. The reason Medaka has never considered Kumagawa seriously to date in the manga is because she (thought she) already had Zenkichi. Now she does not. While the recent development is certainly a step on the path towards Medaka x Kumagawa, there's no need to jump ahead of ourselves just yet. Last edited by Sol Falling; 2013-03-17 at 02:18. |
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action, comedy, harem, nishio, romance, shounen, student council |
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