Romance in Macross

[KiraYamatoFan]

Originally Posted by Tak

Well, Ranka shippers prefer Ranka to get on with him no matter what. Although if he is indeed a person to break promises, and that he did hook up with Ranka at the end, is that not a hallow and ultimately fruitless relationship? Is that Ranka-shippers are aiming for?

And what of Berera after all this? He was the one who sacrificed much for Ranka. In fact, during the latter half of the series, it was Berera, not Alto, who saved Ranka in nearly every trouble Ranka managed to get herself into. He was the one to provide the emotional support Ranka needed, he was the one who supported Ranka in choosing her path. I wonder, by the series end, what would be his reward? Death? Another grand sacrifice in protecting Ranka? If people exercise some logic in this, it is absolutely not difficult to see that Berera had done much, much more for Ranka than anyone else in the series.

With that said, why would Ranka shippers still prefer Alto is absolutely beyond me.

- Tak

I was asking the same question as well. When I remember of Escaflowne a few years back, Kawamori pulled Allen out of the race for Hitomi's feelings with 3 episodes to go and it coincided with the moment Allen found his long lost sister, Serena, who's been transformed into the most tormented killer of the series by the enemy. When I think of Ranka and Brera, I think the moment is perfect to repeat that kind of storyline as Ranka would still have someone close to her at the end of the day.

What happened at the end for Allen and Serena is a scenario I can see repeating itself with Ranka and Brera. The main concern now is to cure Sheryl in order to bring everyone safe back home.

[zalem]

Eh? I never seriously thought Allen was in the race. It seemed obvious that he was just a school girl crush for Hitomi and nothing more. Van and Hitomi were it from the beginning.

[KiraYamatoFan]

Originally Posted by zalem

Eh? I never seriously thought Allen was in the race. It seemed obvious that he was just a school girl crush for Hitomi and nothing more. Van and Hitomi were it from the beginning.

You have to remember that Allen even PROPOSED to her and she was on the verge of accepting it.

[Wesley84]

Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan

You have to remember that Allen even PROPOSED to her and she was on the verge of accepting it.

Wasn't that because of that Fate Machine?

[KiraYamatoFan]

Originally Posted by Wesley84

Wasn't that because of that Fate Machine?

The first kiss, yes. BUT the proposal really had nothing to do with it.

It happened before Hitomi was sent back to Earth for the first time, in disgust of the war.

[Wesley84]

Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan

The first kiss, yes. BUT the proposal really had nothing to do with it.

It happened before Hitomi was sent back to Earth for the first time, in disgust of the war.

I'm...pretty sure the Fate Machine had a lasting effect beyond that kiss on the bridge. Especially the way Allen was walking around like nothing was amiss.

Kawamori worked on Escaflowne? What the hell happened to him?

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan

The first kiss, yes. BUT the proposal really had nothing to do with it.

It happened before Hitomi was sent back to Earth for the first time, in disgust of the war.

Even though I agree with you about the whole Ranka will stick with her brother Brera thing. In Escaflowne the proposal did have to do with the fate machine. It was only when Hitomi went back to Earth that the pull was broken.

And then Hitomi pretty much admitted that Amano/Allen was just a crush and Allen admitted he saw his sister in Hitomi. So there was never any real romantic feelings between them.

[Wesley84]

Allen also just so happen to look like Hitomi's original crush, so if the whole gallant, wavy blonde haired Bishie flirtie swordsman didn't immediately get her attention, there was the whole familiarity-while-being-lost-on-a-strange-world thing going for him.

[Seifall]

I know, this is big but I'm kind so the lazy ones can skip it ,I will not hold a grudge

Originally Posted by aldw

I have to agree with Crusader's blogpost assessment of Ranka, she simply is too immature to have any real relationship with Alto even up to now, and as for whatever issues regarding Alto's prior hesitation towards Sheryl, well crap happens all the time with real life relationships, expecting everything to go perfectly is just wishful thinking. Alto no matter what his issues made the decision to stay with Sheryl on his own wherewithal, and even though it may not be the best of circumstances, as stated before, c'est la vie.

I read this blog. It goes without saying, his, is not that popular among Ranka's fan Looks like he insists too much on the bad points when it comes to Ranka but Sheryl, she, has the right for a different treatment....
He made the decision to stay with Sheryl on his own you're right, but I doubt sheryl will be contented just with that. She wants more from him. That's why she didn't want to tell anything by fear he will stay with her out of pity. Too bad, Klan revealed averything . From my point of view after seeing this episode, and seeing what made him change towards her, he will not give her the answer she was waiting ....

Originally Posted by Tak

Because she -loves- him, because she wants him to hate her and forget about her so he can move on to bigger and better things. This is the self-sacrifice Sheryl brought for him, that even though Sheryl would be unhappy at the end, at least the person she loves would be happy.

This is not a sacrifice anymore, since he knows now. But she , this is right, beholded all of her emotion to not tell him the thruth. However, you miss the other possiblity.
OK, she self sacrified herself before, for him and his future.
But, she also wanted him to forget her, by fear he will stay with her not because he loves her, but because of the circumstances. Looks like Klan did something she shouldn't have to....

Ranka on the other hand, never performed the same self-sacrifice or anything remotely equal to that of Sheryl. She took everything for granted ever since Ozma adopted her into his home. She took Alto for granted regardless of the fact that the two were never on a date, or in a relationship to begin with. She is clouded in her own cocoon that she is completely oblivious to the realities beyond it.

Ranka put her life at risk for him. This is what I call a big sacrifice.
You're all saying this " immature " or "brat" girl but this isn't what a immature person would have do. A childish person would have thought about her first and the other after.No need to tell that going in a battlefield, plus, on the front is out of question.^-^ She didn't do it, instead of that she went there and singed...
Remember the episode 16 when she singed aimo in the battlefield and was almost killed there, but saved thanks to Brera. She said it herself, she wants to protect her loved ones too. Ozma, Alto and everyone else .
She went to Galia IV for what? Not for going to sheryl's concert after what she did with the " endless sky" She avoided a slaughter and save the day !
By the way, the immature brat saved the life of your queen there, you should be more thankful to her

What truth? Did you really understand the dialogue between the two or are you just guessing? Ozma told Alto to search for his own path and protect the woman he loves. It has zero indication for Alto to actually follow Ozma, on the other hand, Ozma indirectly/unintetionally told him to protect Sheryl and possibly search for a cure for her illness before she fades out of existence!

Then, we didn't understand the same thing and no I didn't guess it.
They fighted and after that, Ozma tell him he will go after Ranka, and he said " What about you ?Aren't you just getting along well with the circumstance ? With your feeling as they are now? For what are your wings for? Ranka choose her path, I too will do it, what about you? Where are you going ?
He also said what he's doing is the best way to protect his women or the women he loves. I includ Ranka here since he gone after her...
Ozma indirectly/unintetionally told him to protect Sheryl and possibly search for a cure for her illness before she fades out of existence!

That's your interpretation of what he said.
And since when Ozma knows about sheryl ?
I understood it as Ozma don't count on Alto anymore. He entrusted him to protect Ranka and see what happenned ! You're right just about protecting Sheryl. He could have tell him to stay in Frontier so with Sheryl since HE(Ozma) will protect Ranka.
Alto screamed like crazy because Ozma told him the simple truth.
Ranka leaved, worst, towards the vajra, so Alto didn't protected her.
Ok, it was her decision but how come he just let her be ? Ozma is her brother, so I understand him for holding a grudge maybe, toward alto .
He didn't protected her so Ozma told ,he, will do it. Ozma told him that this is an easy thing that to be with NUNS now. Alto just knows how he is right this is why he screamed like that at the end.
Kawamori did it right. For all people who think Ranka is the most undecisive or brat of Macross, Ozma was the one to show this is not this easy. Ranka choose, you can call her a traitor, but she made a decision. Alto, he, is just accepting the circumstances like a immature person . He doesn't know what to do and for what he is fighting for.
Once he will know it, I expect him to rushes towards Ranka and side with SMS

Moreover, if you think Ranka needs protection, then I am afraid you are dreadfully wrong. She has Berera and an entire homeworld of bugs.

I didn't say Ranka needed protection but that Alto is the one who needs to face his feelings.
Brera could turn to be a bad guy. He is a cyborg so maybe Grace programmed him to act this way towards Ranka. And except ai kun, the others don't seem to be that clever...

And what of Berera? He had expressed a better understanding of Ranka and Alto ever did in the past 20 episodes, and was the one to be there when Ranka needed someone the most. If any pairing should happen between Ranka, Berera would be the rightful choice if they were unrelated (which is still in speculation).

I wonder, what, at the end of the show, would be Berera's reward for sacrificing himself for the sake of Ranka?

Well I will repeat myself and said that I think Brera is forced to act this way towards Ranka. He may have been programmed this way.
But, he also have this gentle feeling towards Ranka so I expect him to be dangerous for her, but at the end learning about what happenned and turn to be a good guy.
But like I already said it countlesss times I'm sure alto will runs towards Ranka so your Brerax Ranka pair is unlikely to happen.
I wonder, what, at the end of the show, would be Berera's reward for sacrificing himself for the sake of Ranka? Being downloaded in a deep space where the name Ranka is unknow

Yeah, and that scene was ruined by a cyborg bodyguard and a horribly placed Vajra child. Very nice Ranka, very nice. That whole scene was yet another sign of Ranka's immaturity taking just everything for granted. Its always about how she enacts what she believes to be the best for everyone without ever considering the feeling of others. What, you think she couldn't pick a better fucking time than 3am in the morning, flanked by a cyborg and a bug, which if I may remind you, just killed Alto's friend?

When you have a serious problem( in her case, indeed, it was one) you have the right to call one of the close friends that you know will help you to deal with it .
3 am or 2 am, i don't see where is the problem here...
I don't know why people think ranka started her confession when Brera showed up !!! She confessed when she was in the VF not when she was on the ground behind Brera, a knife at the hand to prevent Alto to hurt Ranka's vajra friend ai kun !
She did considered alto's feeling since after have she saw how he reacted towards ai kun, she came at the conclusion that he will never go with her, he doesn' t understand her.
She leaved saying him she loved him, thinking he doesn't love her back .
She also thanked him before leaving ,telling he was a big support for her since they met. People here, love to say sheryl has a big heart but don't want to see it for Ranka too ...? Heart broken she find the courage to confess , to thank and to leave.
She didn't call Brera to come for beating the guy who made her act like a fool at times.... I love how they play with her character ...

Never mind that She never supported Sheryl in anything she does nor considered her feelings. On the other hand, Sheryl had been one of Ranka's biggest supporters. What gives? You call that fair. Search your conscious, you seriously call that fair? Ha!

When Sheryl was at the op of her career Ranka could not help her...since she didn't need help.
and yes sheryl was a support for Ranka's dream to sing not for alto(well the episode 12 is a paradox though...) or for her daylife....
Sheryl didn't tell anyone she was dying so I don't know how Ranka could support her.
OK alto didn't know but was there for her...
however, he did know for her being very ill since 18 so he visited her and they talked. Ranka knew sheryl was ill in 15 and she even gave her flowers. Sheryl wasn't that glad to see her though So what do you expect of Ranka ,if sheryl wants more alto's support , Ranka can't do anything....

Your blinded love for Sheryl make you miss a lot of improvement made by Ranka.


Because it was a one-sided affair to begin with. Your blinded love for Ranka makes you miss every failure and shortcomings that is Ranka.

If you say so...

Mike initially did not have a good impression of Sheryl, but:



Towards the end, Mike realized that Sheryl commenced something extraordinary. I already explained how Sheryl was willing to sacrifice herself in order to not become the burdens of Alto, so I won't do it again. Bottom line, Mike told Alto to make up his mind, and when Alto finally found out about Sheryl's illness from Klan (no less because she found something admirable about Sheryl), he made up his mind.

Alto made up his mind ?....
He made up his mind to stay with her because she is dying, yes.
But if you are implying that he made up his mind = he loves sheryl now.....
A big disappointment is waiting for you at the exit ....

Ah, so by your statement, the promises made by Alto and his determination to stay by her side and to become Sheryl's courage should just be taken back, just like that. That is what I mean by inconsistency.

I don't think he will take back his words like that.
Sheryl with her character would not want to stay with a man who does not love her but just stay with her like a duty. She will be the one to break that promise, not him, in letting him go.
Yes,yes you can laugh but .... you will see

If Alto is one to break promises, then yeah, maybe it'd be a good idea for him to stay with Ranka, no less because Alto is equally a moron as Ranka and that Sheryl is too good for him.
- Tak

Again, sheryl will be the one to let him go, he will not break his promise.
But didn't you notice? In the favorite character thread, Sheryl is far, far away from Ranka and Alto's popularity. She is too good for him it seems...

Originally Posted by MaiHikari

You would know: when she is cured and he still wants to be with her. It's the bow on top of the present. The gift itself is still there.

Well, I don't think it will happen but you can wait.
However I can't assure you this thread will still be in activity

Couples argue about nothing and that's what keeps it interesting and fun. As long as they still care about deep inside as we have certainly seen in recent episodes. "Hints" don't make a relationship strong. LOL. Real development does, and Sheryl and Alto has shown true development in their relationship. They both understand each other, support each other, and respect each other for it. Sheryl understands Alto's dream to fly and desire to protect the sky and everyone under it. Alto understands Sheryl's dream to sing. You missed all these developments.

I did say they share something in common that's why Ranka think they're closer.
I talked about hints since people here deny absolutely any trace of romance relationship between alto and Ranka. So if you don't want prooves I will give you hints.
Ranka understands Alto desire to protect the sky too since she knew he was in SMS and and even singed for him and everyone under it. during the battlefield.
Alto understands Ranka's dream to sing too since Aimo episode 3.
You missed all these developments ?

See your own bolded text above. It shows that you carry a double standard in your arguement as long as it's favorable to your Ranka shipping.

Because I said that : It was indeed the right time for a confession. ?
I don't understand why this is a double standard...
It's not because I say this was a good time but he didn't do it, so his(obvious for you ) feelings for her, as a lover, are unknown (except those of a friend) that it's favorable to my ranka shipping.....
you said that at the beginning and I was also talking about the love confession:
You would know: when she is cured and he still wants to be with her
When she is cured ?? I thought it was a terminal disease so you do think she will live. This is a pure speculation. I have done a lot myself but I do not say people carry a double standard in their arguement as long as it's favorable to their shipping.
If she is cured he will stay with her and I will know he truly loves her, that's what you're meaning.
But this is just a argument to favor your shipping since nothing now proves this.

If he doesn't really know anything about her, then he can't have trully love her. Vice versa.

You're fast to jumping at conclusion....
I said more

But it's funny because does he know about sheryl ? We viewers know more than him. she was picked on the streets, she was modified... and it can be worst.
But worst, she doesn't even know it herself.
So if I take your words: If he doesn't really know anything about her, then he can't have trully love her. ... goes for Sheryl too.
I don't know if you avoided it intentionnaly or what but here : It shows that you carry a double standard in your arguement as long as it's favorable to your Sheryl shipping.

The kettle calling the pot black as you've missed all the Sheryl development. It's hard to reason with someone who has a double standard and a selective vision when watching the show. I might have wasted my time here with this post.

It's hard to reason with someone who has a double standard and a selective vision when watching the show

OK.... I can understand you can't stand me for fouling up your Sheryl's win win victory since episode 22 but ...this is rude .
It's hard to respond to it without being mean....
So I will just say it's hard to reason with someone who say things like that
I might have wasted my time here with this post just because my
double standard and a selective vision aren't for sheryl, like you

Originally Posted by Westlo

You know people this episodes wasn't really a Sheryl counter in a way.... I mean she, Sheryl herself didn't really do anything, unlike Ranka she hasn't confessed yet, though I wouldn't be surprised if it ended up with Alto confessing first. Also I really don't know how people missed the kiss scene, it was rather obvious considering the way Alto was holding Sheryl's head, how Alto's head titled as the camera started to pan up and both their heads moved towards each other....

Alto confessing to sheryl first ?......

Also I really don't know how people missed the kiss scene, it was rather obvious considering the way Alto was holding Sheryl's head, how Alto's head titled as the camera started to pan up and both their heads moved towards each other.... ?
Some people here didn't stand up and approach themselves to the screen and made the repeat mode just to see something which wasn't clear and may not have happenned....

@ Seifall

I lol'd when you listed episode 17 as a good thing for your pairing, I was appalled at that and said in IRC something like "If I was an AxR shipper I would be completely pissed at what happened this episode". It did not paint their relationship in a good light period.

It's not because they didn't blushed like fools that it did not paint their relationship in a good light period.
They talked about an important matter and he told her she was doing right. If for you love relationship = always blushing or hugging... well alto is a two timer since the beginning then.

I really suggest you do 2 things, 1) try and understand scenes more, you've completely misinterpreted so many scenes it's not funny.

people really take me as a fool here. One said she wasted her time with her post saying I twisted everything in favor of my pairing(which is not the case), but for her(doing it ) is not a problem..
And you suggest me to understand scenes more? it's not funny ?

Hey, people I'm telling what I think about the show.
but we obviously don't have the same interpretation of a lot of scene.
But who are you to suggest me to understand scenes more? who are you to tell me I have a selective vision ? .....




2 ) Look at things from different angles, you might think I'm a massive SherylxAlto shipper and that I'm blind to everything else but that's not true. I look at everything, if I think the pairing I like is doomed I'll say so, I haven't got a pairing wrong in the last year and I've been watching and reading a lot of romance anime and manga in that period.
[/QUOTE]




you look at everything.... OK

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Alto and Sheryl at least kissed, don´t kid yourself, Mughi.

As for the afterwards scene, for what it´s worth someone on RC posted a very detailed close-up of Alto after the kiss/sex scene. He claims that Alto wears Sheryls top under his jacket, so judge for yourself:

Spoiler for Speculalalation:

I didn't see lips, so the kiss you're so sure happenned is pure speculation.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Eh, it looked plausible at the first look.

Besides, him not wearing his own jacket as before does point to something more intimate having happened. It´s not just me seeing it.

...............

Originally Posted by magnuskn

And he took the jacket off... why do you think that has to do with it being cold outside?

I choose to believe the hints that were laid out point towards some more intimate having happened.

Nevermind.
Tak, MaiHikari,Westlo, I didn't see you say anything about Ozma(Leon is after him, yes but he can always fight against the vajra if they showed up. He leaved his duty ) and is the one who left Frontier ( taking with him SMS ...) to go where Ranka is . But when Ranka left Frontier , she is a traitor, a immature brat, a selfish one who just think about herself ?......

What did you say to me again... ?

Your blinded love for Ranka makes you miss every failure and shortcomings that is Ranka ?

It's hard to reason with someone who has a double standard and a selective vision when watching the show. ?

Look at things from different angles, you might think I'm a massive SherylxAlto shipper and that I'm blind to everything else but that's not true, I look at everything ?

....... I really hope for you that Sheryl ends up with Alto, if not..

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Seifall

....... I really hope for you that Sheryl ends up with Alto, if not..

So you are basically saying, in that wasteland of a post, you are ok with a man who made a promise, then break it, because he was suddenly wowed by moe-wanko... and his pledge should be rendered meaningless because moe-wanko demands it?

So should Alto ends up with Ranka, you honestly do not see a potential problem in that relationship? You honestly think a fruitful relationship would blossom from that? I see... well, ok.

Oh, I never claimed anything regarding a Berera x Ranka pairing (so I'd suggest you stop putting words in my mouth), although I do concern for Berera and what should become of him at the end of the series. But based on what you posted, it becomes clear to me that a sincere concern for his well-being is simply too much for your isolated, selfish mindset. I wonder if that is the mindset of most Ranka-shippers,*shrug* but you are certainly entitled to your right to be wrong.

- Tak

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Seifall

I didn't see lips, so the kiss you're so sure happenned is pure speculation.

About everyone else who is a Ranka shipper on Random Curiousity has admitted that they at least kissed, after watching the HD Raw. Well, maybe not diva, but that just is her being herself.

[Seifall]

I said sheryl would not want stay with a man ,who stay with her, but do not really want to ...
In that case she is the one who lets him go

And about BreraxRanka pairing which you said :

Originally Posted by Tak

Oh, I never claimed anything regarding a Berera x Ranka pairing (so I'd suggest you stop putting words in my mouth), although I do concern for Berera and what should become of him at the end of the series. But based on what you posted, it becomes clear to me that a sincere concern for his well-being is simply too much for your isolated, selfish mindset. I wonder if that is the mindset of most Ranka-shippers,*shrug* but you are certainly entitled to your right to be wrong.

- Tak

I twisted your words again ? , here :

Originally Posted by Tak

Moreover, if you think Ranka needs protection, then I am afraid you are dreadfully wrong. She has Berera and an entire homeworld of bugs.

And what of Berera? He had expressed a better understanding of Ranka and Alto ever did in the past 20 episodes, and was the one to be there when Ranka needed someone the most. If any pairing should happen between Ranka, Berera would be the rightful choice if they were unrelated (which is still in speculation).

ahem really...

[TwilightHack]

Originally Posted by Seifall

And about BreraxRanka pairing wich you said again, I twisted your words, here :

Ugh?

About your other post, you lost me as soon as it started branching off in several directions at once. Try formatting it differently.

[Seifall]

Looks like I was right since the beginning about people here....

@TwilightHack Seems like your friend understood it .
So the real question is do you want or not understand it .....

[TwilightHack]

Originally Posted by Seifall

Looks like I was right since the beginning about people here....

I'm not quite sure what you're talking about, but I prefer someone who's straightforward rather than someone who twists words to their own purpose.

@TwilightHack Seems like your friend understood it .
So the real question is do you want or not understand it .....

The formatting thing was just a suggestion.

As much as I'd love to get involved with whatever debate is going on. Why in the world would I go through the trouble of sifting through a terribly formatted post that isn't even directed at me?

That's too much trouble if you ask me.

[indr0008]

@seifall: please delete one of your two posts....such a long post written twice....

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Seifall

I said sheryl would not want stay with a man ,who stay with her, but do not really want to ...

You are not answering the question. I asked you about Alto, not Sheryl's actions. Learning to read might be a good start for you.

Originally Posted by Seifall

ahem really...

Ha, you are blinded, aren't you. First, that is not a claim, that is setting a precondition. Moreover, I specifically stated that if they are unrelated, which is a highly unlikely scenario, and something I am not enthusiastic about supporting. I wonder if you missed it on purpose?

Moreover, it does not deny the fact that you think almost nothing of Berera. You think he should just drift in space and die. That is your belief. While you are certainly entitled to your opinions, it nonetheless makes you appear both callous and heartless. Chew on that for a second, why don't you? I wonder if that is Ranka's mindset, to simply discard Berera as a tool for her path. I certainly hope for your sake, that it would not be the case.

- Tak

[Seifall]

Originally Posted by TwilightHack

I'm not quite sure what you're talking about, but I prefer someone who's straightforward rather than someone who twists words to their own purpose.

I tried to be as kind as possible but I will take off the gloves.
Your friend said i twisted his words with Brera x Ranka pairing and he said that he never said that but in fact he did....
Ahem... I bet you didn't see it...

Originally Posted by TwilightHack

The formatting thing was just a suggestion.

As much as I'd love to get involved with whatever debate is going on. Why in the world would I go through the trouble of sifting through a terribly formatted post that isn't even directed at me?

That's too much trouble if you ask me.

The same goes for me, why would I bother to debate with someone who just knows how to diss people...

Originally Posted by indr0008

@seifall: please delete one of your two posts....such a long post written twice....

Sheryl fan here, are really impressive....
No but thanks for the suggestion.

People have nothing to reply to me because they don't have that much argument left.
And when you prooves them they said something and after deny it, you're considered as a bad person who twists words to her own purpose ...
OMG.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Seifall

The same goes for me, why would I bother to debate with someone who just knows how to diss people...

That is funny, you have been doing that since the first time you posted here, and I haven't even said a word about that. You are truly something.

Originally Posted by Seifall

People have nothing to reply to me because they don't have that much argument left.

Maybe because wading through your waste of a post is an utterly difficult task to do? Your posts are difficult to read and most of the time consist of nonsense. There are other Ranka fans far more coherent than you, and ones who can actually generate a far healthier debate than anything that came from your keyboard. But, regardless, as I said, believe what you will, you certainly have the right to be wrong.


Yes, let loose the double standards!

- Tak

[MaiHikari]

Originally Posted by Seifall

Sheryl fan here, are really impressive....
No but thanks for the suggestion.

People have nothing to reply to me because they don't have that much argument left.

Not that Sheryl fans have nothing to reply to you but your posts are so poorly constructed, carried double standards, and viewed thing through such a distorted lens, it makes it fruitless to debate further. I have a difficult time reading your posts because they are so long, inconsistent, and full of misunderstood acusations on other posters. Sorry, but I'm gonna have to put you on my ignore if this continues further. I am convinced that you are just going to continue what you do without really reading and understanding what other people are saying.